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When the solar system formed, why didn't the heavier elements accumulate at the center, instead of the lightest ones like hydrogen and helium? (self.askscience)
submitted 3d ago by pilosch
Most galaxies have star systems composed of hydrogen and helium at their center. Why are the centers not composed of heavier elements?
Morall_tach 1008 points 3d ago
The center is only the center because that's where the most material coalesced to create a gravity well. Before that happened, the solar system was a pretty evenly distributed mass of gases and heavy elements.

Slight variations in the distribution of that cloud meant that parts of it condensed together due to gravity, and then drew in more elements, and so on.

Eventually, enough hydrogen and helium collected to ignite a fusion reaction, which made the sun. But it's sort of backwards to say that hydrogen and helium fell to the center. It's more accurate to say that the center is defined as wherever the most hydrogen and helium (and everything else) went.

You're also failing to grasp the scale of the sun. Yes, the sun is 99.9% hydrogen and helium, but the other 0.1% is heavier elements.

That 0.1% weighs more than Jupiter (which is also mostly gaseous). I haven't run the exact numbers, but it seems likely that there is more metal and other heavy elements in the core of the Sun than in the entire rest of the solar system combined.

Edit: did the math.

* Sun: 0.1% heavier materials (1.99E27 kg) *edit: this number might be as high as 2%*
* All inner planets and asteroid belt combined: 1.18E25 kg
* Gas planets: \~8% heavy elements (2.13 E26 kg)
* **Total heavy elements in the sun: 1.99E27 kg**
* **Total heavy elements in the rest of the solar system: 2.25E26kg**

So even using some pretty rough numbers, there's 10 times *(possibly up to 2000 times)* as much heavy material in the Sun as in the entire rest of the solar system.
The_Middler_is_Here 679 points 3d ago
I love this question because it includes my favorite set of graphs.

This is the mass of the sun compared to the planets.

This is the mass of planets compared to each other.

This is the mass of rocky planets compared to each other.

In other words, the solar system is 99.9% sun, 95% of that remaining mass is in the gas giants, two thirds of which is jupiter, and half of what's left after that is earth. Astronomy is basically a giant course in orders of magnitude.
DaoFerret 185 points 3d ago
Thanks for this. I don’t think I ever realized how much Earth out masses the other rocky planets before.
Nvenom8 53 points 3d ago
Venus is really pretty comparable. It would be the best Earth analog out there if not for the crazy hostile atmosphere and related phenomena.
Jack_Mikeson 12 points 3d ago
This might be because we visualise size differences based on the diameter of the planets. Mass and volume scales ~~exponentially~~ cubically with the diameter so we tend to underestimate the mass difference.
CopOnTheRun 6 points 2d ago
Small note, mass/volume scales cubically with diameter, not exponentially.
6unnm 1 points 2d ago
Volume (and roughly mass) scale with the cube of the diameter/radius. They do not scale exponentially.
[deleted] 0 points 3d ago
[removed]
zeCrazyEye 55 points 3d ago
Pretty sure the amount of water on the earth is a negligible amount of mass compared to the rock that makes up the rest of the planet. The deepest part of the ocean is like, 6 miles? The radius of the earth is 4,000 miles.
freeagency 30 points 3d ago
The mass of the entire hydrosphere is only 0.023% of the total mass of Earth. So, not much at all.
SplashMurray 8 points 3d ago
Good question but I don't think it'd even come close, the water is only a thin layer at max around 11km deep but the planet radius is 6371km... so on a pie chart of water vs not water by mass the water wouldn't even be a pixel wide strip.
slagmodian 7 points 3d ago
If the earth was an apple, the distance between the lowest part of the ocean and the highest peak of the tallest mountain would be the tickness of the apples' skin
goj1ra 8 points 3d ago
Statistically speaking there's virtually no water on Earth. It's about 0.02% of Earth's mass.
Rogryg 7 points 3d ago
The water is basically irrelevant. The Earth is the largest rocky body in the solar system; only Venus comes close, and the next largest, Mars, is roughly half the radius of the Earth (and thus approximately 1/8th of the Earth's volume). On top of that, the Earth is also the densest body in the solar system.

