Bring your karma
Join the waitlist today
HUMBLECAT.ORG

AskHistorians

Last sync: 1y ago
223
Why are European vassal states so stable? (self.AskHistorians)
submitted 1d ago by Dissdent
I am Chinese, and I often encounter a question, "What are the similarities and differences between the enfeoffment system of the Western Zhou Dynasty and the feudal society in Europe?"

I read some books to try to clarify this question, but it did not satisfy me. Hey guys, can you explain this problem? European feudal society obviously showed a tendency towards centralization and enlightened autocracy in the later period, but in the end power flowed to the monarch rather than local vassals.

Why aren't the vassals in Europe, especially Western Europe, keen to annex entire countries? Is it because of the interference of the church? I really want to know this question, thank you guys.

Edit:The reasons I can think of are church interference, complicated inheritance (wars in medieval Europe seem to be often related to inheritance), and foreign threats. The Chinese vassals fought in a mess in order to unify the entire empire.
AutoModerator 1 points 1d ago
Welcome to /r/AskHistorians. **Please Read Our Rules before you comment in this community**. Understand that rule breaking comments get removed.

#Please consider **Clicking Here for RemindMeBot** as it takes time for an answer to be written. Additionally, for weekly content summaries, **Click Here to Subscribe to our Weekly Roundup**.

We thank you for your interest in this *question*, and your patience in waiting for an in-depth and comprehensive answer to show up. In addition to RemindMeBot, consider using our Browser Extension, or getting the Weekly Roundup. In the meantime our Twitter, Facebook, and Sunday Digest feature excellent content that has already been written!


*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.*
nada_y_nada 78 points 20h ago
Just to clarify: is your question about why so few vassals ultimately took over their respective overlords’ kingdoms? Like, “Why did the throne of France never fall to a component duchy like Aquitaine or Brittany?”
hahaha01357 65 points 18h ago
I think on top of this, is OP's perception that Kings in Europe were never (or were rarely) reduced to status symbols (ala Shogunate Japan or Hegemonic Era of Eastern Zhou).
Dissdent [OP] 45 points 18h ago
Yes, the kings of the Zhou Dynasty undoubtedly had real power in the Western Zhou Dynasty, but they were subject to vassals control in the Eastern Zhou Dynasty.

Even more extreme, due to various accidents, it was Qin, who had been marginalized for a long time, and not the more noble vassals, who finally unified the empire.
[deleted] 4 points 17h ago
[removed]
Dissdent [OP] 7 points 17h ago
But the Hundred Years' War seemed to be aimed at succession, and it did not threaten feudalism. The thinking of the British is clearly not "brothers, the time of the French is over, now it's up to us British to rule all."

Also, by then the King of England had signed the Magna Carta of Peace. The British didn't even unify their vassals well within the country.
Dissdent [OP] 45 points 18h ago
It could be part of the problem. What I want to ask is why the Principality of Aquitaine did not try to use war to eliminate other vassals and finally unify France, but the French King completed the centralization. In Chinese history, the king was weak, and only vassals could unify the entire empire.

As you mentioned, Europe has a more complicated succession relationship, does it also keep vassals from trying to annex each other? China's Western Zhou vassals also had complicated relationships, but they seemed to be quite independent in succession to the throne.

I learned from Henry's "Charlemagne and Mohammed" that by the tenth century Western Europe was recovering from the decline of the Mediterranean economy and shifting towards an agrarian economy. Therefore, Western Europe is obviously pursuing stability during this period, which is understandable. After the tenth century, due to the recovery of the economy, there was a trend of centralization in Western European countries, that is, the contradiction between religious power and royal power.

