Blind and Visually Impaired Community
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Idea of making an echolocation device worth pursuing? (self.Blind)
submitted 7y ago by AFlyingGoat
Hi,
I was thinking of possibly making something that could help blind people navigate themselves as a project. I was reading about how some use a sort of echolocation, and was wondering if perhaps a device that uses cameras to gauge depth, then translated this to the user via sounds/vibrations to represent this 'depth-map' would be of any use?
As a sighted person, I am not really sure what technologies would be useful and what would be redundant to the tools people already use.
I was thinking that something like this could be more useful for people in developing countries, where they may not have access to advanced training or service dogs? I've seen a handful of similar, low-cost projects, but they used sensors, not cameras, and I couldn't find news of them growing successful.
Do you think this is something worth pursuing? It would be difficult to work on, but it is after all a project.
Thank you.
I was thinking of possibly making something that could help blind people navigate themselves as a project. I was reading about how some use a sort of echolocation, and was wondering if perhaps a device that uses cameras to gauge depth, then translated this to the user via sounds/vibrations to represent this 'depth-map' would be of any use?
As a sighted person, I am not really sure what technologies would be useful and what would be redundant to the tools people already use.
I was thinking that something like this could be more useful for people in developing countries, where they may not have access to advanced training or service dogs? I've seen a handful of similar, low-cost projects, but they used sensors, not cameras, and I couldn't find news of them growing successful.
Do you think this is something worth pursuing? It would be difficult to work on, but it is after all a project.
Thank you.
fastfinge 3 points
I think the poster in this thread:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Blind/comments/3kxjim/waterfall_soundscape/
might have been thinking of something similar? Anyway, you might find the discussion there interesting.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Blind/comments/3kxjim/waterfall_soundscape/
might have been thinking of something similar? Anyway, you might find the discussion there interesting.
AFlyingGoat [OP] 2 points
Thanks, that looks interesting. It's a good sign that a similar idea is being pursued by someone else, and perhaps with some hard work and low-cost components this could be a useful tool :)
theundeadelvis 1 points
$1 might be related to what you're thinking.
geoffisblind 3 points
It would certainly be interesting... I can tell you that I am personally very wary of trusting a piece of technology over my cane. A cane doesn't fail unless it snaps, an electronic device is subject to battery life, glitches, and other kinds of equipment failure. I'm a fan of keeping things simple and a cane has been working for me. I do like trying new things out but putting obstacle detection and avoidance in the hands of an electronic device is not something I would personally do. I would be interested to see what you come up with though if you pursue it, I've seen a few posts here from people wanting to reinvent or replace the white cane as a project either personal or for some kind of university related assignment.
While the ideas are very cool, in a way I look at trying to replace or reinvent the cane as sort of as trying to replace or reinvent the wheel. Canes work very well and they aren't subject to electronic failure. That's not to say that there isn't room for innovation but the when your safety and mobility hinge on a battery it's not a good thing. I think the white cane will always be a staple of orientation and mobility and I know I'm not alone in this thinking.
Something I think a lot of people don't look at is where the cane fails.
Places where the cane is very effective are on flat surfaces and finding obstacles in the way. I really don't have failures here, it is more or less 100% effective.
However the cane has a few obvious problems. The first is that it does not warn me of overhanging obstacles like tree branches or low signs. It's not uncommon for me to run into things like that. Having a system that could warn me of overhead obstacles would definitely spark my interest. I always thought something like Google Glass with a camera at eye level that could detect obstacles overhead would be really nice.
Your idea is a good one but it would likely be very complicated and I know I'm not alone in being cautious about putting mobility in the hands of electronics. That's not to say I don't love my accessible technology... I love things like mobility GPS systems like the Trekker Breeze, but the Trekker doesn't replace my cane, it supplements it.
In short I think the concept is super cool, and it would be nice if you could figure something out but I don't know how many people would jump on the idea of replacing their canes/ dogs. I know you said you wanted to try the idea in a developing area type scenario but that may pose its own set of problems.
Not trying to discourage you, I'm just stating some of the realities that I personally face. You may hear differently from others, but that's what data collecting is all about :)
I love that so many people are trying to develop new mobility solutions for the blind/ visually impaired community. Innovation is definitely needed and I think there is a lot of promise on the mobility side of things in the cane/ dog supplement market. Good luck, and please keep us updated, I love hearing about these projects :)
While the ideas are very cool, in a way I look at trying to replace or reinvent the cane as sort of as trying to replace or reinvent the wheel. Canes work very well and they aren't subject to electronic failure. That's not to say that there isn't room for innovation but the when your safety and mobility hinge on a battery it's not a good thing. I think the white cane will always be a staple of orientation and mobility and I know I'm not alone in this thinking.