Venus is about 95% of the Earth's radius and about 95% of Earth's density, which all told makes it have a mass slightly more than 80% of Earth's (mass is of course proportional to density and to radius cubed). Mars is, as mentioned, about half of Earth's radius and 3/4 of Earth's density, which works out to a mass about 1/10 of Earth's.
ThePowerOfStories 6 points 3d ago
The combined mass of all the water on Earth is barely one-tenth the mass of Pluto.
Watchful1 61 points 3d ago
Wow, I never realized Mars was so small. I always pictured it as close to the size of earth.
veerKg_CSS_Geologist 91 points 3d ago
Venus is earths near twin in size. Mars is like the little sibling. Mars gets a lot more attention these days because it's easier to land probes there given its thin atmosphere and relatively mild -50C weather compared to Venus, with it's 450C temperature and 90x atmospheric pressure.
LowSkyOrbit 31 points 3d ago
I really need to read more about Venus and it's crazy history. So much of it seems near impossible to even be.
4rm57r0n6 10 points 3d ago
Where the surface atmosphere is acidic and it rains lead. I love thinking about how we could possibly send a rover that could not just survive such insane conditions but then also send back useful information. It’s just incredible.
fragilemachinery 32 points 3d ago
It's not *so* much smaller than earth, depending on how you measure it. It's about half the earth's diameter, and has about a little over a third of the surface gravity, but mass scales with volume, which scales with r^3, so at a radius of ~ 1/2 Earth, you'd expect mars to have a mass of (1/2)^3 ~ 1/8 Earth. In reality it's even a bit less massive than that, because on top of being smaller than earth it's also less dense.
lord_ne 17 points 3d ago

> on top of being smaller than earth it's also less dense.

Which intuitively makes sense, less gravity so things are getting compressed less
cadnights 12 points 3d ago
Interestingly, because Earth has oceans it has about the same land area as Mars
Volpethrope 77 points 3d ago
I saw someone say once that the solar system is like 99.7% the Sun, .27% or so Jupiter, and the rest is a rounding error.
Magicspook -33 points 3d ago
Pretty sure you need to recheck your maths :p I don't think it's likely that the solar system consists of >100% stuff.
DWill88 13 points 3d ago
I love these graphs. Thanks for sharing. It’s so fun comparing volume and mass between objects in the solar system (and universe) using charts and scales like this!
codyish 12 points 3d ago
From the perspective of the solar system, the Earth's mass is approximately zero.
Killbot_Wants_Hug 10 points 3d ago
I've never thought about it before, but it seems like it would make sense that most of the solar system is the sun.

You could put matter in the solar system as doing one of three things.

1. Falling into the sun.
2. Leaving the solar system.
3. Balanced between 1 and 2 enough that it's orbiting.

And it's been long enough that everything in the 1 or 2 category is either part of the sun or not in our solar system. So only the things that were balanced are part of the solar system but not part of the sun.
The_Middler_is_Here 10 points 3d ago
Basically, our solar system formed from a big cloud of gas. Once the sun accumulated enough mass it ignited. The solar winds from our sun blew away most of the gas that hadn't fallen in yet. Some stuff had aggregated into balls of stuff and was too heavy to push away. Except for their atmospheres where only very large planets or very distant planets could keep their mostly hydrogen atmospheres.
Salacious_B_Crumb 7 points 3d ago
That last one really makes you think how much a pity it is that Venus didn't turn out habitable.
4rm57r0n6 6 points 3d ago
We’re all just clinging to a “mote of dust” swirling around a spicy beach ball.
moosecaller 1 points 3d ago
Thank you, this is fantastic. Water planets are considered gaseous?
[deleted] 1 points 2d ago
What percent is humans?
The_Middler_is_Here 1 points 2d ago
I forget the math but a youtuber called Isaac Arthur said that earth is about one quadrillionth human brain. So maybe 1 part per 100 trillion or so?
loki130 55 points 3d ago
I checked out of curiosity and the sun is actually about 2% elements heavier than helium; about half of that is oxygen, and most of the rest is carbon, neon, and iron; the iron in the sun alone masses twice as much of the entirety of Jupiter
dukesdj 43 points 3d ago
Just to confirm this, the GONG Model-S uses the stellar metallicity of 0.0196 (1.96%). This is the most up to date linear model of the Sun.
cjameshuff 18 points 3d ago
Yup, there's many, many Earth-masses of iron, silicon, oxygen, etc in the sun. The heavy material *did* accumulate in the center, the planets are only the leftovers.
raincloud82 11 points 3d ago
I really appreciate that you did the math. Thank you.
tctyaddk 3 points 3d ago
What happens to the heavy elements (especially at the Sun's core where they should concentrate due to gravity) when the hydrogen (and eventually helium) around them do the fusion? Do they absorb some stray neutrons, get unstable/radioactive (like wall material of nuclear reactors) and decay, or do they just hang around as plasma until the end of the Sun?
StateChemist 7 points 3d ago
Sun is doing fusion.

