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I am researching bionic vision and would like to ask you guys a few questions. (self.Blind)
submitted by visionscience
Dear visually impaired redditors,
I am a phd student trying to understand how human vision works on the neuronal level. As an exercise, I have been given the task to create a mock-up company in the business of developing bionic vision or, if you will, artificial vision.
A part of this exercise is to interview potential customers to get a better understanding of what they are actually looking for instead of me attempting to guess peoples' needs.
I figured reddit might be a good place for this as everything is anonymous and, hopefully, unintrusive.
As human vision is a very complex system where visual information is being neuronally processed already from the retina up to and including many cortical areas, one can then attempt to restore sight at various locations depending on the specific type of visual impairment, e.g. retinal, thalamic, and cortical restoration.
I would therefore like to ask those of you who know; what kind of visual impairment do you have? Detailed answers are appreciated!
Now, the following question may seem a bit odd, but I try not to assume too much; as a visually impaired or blind person, if you could have your sight restored to normal for free and without pain, would you choose to do so?
Since this technology is still in its infancy, we are unfortunately not able to restore vision perfectly (yet) because there are certain trade-offs that needs to be made. An example of such a trade-off could be sacrificing some resolution (acuity) in order to gain better motion detection. Therefore, I would like to know what kind of visual information is most important to you? Is it colour or motion? Is it light sensitivity or resolution? Are there any other visual qualities that you value? Keep in mind that the visual qualities I have mentioned here are not necessarily part of the trade-offs I mentioned before.
I realise that some of you may have been borne without sight, and you I ask to imagine what you think would be the most important visual information to acquire.
Finally, one of the paths to take in restoration of vision is to implant an artificial visual area on a relative late part of the visual processing stream. This circumvents the need for working eyes and subcortical structures, but increases the need for more advanced algorithms to do what these areas evolved to do in nature. Such an operation is, of course, not without risk, and I would therefore like to know what would be your minimum requirement in terms of visual quality if you were to undergo such an operation?
I do not want to instil false hopes in any readers, so keep in mind that this technology might not be available for a long time, and that I am only doing this as an exercise for coursework.
I assure you, however, that there are many scientists out there working hard in hope of restoring sight to those who should want it, and progress is being made every day.
Thank you.
I am a phd student trying to understand how human vision works on the neuronal level. As an exercise, I have been given the task to create a mock-up company in the business of developing bionic vision or, if you will, artificial vision.
A part of this exercise is to interview potential customers to get a better understanding of what they are actually looking for instead of me attempting to guess peoples' needs.
I figured reddit might be a good place for this as everything is anonymous and, hopefully, unintrusive.
As human vision is a very complex system where visual information is being neuronally processed already from the retina up to and including many cortical areas, one can then attempt to restore sight at various locations depending on the specific type of visual impairment, e.g. retinal, thalamic, and cortical restoration.
I would therefore like to ask those of you who know; what kind of visual impairment do you have? Detailed answers are appreciated!
Now, the following question may seem a bit odd, but I try not to assume too much; as a visually impaired or blind person, if you could have your sight restored to normal for free and without pain, would you choose to do so?
Since this technology is still in its infancy, we are unfortunately not able to restore vision perfectly (yet) because there are certain trade-offs that needs to be made. An example of such a trade-off could be sacrificing some resolution (acuity) in order to gain better motion detection. Therefore, I would like to know what kind of visual information is most important to you? Is it colour or motion? Is it light sensitivity or resolution? Are there any other visual qualities that you value? Keep in mind that the visual qualities I have mentioned here are not necessarily part of the trade-offs I mentioned before.
I realise that some of you may have been borne without sight, and you I ask to imagine what you think would be the most important visual information to acquire.
Finally, one of the paths to take in restoration of vision is to implant an artificial visual area on a relative late part of the visual processing stream. This circumvents the need for working eyes and subcortical structures, but increases the need for more advanced algorithms to do what these areas evolved to do in nature. Such an operation is, of course, not without risk, and I would therefore like to know what would be your minimum requirement in terms of visual quality if you were to undergo such an operation?
I do not want to instil false hopes in any readers, so keep in mind that this technology might not be available for a long time, and that I am only doing this as an exercise for coursework.
I assure you, however, that there are many scientists out there working hard in hope of restoring sight to those who should want it, and progress is being made every day.
Thank you.
fastfinge 5 points 6y ago
Did you see the ask science $1 from yesterday? It's not directly related to your questions, but you might find it interesting.