Something I think a lot of people don't look at is where the cane fails.
Places where the cane is very effective are on flat surfaces and finding obstacles in the way. I really don't have failures here, it is more or less 100% effective.
However the cane has a few obvious problems. The first is that it does not warn me of overhanging obstacles like tree branches or low signs. It's not uncommon for me to run into things like that. Having a system that could warn me of overhead obstacles would definitely spark my interest. I always thought something like Google Glass with a camera at eye level that could detect obstacles overhead would be really nice.
Your idea is a good one but it would likely be very complicated and I know I'm not alone in being cautious about putting mobility in the hands of electronics. That's not to say I don't love my accessible technology... I love things like mobility GPS systems like the Trekker Breeze, but the Trekker doesn't replace my cane, it supplements it.
In short I think the concept is super cool, and it would be nice if you could figure something out but I don't know how many people would jump on the idea of replacing their canes/ dogs. I know you said you wanted to try the idea in a developing area type scenario but that may pose its own set of problems.
Not trying to discourage you, I'm just stating some of the realities that I personally face. You may hear differently from others, but that's what data collecting is all about :)
I love that so many people are trying to develop new mobility solutions for the blind/ visually impaired community. Innovation is definitely needed and I think there is a lot of promise on the mobility side of things in the cane/ dog supplement market. Good luck, and please keep us updated, I love hearing about these projects :)
yodathewise 2 points
It doesn't have to replace the cane. It could be another aid that provides more data points for avoiding low-hanging branches or getting a sense of a place beyond a cane's reach.
[deleted] 1 points
[deleted]
AFlyingGoat [OP] 1 points
Thanks so much for the detailed response! What you say makes sense, and it is pretty much impossible to beat the reliability (and affordability) of a cane.
Could you please explain a little more with regards to places where canes or guide dogs are a bit weaker?
I was thinking something with cameras mounted at eye-level, like Google Glass, could work, but what exactly would it be useful for?
Could you please explain a little more with regards to places where canes or guide dogs are a bit weaker?
I was thinking something with cameras mounted at eye-level, like Google Glass, could work, but what exactly would it be useful for?
geoffisblind 5 points
I accidentally mistook /u/yodathewise for you for a second :) I actually responded to them so I'll just move that comment here and elaborate on your questions.
Here's that comment...
******
In a thread with a similar idea I made a few points, $1. I would also look at the post that /u/fastfinge linked to. I think the trouble with having multiple obstacle detection devices giving information is you risk sensory overload.
I'll give an example. I am an urban traveler, I am on public transit a lot and the areas I travel in are loud. So in addition to my impaired vision I also have somewhat limited use of the sense I use most to compensate for my low vision. As a result I have to pay extra close attention to the sounds around me to determine what could be an immediate threat. If I don't do this then I am risking life threatening mistakes. Now add something that sounds or vibrates into the mix that doesn't provide a whole lot more information than my cane and it ends up as a distraction.
I would also be concerned about a device false alerting me to something that isn't there and causing confusion. Electronics are subject to interference, glitches, etc. You also said this device could potentially help with areas that a cane can't reach. Just from my experience using a cane everyday for just over a year now, my cane is 60 inches long, it alerts to obstacles a few feet in front of me at my height. Things out of its reach are not pertinent to my next step. The way I was taught to cane travel was to be aware of the turns I need to make and to avoid obstacles on an as detected basis. I would imagine a dog is able to assess multiple obstacles in series and work out a plan, but dog travel is very different from cane travel. Like I said above, I have a lot of variables to manage in my head:
* The next step, is there an obstacle?
* The next turn to get to my destination, where am I going?
* The intersection
- What type of intersection is it?
- 4 way stop?
- 4 way lighted?
- T intersection?
- What is the orientation of the T?
- How is traffic at the T controlled?
* What is traffic doing?
- Is it busy?
- Are drivers being responsible?
* What are pedestrians doing?
* Buses/trains
-When is my bus/train coming?
-Where is it picking up passengers?
-Where am I getting off?
I have to manage all of this when I'm traveling, and often times I have to be thinking about several of these variables at once. I already use my cane, so obstacle detection is down, and my GPS handles turn by turn for me in unfamiliar environments. The rest comes down to problem solving skills and focus. This is where my concern about having multiple things trying to get my attention comes from.