Most of that is hydrogen ——> helium

But stars can and do fuse heavier elements also. Everything up to iron with an atomic mass of 56. Aluminum, silicon carbon, oxygen, phosphorous, calcium, nitrogen, All made in stars.

The heavy stuff needs more energetic environments to fuse. Like supernovas or neutron star collisions.
tctyaddk 5 points 3d ago
I know heavy elements need way more energy to fuse, which is present in bigger stars but not our Sun. That's why I did *not* ask if they would *fuse* in our Sun's core, I asked if they would receive neutrons and subsequently decay (*fissure*) into lighter elements, or they stay just as they were sans electrons until the Sun's death.
StateChemist 5 points 3d ago
Ah that is a hell of a question. My assumption would be there is some sort of equilibrium as some things are created and others destroyed but that’s an assumption from my knowledge of how chemical reactions work. Someone more knowledgeable than I will have to educate you on the finer points of stellar physics.
Astrokiwi 4 points 3d ago
They get involved in the nuclear reactions. The CNO cycle is a common fusion cycle where Carbon, Nitrogen, and Oxygen act as catalysts for fusion from hydrogen to helium. This isn't the main way the Sun does it - it's more common for bigger stars - but it does illustrate that the heavy elements aren't just doing nothing all the time.
La_mer_noire 3 points 3d ago
>The center is only the center because that's where the most material coalesced to create a gravity well

I never thought about this! Does it mean that in the center of the galaxy stars are much closer from each other than the sun and it's closest neighbours? Which would make it much more plausible that a civilisation could become multi star-based.
Morall_tach 4 points 3d ago
Yes, and to a shocking degree. Around where we live, there is roughly one star per 19 cubic parsec. In the center of the galaxy, there are as many as 10 million stars per cubic parsec, and did some clusters there are more like 20 million.

That makes the average distance between stars at more like 500 to 800 AU, which is still 12 times the distance between the Sun and Pluto, but if you lived in that area the night sky would never get darker than twilight here on Earth.
Karcinogene 3 points 1d ago
But on the flip-side, it would be harder for life to emerge in the galactic core, because it's a high-energy environment, blasted with extreme radiation and close encounters destabilizing solar systems, with close-by supernovas being more frequent because there are more stars.

It's a good place for advanced civilizations to move to, after they grow up in the quiet suburbs.
Protean_Protein 6 points 3d ago
This is why when stars explode, they make new planets and stars and people and trees and cats and earthworms.
bad_take_ 2 points 3d ago
Where does this 0.1% number come from?
YeahlDid 1 points 3d ago
Well what are we waiting for? Let's go mine the sun!
ATediousProposal 2 points 3d ago
This may or may not be a joke, but it _is_ a possibility under known science. You can check out this video from SFIA for some details on how we might actually accomplish such.

It's futurism on the scale of Dyson Swarms, so not something we're likely to do next year, but it remains neat to think about.
pilosch [OP] 1 points 2d ago
Excellent explanation! I had not thought of it that way before; thank you so much for taking the time to answer, it gives me a deeper understanding of the enormous scale of the sun
Lashb1ade 1 points 3d ago
It does sound as if there is disproportionately more heavy elements in the outer solar system. Why is that?
Morall_tach 0 points 3d ago
There's more of everything in the outer solar system because as the solar system was forming, a lot of the stuff in the inner solar system fell into the sun.

The gas giants are in the outer solar system and they are much, much bigger than the rocky planets in the inner solar system. 8% of Jupiter's mass is still 25 times Earth's mass.

