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Questions for Owners of Guide Dogs (self.Blind)
submitted by SeeingIDogs
Hi r/blind, I am a product design engineer completing my final year project at university. I am targeting my project at creating a product or system that can help guide dogs to have an increased capacity and efficiency and was hoping some of you might be able to answer some questions to help me gain a better understanding.
1. As I understand it so far, the most common tasks a guide dog performs are when travelling between locations where the dog avoids obstacles, follows the footpath and alerts at roads. What other tasks would it be useful for your dog to be able to do? Do you use your guide dog inside your home?
2. When the dog stops at a road what I have read is that the owner must instruct the dog to go left or right, or listen for traffic to see if it is safe to go forwards. Is this correct and have you ever had issues arise from this?
3. I have read that overtime a guide dog can learn to remember regular routes, particularly if there is a prompt, eg. Getting supermarket bag. However in order to go to less familiar destinations the owner must essentially memorise the route in terms of distances, landmarks and directions in detail in order to ensure they reach the correct place. What are your techniques for remembering routes to different places? Are regular gps navigation systems such as google maps useful tools and do they integrate well with a guide dog?
Any answers would be greatly appreciated and extremely helpful.
To the wider r/blind community whether you have a guide dog or not, if you can think of a product that could help make your life easier I would also be interested to hear it.
1. As I understand it so far, the most common tasks a guide dog performs are when travelling between locations where the dog avoids obstacles, follows the footpath and alerts at roads. What other tasks would it be useful for your dog to be able to do? Do you use your guide dog inside your home?
2. When the dog stops at a road what I have read is that the owner must instruct the dog to go left or right, or listen for traffic to see if it is safe to go forwards. Is this correct and have you ever had issues arise from this?
3. I have read that overtime a guide dog can learn to remember regular routes, particularly if there is a prompt, eg. Getting supermarket bag. However in order to go to less familiar destinations the owner must essentially memorise the route in terms of distances, landmarks and directions in detail in order to ensure they reach the correct place. What are your techniques for remembering routes to different places? Are regular gps navigation systems such as google maps useful tools and do they integrate well with a guide dog?
Any answers would be greatly appreciated and extremely helpful.
To the wider r/blind community whether you have a guide dog or not, if you can think of a product that could help make your life easier I would also be interested to hear it.
redstone1337 2 points 6y ago
You are correct as to what a guide dog does. As for a product or system that makes a guide dog more useful--how about a universal way of telling people "this dog doesn't exist." That may sound weird but:
* you wouldn't pet a dog that doesn't exist.
* you wouldn't fawn over a dog that doesn't exist.
* you wouldn't try to feed a dog that doesn't exist from your table without its master knowing.
* you wouldn't refuse a person entry into a public building because of a nonexistent dog.
My dog's job is to make sure I don't get run over, and distracting her makes that job harder.
* you wouldn't pet a dog that doesn't exist.
* you wouldn't fawn over a dog that doesn't exist.
* you wouldn't try to feed a dog that doesn't exist from your table without its master knowing.
* you wouldn't refuse a person entry into a public building because of a nonexistent dog.
My dog's job is to make sure I don't get run over, and distracting her makes that job harder.
SeeingIDogs [OP] 1 points 6y ago
Hi, thanks for commenting. It must be a constant and quite irritating issue trying to stop people from interacting with your dog while it's working which is a real shame. I love patting dogs as much as the next person but was taught from a young age never to interact with guide dogs while they were working.
Most of the time the weird ideas end up being the best ones! Will definitely add this to my list of areas to develop further.
Thanks again.
Most of the time the weird ideas end up being the best ones! Will definitely add this to my list of areas to develop further.
Thanks again.
ChupacabraGatherer 2 points 6y ago
Howdy!
So I have a guide dog and never use him at home. I know things well enough here it's more work than it is helpful.
What you said about coming to street crossing is correct. He just stopps and I say what direction and when to go. He is simply a tool and can't do a ton of independent thinking. That being said he does know a few routes like to school and the mailbox. He also knows the way to the liquor store but that's all just because we go there so often.
Much of what he can or can't do depends on what I practice with him. He's learned to find the poles with the buttons to cross streets but when I first got him he had no idea what those were.
When I go somewhere new I do have to normally fire up Google Maps or something similar if I don't learn the route before hand. It is a pain sometimes but honestly I'm not sure what would make it better than maybe having a small child that can read as a guide person which I'm sure would be frowned upon.
If there's anything else I can do holler at me!
So I have a guide dog and never use him at home. I know things well enough here it's more work than it is helpful.
What you said about coming to street crossing is correct. He just stopps and I say what direction and when to go. He is simply a tool and can't do a ton of independent thinking. That being said he does know a few routes like to school and the mailbox. He also knows the way to the liquor store but that's all just because we go there so often.
Much of what he can or can't do depends on what I practice with him. He's learned to find the poles with the buttons to cross streets but when I first got him he had no idea what those were.
