Blind and Visually Impaired Community
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Do the blind have any mindmap tools? Would they find this useful, what I've used for the last 3 years and am considering new ways people could use it? (self.Blind)
submitted by BenRayfield
This is an experimental software I will soon opensource, for navigating and editing large webs of named lists.
I have 33,000 lists. Each has a name (and optionally edit its definition or other file or large data). Each list is names of other lists and are navigated and edited that way. I've organized my life around these. I need it. I'm trying to expand it to the browsers of mobile phones. Imagine 4 lists. 2 of them are stacks, and 2 are the lists of whats selected in those stacks. Everything is both a short phrase and a list of short phrases. I keep in it: bookmarks, todo lists, whats related to what else in my research, people and who I met them related to who else, programming tools, paths on my harddrive, and generally connections between prioritized lists about anything. The newest software (not yet opensourced as a few bugs remain) does versioning every 15 minutes and auto saves every 1 minute, that change exists for any name/phrase. Its extremely useful to me and I expect will be for millions of people when I simplify it a little more. I've made it so simple, it could soon be useful to even the blind. I'm an artificial intelligence programmer and look for things that an AI, which has no senses such as sight, could learn to use, so I happened to think of how it might be useful to the blind. The commands that describe the navigation through this, which I normally do with mouse drag-and-drop, are:
flip, push, pop, up, down, in, out give, get, fly, fall, kill
* flip (to the other stack and selected list)
* push (ghost)
* pop (same as out)
* up (scroll toward higher)
* down (scroll toward lower)
* in (ghostbuster)
* out (same as pop)
* give (copy to the other stack and list)
* get (copy from the other stack and list)
* fly (move toward higher)
* fall (move toward lower)
* kill (remove a connection between 2 things)
What do you think? Could this be useful to the blind in organizing webs of lists? What kind of features would motivate the blind to use it?
I have 33,000 lists. Each has a name (and optionally edit its definition or other file or large data). Each list is names of other lists and are navigated and edited that way. I've organized my life around these. I need it. I'm trying to expand it to the browsers of mobile phones. Imagine 4 lists. 2 of them are stacks, and 2 are the lists of whats selected in those stacks. Everything is both a short phrase and a list of short phrases. I keep in it: bookmarks, todo lists, whats related to what else in my research, people and who I met them related to who else, programming tools, paths on my harddrive, and generally connections between prioritized lists about anything. The newest software (not yet opensourced as a few bugs remain) does versioning every 15 minutes and auto saves every 1 minute, that change exists for any name/phrase. Its extremely useful to me and I expect will be for millions of people when I simplify it a little more. I've made it so simple, it could soon be useful to even the blind. I'm an artificial intelligence programmer and look for things that an AI, which has no senses such as sight, could learn to use, so I happened to think of how it might be useful to the blind. The commands that describe the navigation through this, which I normally do with mouse drag-and-drop, are:
flip, push, pop, up, down, in, out give, get, fly, fall, kill
* flip (to the other stack and selected list)
* push (ghost)
* pop (same as out)
* up (scroll toward higher)
* down (scroll toward lower)
* in (ghostbuster)
* out (same as pop)
* give (copy to the other stack and list)
* get (copy from the other stack and list)
* fly (move toward higher)
* fall (move toward lower)
* kill (remove a connection between 2 things)
What do you think? Could this be useful to the blind in organizing webs of lists? What kind of features would motivate the blind to use it?
roygrubb 3 points 6y ago
I am sighted and I came here because I saw a reference to this on Twitter and am a regular user of mindmaps. I also curate a wiki about mind mapping and other such techniques called WikIT.
Five years ago, a blind person on Twitter asked about products to help him mind map. He "will need to do many mind maps for a course" he wrote, and "do you know anything on Pictorial Guides?? it's another thing i need to use in this economics course. thanks!"
I and many others came up with some ideas, and I added this article with all the information we collected for that person to the wiki: http://www.informationtamers.com/WikIT/index.php?title=Mind_mapping_for_people_who_are_blind We didn't find any perfect solution, as you can imagine, but there are some ideas.
I wasn't aware of this subreddit before, but now, it seems that members of it may find the article interesting. I will link the article back to here, as well.
Five years ago, a blind person on Twitter asked about products to help him mind map. He "will need to do many mind maps for a course" he wrote, and "do you know anything on Pictorial Guides?? it's another thing i need to use in this economics course. thanks!"
I and many others came up with some ideas, and I added this article with all the information we collected for that person to the wiki: http://www.informationtamers.com/WikIT/index.php?title=Mind_mapping_for_people_who_are_blind We didn't find any perfect solution, as you can imagine, but there are some ideas.
I wasn't aware of this subreddit before, but now, it seems that members of it may find the article interesting. I will link the article back to here, as well.
fastfinge 3 points 6y ago
First of all, most readers here are blind. Using words like "they" comes off as slightly condescending.
Second, this sounds super, super confusing. Back when I used to organize notes, I was deeply in love with hierarchical outliners like $1. When that went away in...2005, I guess...I just started making folders on disc full of text files. Not as easy to deal with, but effectively did the same thing. That's the only form of "mind mapping" I ever did, or ever felt I needed. However, based on the entirely graphical mind mapping software packages on the market today, it's entirely possible I don't understand the concept.