Proportionally, though, I would say that there is more heavy stuff in the inner solar system. There's virtually no gas between Jupiter and the Sun, because it's all either been blown backward by solar wind or trapped by planets. The atmospheres of Earth, Mars, and Venus are completely trivial compared to the amount of gas in the gas giants.
Lashb1ade 3 points 2d ago
You've lost me. You just said that 0.1% of the sun was metal, but 8% of the gas planets are metal. Clearly, there's a bias there. Why is that? If everything started out evenly distributed, why did the sun eat up all the hydrogen but not the metal?
Morall_tach 2 points 2d ago
Oh, I see what you mean. The very simple answer is that the Sun started fusing quite early in the timeline of the Solar System, before planetary formation was complete. The solar wind from that early fusion blew away a lot of the remaining light gases before the planets could capture them.
FrozenReaper -5 points 3d ago
Let's hope they dont find cobalt in there or they'll send the child slaves to mine it
JamesTheJerk 0 points 3d ago
I believe there is more water on/in planet Earth than you've accounted for, although I truly appreciate your comment and the maths. This Wiki link provides the nature of my above suggestion and pertains to water (or a state of water) trapped within the mantle called 'Ringwoodite'. It potentially eclipses the volume of surface water by a few fold at least.
Morall_tach 3 points 3d ago
Even if the Earth were 100% water, it would only change the total amount of heavy elements in the planets by about 2%. The cores of the gas giants vastly outweigh the rocky planets.
Bobbar84 35 points 3d ago
The heavy elements *did* accumulate in the center.

The Sun is so huge and heavy that it's kinda hard to understand.

The rest of the solar system; all the planets, proto-planets, moons, asteroids, comets, dust and gas make up what amounts to a few flecks of dust compared to the Sun.

The Sun came first, and gobbled up *everything*. All that's left over are a few crumbs on the floor. That's *us!*
cdstephens 39 points 3d ago
It’s important to remember how solar system formation happened. The protostellar disc (before the Sun formed) was a mixture mostly composed of hydrogen and helium with trace heavy elements. The chemical composition would have been roughly uniform.

Towards the center of the disc, the Sun eventually formed. When the Sun formed, the process of fusion created an outwards radiative pressure. This pressure drove light elements like hydrogen and helium away from the Sun, meaning that the material closest to the Sun contained a higher concentration of heavier elements. Some planets further away like Jupiter and Saturn, though, have a chemical composition similar to the Sun by virtue of having formed father away (meaning less radiative pressure; they also had higher gravity than Mercury etc. so they could retain lighter elements more easily). Meanwhile, the Sun of course keeps most of its hydrogen and helium.

It’s also important to note that most of the iron etc. in the solar system is indeed contained in the Sun. Really, the main difference is that the Sun retained most of its lighter elements, and meanwhile the abundance of lighter elements on the planets differ significantly (for various reasons). So the explanation really comes down to “what happened to the hydrogen and helium near each planet?”, and “why was the chemical composition of the protostellar disc uniform?”.


The reason why the composition in the protostellar disc was uniform is because it was well mixed, turbulent, and spinning. If the disc were static, then yes all the heavier metals would have sunk towards the center of the solar system over a long period of time. But, this isn’t the only dynamic process in a system like this, and competing forces etc. kept things mixed. In contrast, the conditions of protoplanetary discs allowed for heavier metals to sink towards the center (leading to an iron core in the Earth, for example).
RhynoD 1 points 3d ago
It's my understanding that the consensus from modeling is that Jupiter probably formed significantly closer to the Sun, while Earth formed much farther out, and gravitational disturbances (probably from a flyby of another star) shuffled the planets around to their present orbits.
viridiformica 44 points 3d ago
The premise of your question is wrong. The heavier elements, and everything else, do accumulate at the centre of a solar system - there is simply a lot more helium and hydrogen around than anything else


The question I think you actually should be asking is "why don't rocky planets like earth have any hydrogen and helium"? To which the answer is simply that they aren't massive enough to keep them around


It's easy to get cognitively biased since we developed on earth among heavy elements, but the most common states of matter in the universe are those lighter elements - earth is the 'strange' one
pilosch [OP] 1 points 1d ago
According to my understanding after studying the comments, the reason for the lack of lighter elements on rocky planets was not only due to them not being massive enough to hold on, but also because when the sun began to undergo fusion, the solar winds produced by the newly-formed star effectively "blew" these lighter elements from the orbiting celestial bodies that did not have enough gravitational pull to keep them. Only the sun's gravity was strong enough to hold on, and perhaps Jupiter/other gas giants after that?

Would that be a reasonable explanation?
coldbloodedking 6 points 3d ago
During the early stages of the universe, the Big Bang primarily produced light elements like hydrogen and helium. These light elements were distributed throughout space. As the universe expanded and cooled, gravity started to play a crucial role in the formation of structures, including galaxies, stars, and planetary systems.