As for me, I was born blind. The thing I miss most about sight is the ability to drive. But I'd be just as satisfied with a self-driving car as I would with vision. The idea of getting my sight back is actually a little scary. If I was just suddenly sighted tomorrow I'd have to learn to read print, recognize colours, perspective changes, recognize faces, etc. I suspect it'd take me at least 10 years before I was confident using visual information. The problem is, I'd be sighted from day one. So I'd lose all government/workplace support. People who can see don't need Braille displays! But how long would it take me to learn print? I feel like there would be a few awful years where I was "sighted" and totally unable to use my sight for anything useful, and yet stuck without any support because I'd no longer be considered disabled. So saying you can restore sight without cost just isn't true. I'd have to devote years of my life to learning to use sight, and there's a pretty big oppertunity cost there.
As for me, I was born blind. The thing I miss most about sight is the ability to drive. But I'd be just as satisfied with a self-driving car as I would with vision. The idea of getting my sight back is actually a little scary. If I was just suddenly sighted tomorrow I'd have to learn to read print, recognize colours, perspective changes, recognize faces, etc. I suspect it'd take me at least 10 years before I was confident using visual information. The problem is, I'd be sighted from day one. So I'd lose all government/workplace support. People who can see don't need Braille displays! But how long would it take me to learn print? I feel like there would be a few awful years where I was "sighted" and totally unable to use my sight for anything useful, and yet stuck without any support because I'd no longer be considered disabled. So saying you can restore sight without cost just isn't true. I'd have to devote years of my life to learning to use sight, and there's a pretty big oppertunity cost there.
Kapitalist_Pigdog 2 points 6y ago
I never thought about how terrifying it'd be to gain sight for the first time. For the sighted like myself, that'd be like gaining some completely new sense altogether, with no idea of how it should be interpreted. The information is there, but what does it mean? Everything would seem so random and unconnected. I'm trying to think of an analogy that could go along with this, but it's simply unimaginable.
fastfinge 3 points 6y ago
Well, some animals can sense the earth's magnetic field, and use it's fluctuations and orientation to navigate. So maybe it'd be a little like suddenly being able to sense magnetic fields.
visionscience [OP] 1 points 6y ago
Thank you for your answer - just the kind of insight I was looking for.
Yes, many things would definitely have to be learned, but the actual seeing might not take as long as you fear. Babies can see from birth, but they are not really able to interpret what they see. Their vision is fully developed within a year. Of course, baby-brains undergo much more drastic changes in their first year of life than is possible for adult brains, but we still maintain a certain degree of neuronal plasticity.
Reading and understanding words is an almost entirely different cognitive function and that might turn out to be more difficult, but a very good point nonetheless.
Your points about government support are very interesting and not something I had considered previously.
> So saying you can restore sight without cost just isn't true.
My apologies, but that was not what I intended to say. I was attempting to create a fictional situation where concerns of the cost of the operation in terms of money and fear of pain were eliminated in order to let more interesting points come forth. I did not mean to imply that such a transition would be entirely without cost.
Yes, many things would definitely have to be learned, but the actual seeing might not take as long as you fear. Babies can see from birth, but they are not really able to interpret what they see. Their vision is fully developed within a year. Of course, baby-brains undergo much more drastic changes in their first year of life than is possible for adult brains, but we still maintain a certain degree of neuronal plasticity.
Reading and understanding words is an almost entirely different cognitive function and that might turn out to be more difficult, but a very good point nonetheless.
Your points about government support are very interesting and not something I had considered previously.
> So saying you can restore sight without cost just isn't true.
My apologies, but that was not what I intended to say. I was attempting to create a fictional situation where concerns of the cost of the operation in terms of money and fear of pain were eliminated in order to let more interesting points come forth. I did not mean to imply that such a transition would be entirely without cost.
-shacklebolt- 1 points 6y ago
> Yes, many things would definitely have to be learned, but the actual seeing might not take as long as you fear.
I think you are substantially underestimating the issues here. We [already know]
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monocular_deprivation) that being deprived of sight in early development results in vision that is never normal even when there is a "sight restoring" procedure performed (like children who have congenital cataracts removed late.)
I think you are substantially underestimating the issues here. We [already know]
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monocular_deprivation) that being deprived of sight in early development results in vision that is never normal even when there is a "sight restoring" procedure performed (like children who have congenital cataracts removed late.)
fastfinge 1 points 6y ago
> that was not what I intended to say.
I thought that might be the case. I just wanted to point out that for someone born blind, regaining vision would have costs other than money and pain.
Edit to ad: I would do the procedure if, beforehand, it was guaranteed that I would get all the training and support I would need after the fact, and the procedure was understood well enough that the doctors had a good idea how much training and support that would be (1 year? 3 years? 5 years? who knows.). So I guess I'm not willing to be one of the first.
I thought that might be the case. I just wanted to point out that for someone born blind, regaining vision would have costs other than money and pain.