When I go somewhere new I do have to normally fire up Google Maps or something similar if I don't learn the route before hand. It is a pain sometimes but honestly I'm not sure what would make it better than maybe having a small child that can read as a guide person which I'm sure would be frowned upon.
If there's anything else I can do holler at me!
SeeingIDogs [OP] 1 points 6y ago
It seems my reply disappeared so apologies if this ends up being a double post.
Hi there!
Thank you so much for responding. Your experiences are really helpful to me gaining a better understanding.
If I had a guide dog he would also definitely know his way to the liquor store, I saw someone on another site saying their dog would often take them to the pub by mistake because they went there so often.
Going to a new place certainly seems like it would be a hassle sometimes so this is what I'm hoping to target with my project. I'm looking to create a system where you are able to enter a new destination and have your dog lead you there in order to learn the route more easily. The dog would be told whether to go left, right or straight by my product, but of course you would still instruct it when to cross a road. My thinking is that it would be used the first 1-3 times when travelling a new route in order to get confident. Does this sound like an easier way to learn how to get to new locations?
Thanks again for your input.
Hi there!
Thank you so much for responding. Your experiences are really helpful to me gaining a better understanding.
If I had a guide dog he would also definitely know his way to the liquor store, I saw someone on another site saying their dog would often take them to the pub by mistake because they went there so often.
Going to a new place certainly seems like it would be a hassle sometimes so this is what I'm hoping to target with my project. I'm looking to create a system where you are able to enter a new destination and have your dog lead you there in order to learn the route more easily. The dog would be told whether to go left, right or straight by my product, but of course you would still instruct it when to cross a road. My thinking is that it would be used the first 1-3 times when travelling a new route in order to get confident. Does this sound like an easier way to learn how to get to new locations?
Thanks again for your input.
SeeingIDogs [OP] 1 points 6y ago
Hi there!
Thank you so much for responding. Your experiences are really helpful to me gaining a better understanding.
If I had a guide dog he would also definitely know his way to the liquor store, I saw someone on another site saying their dog would often take them to the pub by mistake because they went there so often.
Going to a new place certainly seems like it would be a hassle sometimes so this is what I'm hoping to target with my project. I'm looking to create a system where you are able to enter a new destination and have your dog lead you there in order to learn the route more easily. The dog would be told whether to go left, right or straight by my product, but of course you would still instruct it when to cross a road. My thinking is that it would be used the first 1-3 times when travelling a new route in order to get confident. Does this sound like an easier way to learn how to get to new locations?
Thanks again for your input.
Thank you so much for responding. Your experiences are really helpful to me gaining a better understanding.
If I had a guide dog he would also definitely know his way to the liquor store, I saw someone on another site saying their dog would often take them to the pub by mistake because they went there so often.
Going to a new place certainly seems like it would be a hassle sometimes so this is what I'm hoping to target with my project. I'm looking to create a system where you are able to enter a new destination and have your dog lead you there in order to learn the route more easily. The dog would be told whether to go left, right or straight by my product, but of course you would still instruct it when to cross a road. My thinking is that it would be used the first 1-3 times when travelling a new route in order to get confident. Does this sound like an easier way to learn how to get to new locations?
Thanks again for your input.
[deleted] 1 points 6y ago
[deleted]
KillerLag 2 points 6y ago
2) Yes, the human needs to indicate when to turn and when to cross. The dog has some training for emergencies, to prevent a person from walking into the street with traffic, but that is generally not good (the dog will have a nervous breakdown if that keeps happening). However, if a dog does a route enough, he may automatically know when to turn after crossing.
3) Yes, the human does need to know the route and recognize landmarks. However, those landmarks can be things such as recognize street traffic, or recognizing a certain slope on the sidewalk. GPS technology is a good supplement to guide dogs, and many guide dog schools teach GPS usage with using guide dogs.
http://www.leaderdog.org/clients/programs/gps-technology
3) Yes, the human does need to know the route and recognize landmarks. However, those landmarks can be things such as recognize street traffic, or recognizing a certain slope on the sidewalk. GPS technology is a good supplement to guide dogs, and many guide dog schools teach GPS usage with using guide dogs.
http://www.leaderdog.org/clients/programs/gps-technology
SeeingIDogs [OP] 1 points 6y ago
Thank you very much for your response. I had a look at that link and investigated Tracker+ a bit more. I had thought that GPS may be at times too inaccurate to be a valuable tool but that's good to know there a programs design to integrate it. Essentially what I am considering is helping guide dogs to work more closely with GPS or a similar system in order to help users learn new routes more easily, do you think this could be a useful idea?
KillerLag 2 points 6y ago
Trekker, not Tracker. It isn't that GPS isn't inaccurate, it just isn't accurate enough. I usually tell me clients that a GPS is good enough to get them to a building, but they still need to find the door themselves. And there are lots of things that can disrupt a signal, so they still need to have good skills.
Help guide dogs, or guide dog users? I should mention that there is a important distinction. Even for someone like me, who works directly with guide dog teams, I would never give any commands to the dog directly. I explain to the user what they need to do, and they give the dogs a command. It can be a dangerous distraction for the dog.