I do understand the idea of having backups. However I don't like to do this by having lots of different systems. I always carry a messenger bag with me that has a spare white cane and a backup power supply for my phone so that I'm not without GPS if I need it.
Another point I made in the thread I linked is figuring out you would mount it to keep the cameras steady, walking would shake the camera a lot. To keep it steady you probably have to figure out a gimbal or digital stabilization system. How would the cameras work in low light? Would you have to use IR? Unless you are using some pretty advanced IR cameras, how would you handle IR illumination? If you do use gen III or IV IR technology how would you make it affordable to roll out to the masses? Would the cameras have to autogate to compensate for light entering from streetlights or daylight if you went with IR to compensate for the low light issue? Would there have to be two cameras? The market is full of very expensive technology for the blind that isn't accessible to a lot of people because of the price barrier. Would you be able to make it accessible to people who don't have thousands of dollars in disposable income?
I'm not trying to discourage you, I'm just pointing out problems a real world user may face with the technology.
Again I would encourage you to explore the idea of overhead obstacle detection, because there is no clear solution for that right now. Everyone I've asked about overhead obstacles has basically just told me that it's unavoidable unless I look into a dog, in which case the dog should detect overhead obstacles and move me.
I would really look into the overhead system because it will provide pertinent information that cane travelers currently do not have. It wouldn't distract because it wouldn't be trying to alert to things that the user has already been made aware of by their cane or will be made aware of in the next step. It would be a less complicated system, and it would probably be less expensive to produce. If nothing else it could be a fantastic jumping off point that you can perfect and then incorporate new features into to make it a more advanced tool.
I really hope this doesn't come across as discouraging, I sincerely hope you are able to do something cool if you pursue this I'm just trying to give you honest feedback. Like I said above, I love my mobility technology, and I love hearing about these projects, it's incredibly cool and exciting. Again good luck :) Please keep us posted on what you do!
******
To address your other questions...
So, in my experience cane travel is difficult on rough surfaces like grass. It tends to get caught in it. Similar issues arise on brick/ cobblestone as well as on uneven pavement. Cane travel is also much slower than dog travel and it is much less fluid.
I don't have a dog yet. I actually just found out that I have been placed in training for June 2016 at one of the schools in the US (so excited!). I unfortunately can't give you any first hand insight though because my experience walking with a guide dog is limited to about 1 hour with a representative from the school I'm going to. I can tell you from my conversations with others who are guide dog users that you have to be careful about certain things. You have to be aware of the weather and how long you are going to be exposing the dog to the conditions. Too hot or too cold is bad. You also have to be aware of how much you have worked the dog that day, you have to be aware of fatigue of the dog, water, food, when the dog needs relief. Basically you have to be careful because it is a living creature and it needs to be cared for, unlike a cane which you can use all you want without worrying about overworking it because it's a folding piece of aluminum with reflective tape on it. I'm sure that there are things I'm missing. If you are still working on this project or are still interested in it I can get back to you when I complete training and have some experience under my belt. Otherwise if anyone is a current or former guide dog handler here, please correct me if I'm wrong and expand on anything necessary.
The device I mentioned would be useful for detecting overhead obstacles which a cane does not alert to. I expanded on it in the comment that I accidentally originally wrote to the other person.
Anyway, I hope all of this helps, let me know if you need anything else :)
Edit: Fixed link
Here's that comment...
******
In a thread with a similar idea I made a few points, $1. I would also look at the post that /u/fastfinge linked to. I think the trouble with having multiple obstacle detection devices giving information is you risk sensory overload.
I'll give an example. I am an urban traveler, I am on public transit a lot and the areas I travel in are loud. So in addition to my impaired vision I also have somewhat limited use of the sense I use most to compensate for my low vision. As a result I have to pay extra close attention to the sounds around me to determine what could be an immediate threat. If I don't do this then I am risking life threatening mistakes. Now add something that sounds or vibrates into the mix that doesn't provide a whole lot more information than my cane and it ends up as a distraction.
I would also be concerned about a device false alerting me to something that isn't there and causing confusion. Electronics are subject to interference, glitches, etc. You also said this device could potentially help with areas that a cane can't reach. Just from my experience using a cane everyday for just over a year now, my cane is 60 inches long, it alerts to obstacles a few feet in front of me at my height. Things out of its reach are not pertinent to my next step. The way I was taught to cane travel was to be aware of the turns I need to make and to avoid obstacles on an as detected basis. I would imagine a dog is able to assess multiple obstacles in series and work out a plan, but dog travel is very different from cane travel. Like I said above, I have a lot of variables to manage in my head:
* The next step, is there an obstacle?