Edit to ad: I would do the procedure if, beforehand, it was guaranteed that I would get all the training and support I would need after the fact, and the procedure was understood well enough that the doctors had a good idea how much training and support that would be (1 year? 3 years? 5 years? who knows.). So I guess I'm not willing to be one of the first.
visionscience [OP] 1 points 6y ago
> I just wanted to point out that for someone born blind, regaining vision would have costs other than money and pain.
And I thank you for that insight!
> So I guess I'm not willing to be one of the first.
A fair position to hold. I know very little about the life of the blind, and I think in my ignorance I overestimate how important (re)gaining vision is to those without.
And I thank you for that insight!
> So I guess I'm not willing to be one of the first.
A fair position to hold. I know very little about the life of the blind, and I think in my ignorance I overestimate how important (re)gaining vision is to those without.
fastfinge 1 points 6y ago
From what I've noticed, regaining vision for those who once had it is extremely important. But for those of us who never did, it's much less important.
This brings to mind something I read about the advantages of undirected evolution ages and ages ago (I wish I could remember exactly what it was or where). The basic point was that if you asked a gorilla what he wanted, he'd want to be much bigger and stronger. He'd never ask for the changes in brain structure required to build and use advanced tools, because that's not important to him. But as humans, we know tool use will bring a better life than even the largest possible increase in muscle mass could ever allow. Similarly, if you ask me what I want, I want to drive. I've never scene a sunset or a painting, so I really don't care about any of that. Yet people who have scene sunsets and paintings could argue that those might bring me much more pleasure in the long run than driving would. So should we force everyone born blind to be cured "for our own good"? To me, that sounds creepy and horrible, and I would fight against a law like that with everything I have. But then, I was born blind.
This brings to mind something I read about the advantages of undirected evolution ages and ages ago (I wish I could remember exactly what it was or where). The basic point was that if you asked a gorilla what he wanted, he'd want to be much bigger and stronger. He'd never ask for the changes in brain structure required to build and use advanced tools, because that's not important to him. But as humans, we know tool use will bring a better life than even the largest possible increase in muscle mass could ever allow. Similarly, if you ask me what I want, I want to drive. I've never scene a sunset or a painting, so I really don't care about any of that. Yet people who have scene sunsets and paintings could argue that those might bring me much more pleasure in the long run than driving would. So should we force everyone born blind to be cured "for our own good"? To me, that sounds creepy and horrible, and I would fight against a law like that with everything I have. But then, I was born blind.
charliemyheart 1 points 6y ago
Cortical blindness is the cause in my case.
I would not take it, surgeries with another disability I have are risky, EDS, is a connective tissue disorder. The risks of losing the vision I have to gain more is not worth it.
I would not take it, surgeries with another disability I have are risky, EDS, is a connective tissue disorder. The risks of losing the vision I have to gain more is not worth it.
SWaspMale 1 points 6y ago
>what kind of visual impairment do you have?
Extreme myopia and color vision deficiency, with floaters.
>if you could have your sight restored to normal for free and without pain, would you choose to do so?
To me, 'pain' would include cost, and I expect it would be expensive if nothing else. . .. but maybe there would be a 'study', and I might even get paid to try it, so why not?
Extreme myopia and color vision deficiency, with floaters.
>if you could have your sight restored to normal for free and without pain, would you choose to do so?
To me, 'pain' would include cost, and I expect it would be expensive if nothing else. . .. but maybe there would be a 'study', and I might even get paid to try it, so why not?
Marconius 1 points 6y ago
I lost my vision through a retinal arterial occlusion, basically my arteries hardening after radiation treatments as a baby, and 28 years later they threw a clot after a series of surgeries that choked off blood to the retina and killed it.
Ultimately, I want color and high resolution. Definitely open to any technologies that bypass the eye entirely and connect directly to the visual cortex, and always had a fun idea of being able to plug a graphics card directly into an interface on my head to do just that. If any technology came along that offered a decent resolution with a fast response rate, I would absolutely sign up for any surgery involved to try it out. If anything came along that allowed me to plug into a graphic interface of a computer so I could animate again without the use of my physical eye, I would absolutely want to do that. There will always be a drive to want more resolution to get back to my original visual acuity since I will always know what I am missing.
Ultimately, I want color and high resolution. Definitely open to any technologies that bypass the eye entirely and connect directly to the visual cortex, and always had a fun idea of being able to plug a graphics card directly into an interface on my head to do just that. If any technology came along that offered a decent resolution with a fast response rate, I would absolutely sign up for any surgery involved to try it out. If anything came along that allowed me to plug into a graphic interface of a computer so I could animate again without the use of my physical eye, I would absolutely want to do that. There will always be a drive to want more resolution to get back to my original visual acuity since I will always know what I am missing.
impablomations 1 points 6y ago
> what kind of visual impairment do you have?