I do know many clients who use GPS to learn routes on their own. Those clients usually only call me when they come across a specific issue the GPS can't help them with (unusual street crossing, construction on the sidewalk, going through an underground path, etc).
Help guide dogs, or guide dog users? I should mention that there is a important distinction. Even for someone like me, who works directly with guide dog teams, I would never give any commands to the dog directly. I explain to the user what they need to do, and they give the dogs a command. It can be a dangerous distraction for the dog.
I do know many clients who use GPS to learn routes on their own. Those clients usually only call me when they come across a specific issue the GPS can't help them with (unusual street crossing, construction on the sidewalk, going through an underground path, etc).
SeeingIDogs [OP] 1 points 6y ago
Trekker, apologies. That is great to know that the accuracy of GPS is sufficient for most navigation. Hopefully other types of beacons such as Bluetooth beacons can one day be a more valuable tool for precise tasks like finding doorways.
"Help guide dogs, or guide dog users?"
This question is where I keep manage to confuse myself with my thinking. The end goal of my project is of course to help people with vision impairment have a better experience when navigating to a new location and I had identified the relationship with guide dogs as a possible area to target.
In essence, in the situation of traveling to an unknown location, I want to combine the main strengths of a guide dog (avoiding obstacles, staying on footpath & following directions) with the strengths of a GPS (route planning, land marking & providing directions at given points) in order to make the process more user friendly then using the two techniques in combination. The idea is that this would provide a more dynamic navigation system allowing a new route to be confidently traveled by the user while easily being able to concentrate on remembering the important details of the route. I intend it to be able to used only the first 2-3 times traveling a new route so that the user can maintain a higher level of independence if desired.
I have a few different thoughts about how to do this but it will take some time to refine the best system and to ensure it would not affect the dogs main duties in any way. Apologies if I am being somewhat vague, as this may form a larger project will withhold the specifics of designs being discussed for now.
As it is an area where you are knowledgeable and experienced as a provider of these services, I have one more general question for you if you wouldn't mind:
Would you say that your clients encounter enough issues while navigating with a guide dog/GPS/both that they would be interested in a system that could make this a smoother and more reliable method?
Your input has been truly valuable so far, much appreciated.
"Help guide dogs, or guide dog users?"
This question is where I keep manage to confuse myself with my thinking. The end goal of my project is of course to help people with vision impairment have a better experience when navigating to a new location and I had identified the relationship with guide dogs as a possible area to target.
In essence, in the situation of traveling to an unknown location, I want to combine the main strengths of a guide dog (avoiding obstacles, staying on footpath & following directions) with the strengths of a GPS (route planning, land marking & providing directions at given points) in order to make the process more user friendly then using the two techniques in combination. The idea is that this would provide a more dynamic navigation system allowing a new route to be confidently traveled by the user while easily being able to concentrate on remembering the important details of the route. I intend it to be able to used only the first 2-3 times traveling a new route so that the user can maintain a higher level of independence if desired.
I have a few different thoughts about how to do this but it will take some time to refine the best system and to ensure it would not affect the dogs main duties in any way. Apologies if I am being somewhat vague, as this may form a larger project will withhold the specifics of designs being discussed for now.
As it is an area where you are knowledgeable and experienced as a provider of these services, I have one more general question for you if you wouldn't mind:
Would you say that your clients encounter enough issues while navigating with a guide dog/GPS/both that they would be interested in a system that could make this a smoother and more reliable method?
Your input has been truly valuable so far, much appreciated.
KillerLag 2 points 6y ago
The iBeacons are pretty good, but they have their own set of issues. I helped set them up before in a building, and 95% worked exactly as expected. However, electromagnetic interference can still mess with them. One beacon was near the computer server room, so lots of interference from the electrical lines, and the compass would just spin like crazy. In another area, two beacons were close enough that they would interfere with each other, and would hop back and forth between the two of them even if you weren't moving.
By the time a person gets a guide dog, they should already have decent cane and navigation skills (when applying for the schools, many schools require you to send a video to show you travelling a route). I find that most of my clients would actually plan on the route first using their relevant technology, then travel the route mostly from memory but checking the GPS occassionally to confirm they are still on the right path. Most don't listen to the GPS constantly because they still need to listen to things like traffics and landmarks. Most of my guide dog clients are fairly advanced...... I would say they would be interested, but one big factor is cost. Very few of my clients would buy Blindsquare, and that app is about $55.
By the time a person gets a guide dog, they should already have decent cane and navigation skills (when applying for the schools, many schools require you to send a video to show you travelling a route). I find that most of my clients would actually plan on the route first using their relevant technology, then travel the route mostly from memory but checking the GPS occassionally to confirm they are still on the right path. Most don't listen to the GPS constantly because they still need to listen to things like traffics and landmarks. Most of my guide dog clients are fairly advanced...... I would say they would be interested, but one big factor is cost. Very few of my clients would buy Blindsquare, and that app is about $55.
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