Inside massive stars, through nuclear fusion reactions, lighter elements like hydrogen and helium are converted into heavier elements such as carbon, oxygen, and iron. This process occurs during the stellar life cycle, culminating in the star's explosive death as a supernova. The supernova explosion disperses enriched material, including heavier elements, into space.

This ejected material, enriched with heavy elements, then becomes part of interstellar clouds, which are the birthplaces of new stars and planetary systems. As these clouds collapse under the influence of gravity, they form a protoplanetary disk—a rotating disk of gas and dust. Over time, the disk begins to accrete matter and undergoes further condensation and fragmentation, eventually leading to the formation of planets.

In the process of planet formation, lighter elements such as hydrogen and helium tend to accumulate in the outer regions of the disk due to their lower boiling points and higher volatility. Closer to the central star, where it is hotter, the lighter elements are more likely to be in a gaseous state. As a result, the inner planets, like Earth, are primarily composed of heavier elements like rock and metal.

In summary, the distribution of elements in the solar system is a consequence of the nucleosynthesis processes that occurred in stars and the subsequent formation of planets from interstellar material. The lighter elements, like hydrogen and helium, were more abundant in the early universe and became enriched with heavier elements through stellar processes and supernova explosions. The specific distribution of elements in the solar system is influenced by the dynamics and conditions of the protoplanetary disk during planet formation.
hawkwings 9 points 3d ago
Initially, there was hydrogen and helium in Earth's orbit, but Earth's gravity wasn't strong enough to hold on to most of it. Earth ended up with heavy elements, because lighter elements got blown away. The Sun's gravity was strong enough to hold onto its hydrogen and helium.
jcgam 1 points 3d ago
Are the lighter elements that were pushed away detected in a halo around the solar system?
CitricBase 2 points 3d ago
Much of it was blown into the interstellar medium that we've been whizzing through for the last ~4 billion years. Some was captured into Jupiter and the other gas giants. However, it's being sort of constantly replenished by light elements emitted from the sun, solar wind. There's a boundary out there called the *heliopause* outside of which matter is no longer primarily from our own sun.

So, sort of yes, there is a heliosphere of light elements (solar wind), but maybe not in the way you were thinking. The gas from the time of planet formation is long gone by now.
TurtleRockDuane 1 points 3d ago
Or maybe accumulated in the gas giants?
exohugh 2 points 3d ago
All the material in the solar system wants to be at the centre, because of the gravitational attraction. But angular momentum means that some fraction of the initial material (which was a big mix of elements) ended up rotating around the centre instead. But at the start the mix of elements in the Sun and the mix of elements in this disc had identical compositions.

Within this rotating material, the parts further from the hot protostar cooled down. Now, Hydrogen & Helium effectively remain as gasses even in the coldest parts of space. But the other elements can condense into solid ice & rock. Solids (unlike liquids and gasses) are quite good at sticking together, so the solid parts orbiting within that protoplanetary disc coalesced into larger and larger balls, growing like snowballs until they became planets. In the case of the gas giants, they grew enough to have enough gravity to pull some of the hydrogen-helium that was also swirling around the young sun onto their planets. Not so in the case of the terrestrial planets, so it's no wonder they are formed of solids. And then at some point, all the loose gas which wasn't either accreted onto the star or planets got blown away by solar radiation.

So TLDR: Both the Sun and the planet-forming disc started with the same mix of elements, but rocky planets only formed from heavy elements because it's solid (not gaseous) material which sticks together during planet formation.
pilosch [OP] 1 points 1d ago
Good explanation, thank you!
tilla18 -3 points 3d ago
The heavier elements are made within stars from the hydrogen & helium, then dispersed into outer space through supernovae I've always heard. Way more simple elements like hydrogen & helium available to create those heavier elements within stars due to the effects of heat and gravity upon hydrogen & helium.

https://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/educators/lessons/xray_spectra/background-elements.html
pilosch [OP] 1 points 1d ago
I'm sorry but this is not the topic of my question. I understand the process which you are referring to, but our solar system was formed from the remnants of one or more of these supernovae and already includes many of the elements created from them.
Smallchildsyndrome -1 points 2d ago
I believe it was because the heavier elements were formed after the lighter elements, with hydrogen and helium being created in the Big Bang, while the heavier elements were caused by supernova, which take a long time to happen. This is a basic answer, and if anyone more scientifically literate than me wants to expand on this or correct me, please do
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