Homonymous Hemianopsia
Complete lack of left visual field. Also missing some top & bottom. Also completely blind in low light levels.
I also have little wormholes (as I call them). Very small areas of blindness on my 'good' side, that make reading text on food packets, books, etc very hard. It basically interfered with anything requiring detail.
Was fully sighted until 2 yrs ago when i had a stroke during a heart procedure (rotablation angioplasty)
>as a visually impaired or blind person, if you could have your sight restored to normal for free and without pain, would you choose to do so?
In a heartbeat.
Don't know if it's even possible since a good portion of my visual cortex is now basically dead tissue. But if it were possible, I'd be 100% in favour of it.
>what kind of visual information is most important to you?
If it was only possible to restore one aspect of my missing sight, then I would say the ability to detect objects in my missing visual field.
It would enable me to navigate much more safely. I'm constantly walking into things on my 'bad' side, or hitting my head on things I don't realise are there.
> what would be your minimum requirement in terms of visual quality if you were to undergo such an operation?
At the very least, being able to detect objects
Homonymous Hemianopsia
Complete lack of left visual field. Also missing some top & bottom. Also completely blind in low light levels.
I also have little wormholes (as I call them). Very small areas of blindness on my 'good' side, that make reading text on food packets, books, etc very hard. It basically interfered with anything requiring detail.
Was fully sighted until 2 yrs ago when i had a stroke during a heart procedure (rotablation angioplasty)
>as a visually impaired or blind person, if you could have your sight restored to normal for free and without pain, would you choose to do so?
In a heartbeat.
Don't know if it's even possible since a good portion of my visual cortex is now basically dead tissue. But if it were possible, I'd be 100% in favour of it.
>what kind of visual information is most important to you?
If it was only possible to restore one aspect of my missing sight, then I would say the ability to detect objects in my missing visual field.
It would enable me to navigate much more safely. I'm constantly walking into things on my 'bad' side, or hitting my head on things I don't realise are there.
> what would be your minimum requirement in terms of visual quality if you were to undergo such an operation?
At the very least, being able to detect objects
visionscience [OP] 1 points 6y ago
Thank you very much for your reply.
You belong to a patient group that I had not previously considered. As you mention yourself, the fact that you are missing a good portion of your visual cortex complicates things because of the advanced state of the processing occurring at this stage. We do not yet fully understand how visual information is treated within the various visual areas of the cortex, and not knowing what to replace and replicate, makes the task daunting.
However, we do know that there are two major "processing streams" that perform different operations and we are slowly piecing together what these operations are specifically. It is therefore not unthinkable that we would one day be able to create an implant capable of performing the task of the missing region. The most challenging aspect of this is how to "connect" to the brain in a manner that makes sense to the brain, so to speak.
You belong to a patient group that I had not previously considered. As you mention yourself, the fact that you are missing a good portion of your visual cortex complicates things because of the advanced state of the processing occurring at this stage. We do not yet fully understand how visual information is treated within the various visual areas of the cortex, and not knowing what to replace and replicate, makes the task daunting.
However, we do know that there are two major "processing streams" that perform different operations and we are slowly piecing together what these operations are specifically. It is therefore not unthinkable that we would one day be able to create an implant capable of performing the task of the missing region. The most challenging aspect of this is how to "connect" to the brain in a manner that makes sense to the brain, so to speak.
Vaelian 1 points 6y ago
I'm blind due to a severe case of congenital glaucoma; lost sight in my left eye when I was around 4 and in my right eye when I was 31 (roughly 2.5 years ago).
If anyone made a cortical bionic eye with a resolution of at least 320x200 I would go for it as long as it didn't ruin my chances of regaining sight through optic nerve regeneration. That resolution would allow me to read magnified text on a computer screen, which is all I need to code. Regarding the most important elements of vision for me they would be motion and color.
If anyone made a cortical bionic eye with a resolution of at least 320x200 I would go for it as long as it didn't ruin my chances of regaining sight through optic nerve regeneration. That resolution would allow me to read magnified text on a computer screen, which is all I need to code. Regarding the most important elements of vision for me they would be motion and color.
visionscience [OP] 2 points 6y ago
Thank you for your reply.
Very good point about retaining the possibility of optic nerve regeneration - that is a very important consideration, because these implants might "rewire" the brain in ways that might not be straightforward to undo.
Very good point about retaining the possibility of optic nerve regeneration - that is a very important consideration, because these implants might "rewire" the brain in ways that might not be straightforward to undo.
[deleted] -2 points 6y ago
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