* The next turn to get to my destination, where am I going?
* The intersection
- What type of intersection is it?
- 4 way stop?
- 4 way lighted?
- T intersection?
- What is the orientation of the T?
- How is traffic at the T controlled?
* What is traffic doing?
- Is it busy?
- Are drivers being responsible?
* What are pedestrians doing?
* Buses/trains
-When is my bus/train coming?
-Where is it picking up passengers?
-Where am I getting off?
I have to manage all of this when I'm traveling, and often times I have to be thinking about several of these variables at once. I already use my cane, so obstacle detection is down, and my GPS handles turn by turn for me in unfamiliar environments. The rest comes down to problem solving skills and focus. This is where my concern about having multiple things trying to get my attention comes from.
I do understand the idea of having backups. However I don't like to do this by having lots of different systems. I always carry a messenger bag with me that has a spare white cane and a backup power supply for my phone so that I'm not without GPS if I need it.
Another point I made in the thread I linked is figuring out you would mount it to keep the cameras steady, walking would shake the camera a lot. To keep it steady you probably have to figure out a gimbal or digital stabilization system. How would the cameras work in low light? Would you have to use IR? Unless you are using some pretty advanced IR cameras, how would you handle IR illumination? If you do use gen III or IV IR technology how would you make it affordable to roll out to the masses? Would the cameras have to autogate to compensate for light entering from streetlights or daylight if you went with IR to compensate for the low light issue? Would there have to be two cameras? The market is full of very expensive technology for the blind that isn't accessible to a lot of people because of the price barrier. Would you be able to make it accessible to people who don't have thousands of dollars in disposable income?
I'm not trying to discourage you, I'm just pointing out problems a real world user may face with the technology.
Again I would encourage you to explore the idea of overhead obstacle detection, because there is no clear solution for that right now. Everyone I've asked about overhead obstacles has basically just told me that it's unavoidable unless I look into a dog, in which case the dog should detect overhead obstacles and move me.
I would really look into the overhead system because it will provide pertinent information that cane travelers currently do not have. It wouldn't distract because it wouldn't be trying to alert to things that the user has already been made aware of by their cane or will be made aware of in the next step. It would be a less complicated system, and it would probably be less expensive to produce. If nothing else it could be a fantastic jumping off point that you can perfect and then incorporate new features into to make it a more advanced tool.
I really hope this doesn't come across as discouraging, I sincerely hope you are able to do something cool if you pursue this I'm just trying to give you honest feedback. Like I said above, I love my mobility technology, and I love hearing about these projects, it's incredibly cool and exciting. Again good luck :) Please keep us posted on what you do!
******
To address your other questions...
So, in my experience cane travel is difficult on rough surfaces like grass. It tends to get caught in it. Similar issues arise on brick/ cobblestone as well as on uneven pavement. Cane travel is also much slower than dog travel and it is much less fluid.
I don't have a dog yet. I actually just found out that I have been placed in training for June 2016 at one of the schools in the US (so excited!). I unfortunately can't give you any first hand insight though because my experience walking with a guide dog is limited to about 1 hour with a representative from the school I'm going to. I can tell you from my conversations with others who are guide dog users that you have to be careful about certain things. You have to be aware of the weather and how long you are going to be exposing the dog to the conditions. Too hot or too cold is bad. You also have to be aware of how much you have worked the dog that day, you have to be aware of fatigue of the dog, water, food, when the dog needs relief. Basically you have to be careful because it is a living creature and it needs to be cared for, unlike a cane which you can use all you want without worrying about overworking it because it's a folding piece of aluminum with reflective tape on it. I'm sure that there are things I'm missing. If you are still working on this project or are still interested in it I can get back to you when I complete training and have some experience under my belt. Otherwise if anyone is a current or former guide dog handler here, please correct me if I'm wrong and expand on anything necessary.
The device I mentioned would be useful for detecting overhead obstacles which a cane does not alert to. I expanded on it in the comment that I accidentally originally wrote to the other person.
Anyway, I hope all of this helps, let me know if you need anything else :)
Edit: Fixed link
AFlyingGoat [OP] 1 points
Once again, thank you for your super detailed response.
