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I have been watching YouTube videos about The Demon Core. Could anyone help out with some questions I have? (self.askscience)
submitted 22h ago by wotsit_sandwich
Information from video: The Demon Core was stored and transported in some kind of (lead?) container, I assume to protect those around it from radiation exposure.

Q1: Why wouldn't this container also cause criticality? Surly the point of the container is to prevent radiation from "leaking out" so why wasn't it also causing nutrons to reflect back into the core.

Q2 If a container is necessary to prevent exposure how were the scientists able to move the core from the container to the experiment's equipment, i.e. the hemupheres.

Q3 Is the amount of exposure from the core, in the timeframe of preparing and performing the experiment acceptable? (Q3.1) If the core was sitting in a table in a room, could I walk into the room, and sit at the table without serious exposure? Logic tells me this must be the case because scientists and assistants were doing exactly that, and everyone seemed to know that it was safe to be in the room during the experiments.

Q4 As the core reached criticality does the amount of radiation increase steadily
, or does it remain at a safe (acceptable) level right up until the point of criticality where it spikes massively?

Q5. (The last one. Thank you for your patience). If the complete closure of the two hemispheres cause criticality, due to the reflection of the nutrons, why do those same spheres not prevent the radiation from "getting out". It seems contradictory to have total reflection **and** radiation leakage.

Thank you.
RobusEtCeleritas 393 points 22h ago
>Q1: Why wouldn't this container also cause criticality? Surly the point of the container is to prevent radiation from "leaking out" so why wasn't it also causing nutrons to reflect back into the core.

Criticality is extremely sensitive to both the material and the geometry. Lead is a good shield (particularly for photons rather than neutrons), but it's not a very good moderator. And the geometry is not necessarily the same between shielding and a reflector.

>Q2 If a container is necessary to prevent exposure how were the scientists able to move the core from the container to the experiment's equipment, i.e. the hemupheres.

Things like that can be controlled remotely. Or in the case of a critical assembly, the dose rate might not be very high when the system is not near criticality. So each part can be held individually without shielding, and only when they're precisely assembled in a near-critical state does the dose rate become appreciable.

>Q3 Is the amount of exposure from the core, in the timeframe of preparing and performing the experiment acceptable? (Q3.1) If the core was sitting in a table in a room, could I walk into the room, and sit at the table without serious exposure? Logic tells me this must be the case because scientists and assistants were doing exactly that, and everyone seemed to know that it was safe to be in the room during the experiments.

Yes, if it's not near criticality.

>Q4 As the core reached criticality does the amount of radiation increase steadily , or does it remain at a safe (acceptable) level right up until the point of criticality where it spikes massively?

It all depends on the specifics of the setup in question and what's considered "acceptable". As the system approaches criticality from below, the dose rate will increase. More details here.

>Q5. (The last one. Thank you for your patience). If the complete closure of the two hemispheres cause criticality, due to the reflection of the nutrons, why do those same spheres not prevent the radiation from "getting out". It seems contradictory to have total reflection and radiation leakage.

It's not *total* reflection, it's just *enough* reflection that on average, each fission neutron induces at least one more fission reaction. There are still plenty of neutrons which don't induce fission, and/or escape the critical assembly entirely.
wotsit_sandwich [OP] 93 points 21h ago
Excellent. Thank you very much.
loquacious 63 points 19h ago
Something else to note is that after the accidents with the Demon Core, Los Alamos and Sandia Labs instituted strict protocols for any criticality experiments and stopped scientists from doing random manual experiments of the kind that led to the accidents when they were fucking around and finding out while tickling the proverbial dragon.

There's a YT video I saw in the last few days that shows one of the remotely operated devices they built, but I can't seem to find it in my history.

It's basically a tall rack that keeps the parts separated until the scientists clear the room and protected radiation cell and then can bring them together in a much more controllable and precise way instead of - lol - someone holding them apart with a screwdriver and measuring with a handheld micrometer.
BoosherCacow 42 points 16h ago
> while tickling the proverbial dragon.

I can't tell you how much I love it that the person who coined that name (like tickling the tail of a sleeping dragon) was Richard Feynman. What I wouldn't give to sit down and have a beer with him.
[deleted] 9 points 15h ago
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zeetotheex 9 points 12h ago
You should read his couole autobiographies if you haven’t. Such an interesting guy. He had a brief art career and played in a Brazilian street band. He also picked the locks on the file cabinet of the nations nuclear secrets just for fun.
Justsomedudeonthenet 2 points 11h ago
>instituted strict protocols for any criticality experiments and stopped scientists from doing random manual experiments

I'm just picturing a team of scientists sitting in the directors office all going "aww, but we wanted to play with the death ball! It was our turn next!"
Koffeeboy 4 points 14h ago
Q1: One important thing to note is how a system handles the spread of neutrons. Lets use an analogy.