At the moment, though, I don't bother to organize anything into any system at all. Sounds crazy, I know! But one huge advance in the past several years is that text based keyword search is just blazingly fast! In spotlight on mac, or the start menu of Windows 10, I can type "cook chicken", and have every text file I've ever created with those words pop up in less than a second. Same goes for my GMail; I've kept and imported every email I've ever gotten or sent since 1998, and Google can search my hundreds and thousands of emails in just a few seconds. So when searching is so fast and accurate, it seems utterly pointless for me to spend time thinking up reasonable folder structures and file names for things. Just stick it anywhere, and name it anything, and search will find it next time I want it. This has freed up vast sections of my brain formerly devoted to remembering file paths or other organizational structures. It has also allowed me to save absolutely everything, because I no longer have to worry about where to put it, or how to organize it. If I ever want it, assuming I can remember one or two vaguely associated words, it's there instantly.
Second, this sounds super, super confusing. Back when I used to organize notes, I was deeply in love with hierarchical outliners like $1. When that went away in...2005, I guess...I just started making folders on disc full of text files. Not as easy to deal with, but effectively did the same thing. That's the only form of "mind mapping" I ever did, or ever felt I needed. However, based on the entirely graphical mind mapping software packages on the market today, it's entirely possible I don't understand the concept.
At the moment, though, I don't bother to organize anything into any system at all. Sounds crazy, I know! But one huge advance in the past several years is that text based keyword search is just blazingly fast! In spotlight on mac, or the start menu of Windows 10, I can type "cook chicken", and have every text file I've ever created with those words pop up in less than a second. Same goes for my GMail; I've kept and imported every email I've ever gotten or sent since 1998, and Google can search my hundreds and thousands of emails in just a few seconds. So when searching is so fast and accurate, it seems utterly pointless for me to spend time thinking up reasonable folder structures and file names for things. Just stick it anywhere, and name it anything, and search will find it next time I want it. This has freed up vast sections of my brain formerly devoted to remembering file paths or other organizational structures. It has also allowed me to save absolutely everything, because I no longer have to worry about where to put it, or how to organize it. If I ever want it, assuming I can remember one or two vaguely associated words, it's there instantly.
BenRayfield [OP] 1 points 6y ago
I didnt want to claim I am blind when I'm not.
Theres too many connections between my lists for any kind of graphics to help, though that is how mindmaps normally work and is why they dont get as big as my 33k lists.
This system also does fast search, so no advantage there either way. The main difference is its a web. A hierarchy can fit in a web, but a web cant fit in a hierarchy. Anything can be connected to anything. Every name is a list of names you can reorder or add other names into it.
I have also experienced "freed up vast sections of my brain".
Theres too many connections between my lists for any kind of graphics to help, though that is how mindmaps normally work and is why they dont get as big as my 33k lists.
This system also does fast search, so no advantage there either way. The main difference is its a web. A hierarchy can fit in a web, but a web cant fit in a hierarchy. Anything can be connected to anything. Every name is a list of names you can reorder or add other names into it.
I have also experienced "freed up vast sections of my brain".
fastfinge 1 points 6y ago
I guess I just don't really see how a web would be useful to me. Just searching my filesystem by keywords can already connect anything to anything else, assuming they share a keyword. And I don't have to think about, or notice, the connections at the time the item was created. Searching for "chicken" reminds me that both my pressure cooker chicken recipes, and my copy of _Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire_ discuss cooking chicken. Not a useful connection, or one I'd think to create, but it's still there. It also seems like this is closer to the stream of consciousness style of thought than some kind of intentionally created web.
However, this is all just personal experience. Based on how popular graphical mind mapping software is, I'm quite sure there must be people in the blind community who want this. Plus, it does sound like the kind of software that doesn't seem useful until you try it.
edit: I want to clarify that webs like this don't seem useful to me for the purposes of daily life, or organizing notes. I couldn't ever get any writing done at all if it wasn't for $1. So I see the value of webs of concepts created by other people, for some narrow purpose. I just wouldn't want to keep my notes/ideas/projects/life in one.
However, this is all just personal experience. Based on how popular graphical mind mapping software is, I'm quite sure there must be people in the blind community who want this. Plus, it does sound like the kind of software that doesn't seem useful until you try it.
edit: I want to clarify that webs like this don't seem useful to me for the purposes of daily life, or organizing notes. I couldn't ever get any writing done at all if it wasn't for $1. So I see the value of webs of concepts created by other people, for some narrow purpose. I just wouldn't want to keep my notes/ideas/projects/life in one.
-shacklebolt- 2 points 6y ago
The question shouldn't be "are there blind people looking for this software, and what do blind people need?" The question should be "is there a fundamental reason this software must be inaccessible?"
If everything is correctly labeled, provides the necessary information by means other than visual or sound exclusively, can be navigated via keyboard, and can be modified via keyboard then it is likely to be suitable for a large amount of people with diverse disabilities. In a few specific cases (such as screenreaders) software must obviously be written explicitly for people with some kind of print disability. In most cases it is just a matter of being able to use the program in a manner comparable to sighted people.
If everything is correctly labeled, provides the necessary information by means other than visual or sound exclusively, can be navigated via keyboard, and can be modified via keyboard then it is likely to be suitable for a large amount of people with diverse disabilities. In a few specific cases (such as screenreaders) software must obviously be written explicitly for people with some kind of print disability. In most cases it is just a matter of being able to use the program in a manner comparable to sighted people.
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