I'll look into solutions for the overhead sensor that balance cost and function (since it only needs to have a range of, say, 2-3 feet).
Last question, would a tool that helps monitor traffic for crossing the street be of any use?
I'll get to work on the overhead tool, but if I get the sensing technology down, it would be interesting to try out.
Thanks
Edit: I took a look at the link you provided, and I think I'll also look at creating a GPS system much cheaper than the Trekker. What kind of accuracy ranges are you looking for? Would <3m suffice?
I'll look into solutions for the overhead sensor that balance cost and function (since it only needs to have a range of, say, 2-3 feet).
Last question, would a tool that helps monitor traffic for crossing the street be of any use?
I'll get to work on the overhead tool, but if I get the sensing technology down, it would be interesting to try out.
Thanks
Edit: I took a look at the link you provided, and I think I'll also look at creating a GPS system much cheaper than the Trekker. What kind of accuracy ranges are you looking for? Would <3m suffice?
geoffisblind 2 points
Yeah 2-3 feet should be fine for overhead. So traffic monitoring is a tricky situation because there are a lot of variables and different situations.
I listen to traffic and judge it as either parallel or perpendicular traffic from where I'm facing. At lighted intersections I cross when my nearside parallel traffic goes. So if I'm walking on the right side of the road that would be the traffic coming from behind me. This works pretty well and is safe if you are paying attention. At stop signs I will either wait for "all quiet" or I will cross with a nearside parallel "blocker car." Basically if you cross with a car that blocks the intersection then no car moving perpendicular to you will even try to enter the intersection with you in it. I hope I'm explaining that well.
I talked a lot above about the simplicity and reliability of a cane above and I think that also applies to general Orientation and Mobility skills. I worked with instructors to learn how to audibly analyze intersections and different traffic situations and those skills are priceless parts of my mobility system. Cane skills are just the first part of learning how to get around with a visual impairment, that's where the rest of the O&M training comes in.
I think you'll run into a similar problem with replacing the cane as you will with a traffic analysis system where those with refined O&M skills will prefer to use their judgement over trusting an electronic device.
I think you'd also run into issues with the actual traffic analysis part of it. There's a lot of cars, irregular roads and intersections, different intersection control systems, etc. The closest we have gotten to accessible intersections is audible signals, and particularly in my area they are limited. Even with an audible signal I still find myself double checking. I don't know what you have in mind, it may work. I'd just say that for me personally I probably wouldn't add a device that analyzed traffic to my system because I'd prefer to do it myself using my best judgement. I will just add one thing and say that cars are getting quieter, hybrids in particular are a bit of a concern because they are pretty much dead quiet under a certain speed and they are kind of hard to detect. A solution for this may be necessary at some point in the future, for now I'm just being extra cautious.
Anyway, hope this helps :)
I listen to traffic and judge it as either parallel or perpendicular traffic from where I'm facing. At lighted intersections I cross when my nearside parallel traffic goes. So if I'm walking on the right side of the road that would be the traffic coming from behind me. This works pretty well and is safe if you are paying attention. At stop signs I will either wait for "all quiet" or I will cross with a nearside parallel "blocker car." Basically if you cross with a car that blocks the intersection then no car moving perpendicular to you will even try to enter the intersection with you in it. I hope I'm explaining that well.
I talked a lot above about the simplicity and reliability of a cane above and I think that also applies to general Orientation and Mobility skills. I worked with instructors to learn how to audibly analyze intersections and different traffic situations and those skills are priceless parts of my mobility system. Cane skills are just the first part of learning how to get around with a visual impairment, that's where the rest of the O&M training comes in.
I think you'll run into a similar problem with replacing the cane as you will with a traffic analysis system where those with refined O&M skills will prefer to use their judgement over trusting an electronic device.
I think you'd also run into issues with the actual traffic analysis part of it. There's a lot of cars, irregular roads and intersections, different intersection control systems, etc. The closest we have gotten to accessible intersections is audible signals, and particularly in my area they are limited. Even with an audible signal I still find myself double checking. I don't know what you have in mind, it may work. I'd just say that for me personally I probably wouldn't add a device that analyzed traffic to my system because I'd prefer to do it myself using my best judgement. I will just add one thing and say that cars are getting quieter, hybrids in particular are a bit of a concern because they are pretty much dead quiet under a certain speed and they are kind of hard to detect. A solution for this may be necessary at some point in the future, for now I'm just being extra cautious.
Anyway, hope this helps :)
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