Imagine you are throwing a bouncy ball into a room filled with mouse traps, each loaded with 2 bouncy balls that will also be thrown when set off.

Now imagine you have a 50% chance of hitting a trap with each bounce. if the ball didn't bounce at all you would have a critical situation, each trap activating on average one more trap. sustaining the reaction but not going out of control, this would be what you want for a powerplant (probably not perfectly at critical tho...)

Now if the walls of the room were reflective (threw neutrons back in, like the walls of the demon core), the ball would bounce more times (more chances to start chain reactions) causing an exponential cascade, boom.

Now imagine you make the walls really absorptive, (slows neutrons down, or absorbs neutrons without throwing any back, like lead or water) you can keep the reactions from getting out of control.

In reality you would want your material to not be critical as a default (aka the mouse traps would be more spaced out, 25% chance of collision. Meaning it is up to geometry and wall material to cause it to go critical.
939319 11 points 21h ago
What's the difference between this critical and boom critical? Is there a name for boom critical? Both are prompt critical.
Flo422 16 points 20h ago
As I understand the situation the (main) difference is how fast critically is achieved. Once it is reached the material heats up, if not regulated by some mechanism the material will melt. In a bomb it happens so fast that after melting it vaporizes and loses criticality. If it is a reactor it loses critically from just melting and spreading out. The energy released per second is magnitudes greater in the bomb because more atoms have a chance of splitting until criticality is lost as the density of the material is much higher compared to a reactor.
Type2Pilot 8 points 15h ago
It's not really a problem that the fuel melts, per se, it's that it changes geometry. For example, the LAMPRE used liquid plutonium as fuel, but it was contained in pen-sized tantalum capsules to maintain geometry.

LAMPRE is the Los Alamos Molten Plutonium Reactor Experiment.
RobusEtCeleritas 8 points 17h ago
There's no special name for "boom critical", although it is a case of prompt supercriticality.

*A* major difference is the reactivity feedback coefficients. For a system in which prompt supercriticality is not desired (a reactor, or a critical assembly), you can engineer the materials and geometry such that the reactivity feedback coefficients are negative.

That means that the system naturally responds in a way that goes against any changes in criticality. An example that's specifically relevant to the Demon Core is the temperature coefficient of reactivity.

As the system approaches criticality from below, the dose rate increases, which means the materials that make up the critical assembly heat up. As they heat up, they expand, and as they expand, the system becomes further from criticality, because the average density is decreasing.

In a system like a critical assembly or reactor, this can be enough to make the system subcritical again. And in fact, that's probably what happened with the Demon Core. (And I'll note that this would've happened on a timescale shorter than humans can react and grab things, meaning that the criticality excursion may have stopped itself automatically before anybody touched it.)

In an explosively-driven scenario like in a bomb, the compression of the fissile material due to the blast waves is just too much for the temperature coefficient of reactivity to "save" it from remaining prompt supercritical. Enough energy is released to blow the system apart before it becomes subcritical again.
CountingMyDick 2 points 11h ago
As soon as it goes critical, it starts releasing energy at a huge rate and trying to tear itself apart. The only difference between that and a proper bomb is how much total energy is released. The function of a bomb is to make an assembly prompt supercritical on command and hold it there long enough for a large amount of energy to be released.
exqueezemenow 5 points 21h ago
Just to add, the containers used were made of Magnesium supposedly because they didn't reflect neutrons and dissipated heat.
tacoman202 0 points 16h ago
What would have happened had Louis not separated the hemispheres when he did?
RobusEtCeleritas 1 points 15h ago
Probably nothing different, for reasons explained here.
[deleted] 1 points 14h ago
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[deleted] 0 points 15h ago
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igby1 27 points 20h ago
So the demon core would’ve been used in a third bomb if Japan had not surrendered after the first two.

Were the cores of the first two bombs also called “demon” cores?

And why “demon”? Wikipedia doesn’t say.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon_core
FoldableHuman 84 points 20h ago
It’s called a demon because it was involved in multiple safety incidents which resulted in the loss of life. Humans, being humans, cheekily branded it as the demon core as thought it were cursed or possessed and had some measure of agency in the incidents.
lobster_johnson 30 points 19h ago
The first bomb (Little Boy) was a different type, the "gun-type" design that fired a subcritical projectile of uranium into another subcritical mass that together reached criticality. The Trinity test and the second bomb (Fat Man) were both the implosion-type designs that compressed a plutonium core to criticality using conventional explosives. The demon core was used to study and verify this design.

The demon core got its name from the fact that it seemed unnaturally unlucky and was therefore jokingly implied to be evil. The scientists around the Manhattan Project bandied about imaginative nicknames like these a lot; the experiment that killed Slotin was referred to as "tickling the dragon's tail", for example.