But why, in the end, the central royal family dominated the centralization of power, rather than local vassals achieving it by force?
ParkSungJun 25 points 9h ago
Firstly, I would argue strongly against the idea of "tendency towards centralization." Not every country centralized, nor did they centralize the same way. For instance, the English Parliament arguably gave the vassals more power than they did in other countries, and in the end today I doubt anyone would imagine the monarch of Great Britain having significant political power. Similarly, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth is known for having weak rulers and extremely powerful vassals, as was Sweden and the Age of Freedom, and so on and so forth. Even as late as the 1800s, the Austrian empire devolved significant powers to the Hungarian Diet, which again is a trend away from centralization.
Nor did being a vassal stop people from annexing other countries. The most famous example of course being William the Conqueror, who seized the throne of England despite being a vassal of the King of France (which in turn set off all sorts of fun interactions with inheritance law), but there were many instances of "vassals" taking over large territories, like the Electorate of Brandenburg also ruling over Prussia, the Duchy of Burgundy gradually expanding his titles into the Holy Roman Empire, and so on and so forth.
The reason why conflicts of vassals against their liege were not the total war that more or less took place in China was for multiple reasons, but some leading contributors included the nature of the relationships between liege and vassal as well as the incentive for lieges and vassals to work together.
In Europe, there was an implicit relationship between a king and his vassals in that the vassals could petition the king for help with other affairs. For instance, in the famous duel between Jean de Carrouges and Jacques de Gris, Jean, a vassal of the Count of Normandy, petitioned the king for the right to hold a judicial duel against Jacques de Gris, as Jacques was a close advisor of Jean's de jure lord, the Count of Normandy, who was protecting him from Jean. In effect, there was a whole system of rules and obligations between vassals and their lords that made it a mutually beneficial relationship. Some vassals would also use personal diplomacy to increase their standing at court, and similarly vassals had certain protections against power from the king. In addition, wars were usually more limited in scale as neither side could afford to maintain the wars for long.
In China there was no such system. Prefectures were less "vassals" and more "tributaries" in the sense that the central government had next to no obligations to help or defend any particular part of China. Essentially, the only real set of obligations the central government had to its regional areas was to send tax collectors to take a share of the tax the local region had collected, as well as to occasionally provide support for particular initiatives the central government wanted like flood control or fort construction. Defense was relegated to the border provinces and there was very rarely a powerful central military. Moreover, a "vassal" that did not want to do what the central government wanted faced either being sacked or execution, probably both. They had no protections and no benefits from the central government, so often times the only way out for them was to revolt. And when they did revolt, since there was no reason for them to surrender (as they would likely just be executed anyways), the war was much more "total" in scale. There were exceptions to this of course (ex. the Three Kingdoms period, where the powerful warlords had a feudalesque relationship with their retainers). That said, if one was going to rebel, the only way the war could end would be by taking over the country. So it would be inevitable that only by subjugating both the central government AND the other regional vassals that one could take over.
Dissdent [OP] 5 points 4h ago
Thanks for your answer, it enlightened me. It's just that I still have some doubts about the details, I hope I won't bore you.

There was feudal obligation in the Western Zhou Dynasty in China, but like you said, it was tributary rather than mutual benefit. The Chinese king's pursuit of control over his vassals ended up fueling all-out war instead. So, I would like to understand, in a more typical feudal country, what is the significance of the hierarchy among nobles? For example, do dukes just have more land than marquises, rather than more political power?

And the trend towards centralization that I said, that's just a trend. European kings apparently sought power beyond the limits, only they failed, as happened in England. France can be considered a successful centralized state. I don't know much about the situation in Eastern Europe, thank you for your correction.
Crofucije 0 points 1h ago
>Why aren't the vassals in Europe, especially Western Europe, keen to annex entire countries?

I would dispute that this is the case.

Firstly, European rulers throughout the Medieval period had this concept of being heir to the Roman empire ... from the rulers in Constantinople, the Karolingian rulers, the Habsburgs, even Russia got the idea ... each of them, if in the right circumstance, would have jumped at the opportunity to claim this heritage and rule over Europe.

Secondly, West-European rulers did have ambitions of conquest. The aforementioned Karolings being arguably the most successful ... but then also you have the 100 Years War, The Reconquista, the 30 years war even ... European rulers took every opportunity to try to take more land to add to their domain.

Napoleon, although not a medieval ruler, is also an example for both points from above.

The thing is, conquering isn't easy. They all relied on right circumstances to enable their conquest.

In my opinion, the better question would be how come domains in Europe tended to break apart and divide while Chinese tended not as much?

And this is where the difference in systems of governance and laws come in play. I believe the key differences was made by the presence (or lack of) of the bureaucratic apparatus as well as title inheritance laws. All systems are self-serving and self-perpetuating, they favor action which will result in their continuous existence.

The Chinese bureaucrats' survival depended on the keeping of the Imperial institution alive, but you could have only one of those ideally ... otherwise the Mandate of Heaven goes out the window. So governance was directed towards bringing everyone under the same authority.

Europe didn't have that. Europe had the top ruler binding vassals (and be bound) by feudal laws/contracts and what would be bureaucratic officials in China, here those or similar functions were occupied by vassals. But the vassals' survival and quality of life depended on how beneficial those feudal relations were, and those could change. If the relationship didn't do any good for the vassal, the vassal could decide simply to go their own way, attack neighboring vassals or even try to topple the ruler. By doing so successfully their position in this world would improve.

The bureaucrats in China would not gain much by utilizing the same approach.

...

>and enlightened autocracy in the later period

btw this is thanks to Voltaire learning about Confucius from the Jesuits and becoming a fan. He even asked Catherine the Great to bring in scholars from China to Russia to help her more (didn't happen afaik).
This nonprofit website is run by volunteers.
Please contribute if you can. Thank you!
Our mission is to provide everyone with access to large-
scale community websites for the good of humanity.
Without ads, without tracking, without greed.
©2023 HumbleCat Inc   •   HumbleCat is a 501(c)3 nonprofit based in Michigan, USA.