If you're interested in this topic, I recommend Richard Rhodes' Putlizer-winning book The Making of the Atomic Bomb. It's a fantastic read that goes into a lot of detail about the above.
pow3llmorgan 1 points 4h ago
To note: They never tested the gun-type design. They were basically perfectly confident it would work. I always thought that was interesting.
thecaramelbandit 16 points 17h ago
It's called the demon core because it accidentally killed people, on two separate occasions. Like it's weird for one supercriticality accident to happen. Happening twice with the same core is nuts, so obviously it's (metaphorically) a cursed demon.

The Japan bomb cores wouldn't be metaphorical demons because they did what they were supposed to do. Those bombs weren't accidents.
zensunni82 14 points 15h ago
Honestly the absolute disregard for safety in both accidents make me surprised it was only twice.
mcarterphoto 9 points 14h ago
>It's called the demon core because it accidentally killed people,

The core didn't accidentally kill people though - it was human stupidity and hubris - and "showing off" in the case of the 2nd incident. Cores don't kill people, dumb people do (even if they're among the smartest people in earth, apparently!). The core was just minding its own business, and it almost feels like calling it a "demon" was a way of not really facing how preventable those deaths were.

Enrico Fermi told the scientists "they'd be dead within a year" if they kept messing with the thing. He was correct.
jtoomim 1 points 6h ago
Q4. It's important to understand the difference between subcriticality, delayed criticality, prompt criticality.

In a subcritical configuration, each neutron produced by fission causes fewer than one additional neutrons by fission. In e.g. pure Pu-239, each fission from a thermal neutron produces about 2.8836 additional neutrons, so as long as each neutron has less than a 1/2.88 = 34.7% chance of hitting another nucleus and triggering a fission, it won't form a fully self-sustaining chain reaction. But each neutron can still form a temporarily sustained chain reaction. If each neutron has a 33% chance of triggering another nuclear reaction, then we can calculate that each neutron would directly produce an average of 0.95 additional neutrons, and those 0.95 neutrons would produce another 0.903 neutrons in the next generation, et cetera. This turns into a mathematical infinite series whose sum is 19.16, so for every actual neutron produced by a spontaneous fission, we would expect an additional 19.16 neutrons (on average) to be produced by the chain reaction.

That might seem like a lot, but it's not. In a supercritical configuration, each neutron produces more than one additional neutron in the next generation, and the density of neutrons flying around increases exponentially with time. The demon core was about 89 mm in diameter, and thermal neutrons have a speed of about 2.2 km/s, which means that neutrons will either react with another neutron or leave the core within about 40 microseconds. If each neutron produces 1.1 additional neutrons, this means that the number of neutrons in flux at a given time will follow an exponential curve that increases by 10% every ~40 µs, which means that it doubles every 292 µs, or increases by 10.7x every ms. If you have one neutron at t = 0 ms, you'll have 10.7 neutrons at t = 1 ms, 19 billion neutrons at t = 10 ms, 3.89 • 10^20 neutrons at t = 20 ms, and by t = 30 ms the entire core will be a ball of plasma millions of degrees in temperature. Once you go supercritical, the reaction rate will rapidly increase faster than nearly anything can react, and your only protection from a runaway reaction and an explosion is generally the thermal expansion of the core itself reducing the core's density and reactivity to the point where the reaction is no longer supercritical.

But there's a caveat to that criticality threshold: of those 2.8836 additional neutrons, about 0.0065 are *delayed neutrons*, whereas only 2.8771 are *prompt neutrons*. These delayed neutrons don't come from immediate fission of a Pu-239 atom, but instead come from the radioactive decay of a fission product. This delay could be a millisecond, an hour, or a month long, depending on the half-life of the fission product in question. If the configuration of the reactor is such that the delayed neutrons make the difference between the reactor being subcritical and supercritical, then we call that configuration *delayed criticality*, as opposed to the prompt criticality described in the above paragraph. Instead of the time constant of the exponential growth function being determined by the very short travel time of a neutron, the time constant becomes roughly equal to the half-life of the isotopes in question. This slows down the reactor's supercritical chain reaction growth rate into something typically on the order of minutes to hours, which can easily be managed by humans, machines, or mechanisms of intrinsic stability (e.g. thermal expansion of the core or moderator). Nuclear reactors operate in delayed criticality. Plutonium makes only about 1/3 as many delayed neutrons as U-235 does, so the transition from delayed critical to prompt critical is much shorter for Pu than for U-235. This may have contributed to the frequency of accidents with the Pu-based demon core.

So getting back to your question:

> As the core reached criticality does the amount of radiation increase steadily , or does it remain at a safe (acceptable) level right up until the point of criticality where it spikes massively

Both. As it approaches criticality, the amount of radiation increases steadily, but it still remains at a safe (low) level as long as it's still subcritical. But as soon as its reactivity goes prompt critical, even if by only a fraction of a percent, the radiation starts to get very big very quickly, usually only limited when the heat from the reaction causes the core to expand to the point where it's no longer critical.
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