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Blind and Visually Impaired Community

Full History - 2017 - 07 - 30 - ID#6qfsri
5
The Gun Debate, Why It Matters for the Blind (nfb.org)
submitted by krvl11
Terry_Pie 5 points 6y ago
Thanks for sharing. There's so much going on in this article. Regarding the American legislation issue, I'm an Australian, so I'm an outsider. I do have opinions. If you'd like me to flesh out my thoughts on the situation, let me know.

Regarding firearms use by people who are blind or vision impaired, what I like to tell people is that people with disability do things differently. Just because they are done differently does not mean they are unsafe.

I also very much like the point the article makes about the assumption people arguing against blind/vision impaired firearms ownership that blind/vision paired people are intrinsically incapable of exercising care and good judgement. It's as absurd as it is disrespectful and insulting. Like any other person owning or utilising a firearm, blind/vision impaired people don't want to bring harm to anyone else or themselves. Just like a sighted individual, of course they are going to take due care and exercise good judgement when handling firearms. Any person who is unwilling to do that shouldn't be handling a firearm, which applies equally to anyone.
KillerLag 2 points 6y ago
I'm Canadian, so also an outsider to American law.

Personally, I think if someone can get their license for their gun, even without sight, they should be allowed to own one. The process to get the training to handle a gun safely without sight, though, may be very difficult.

One big factor (especially in the US) is the types of guns (and ammo) that are available to get. I can see why someone would want a hunting rifle, or a handgun (for hunting, protection, etc). It's a bit more of a concern when someone wants to use assault rifles with armour piercing bullets, incendiary or explosive rounds. :S

My coworkers and I have had some clients try out archery and axe throwing before. Both can be dangerous if done improperly (there is a crapton of waivers you have to sign, regardless of sight), but they can be done safely if you are careful. Same idea with guns, it's just the range is much greater.
fastfinge 1 points 6y ago
There's no debate. Sighted civilians should not be handling firearms, and neither should blind civilians. School shootings are so regular in the US now that they hardly even make headlines.
Terry_Pie 3 points 6y ago
I fear you’re trivialising what is a very complex issue. You’ve also conflated two issues together: firearms control; and incidents of mass shootings (specifically school shootings).

You could completely outlaw firearms in the US and I doubt it would impact the rate of firearms related violent crime or death. Even over the medium term, the impact of a total ban would be extremely limited at best. The reason is that firearms are already in distribution and you've mainly got to rely on people voluntarily turning them in when such a ban is implemented. Sure you can send police around to confiscate the things, but the man power required is just too overwhelming. Firearms might also not be completely traceable, or people can lie to conceal and maintain their possession.

The other issue is that it pushes firearms underground. The result is that you create an uncontrollable element. Regulation really is a much more effective tool to deal with the situation.

In my opinion. the two big things that can key this that can help mitigate crime involving firearms and mass shootings in the United States are requirements to properly secure firearms, and attitudinal changes. The thing that always gets me is the number of toddlers that die or who kill their parents with firearms. This situation comes about because loaded firearms are kept within easy reach in the United States. The most successful aspect of Australian legislation is requiring firearms to be secured when not in use in a double locked safe affixed to the building. In addition, firearms cannot be stored loaded, and ammunition must be kept in a separate safe to your firearms (again double locked). On top of these requirements, only the owner of the firearms is legally allowed to access them.

Obviously the US context is different and I’m certain supporters would point to their right to self defence. This element dovetails nicely into my second point regarding attitudal change. Simply put, an attitude that condems harming fellow citizens, or turning to firearms as a first resort in self defence scenarios needs to be encouraged. Such a change is likely to benefit American law enforcement too, both in terms of keeping them safer, and making law enforcement officers seek other means to resolve conflict rather than turning to firearms. Achieving such a change would require a mix of legislation (placing more stringent tests around self defence and use of reasonable force) and education. Again, speaking from the Australian context, self-defence is not an accepted reason for the possession of a firearm. The law also requires flight be preferenced over fight, but in the instance one is pressed to defend themselves with force, that force must be proportionate to the threat and should someone cause injury, or worse death, in the course of defending themselves, the incident will be examined very closely and seriously and it is very likely to progress to the courts to determine whether the person defending themselves was reasonable in their use of force. The key thing here is that you only have the right to harm another in the most exceptional of circumstances.

Regarding the other issue you’ve raised of incidents of mass shooting, particularly in school contexts, while removing easy access to firearms is likely to reduce if not eliminate them (experiences in Australia and New Zealand support this hypothesis), such responses are reactive, not preventative. Again you also have the issue that you could achieve your desired ends (constraining access to firearms to those that commit mass shootings) in a far easier manner than outright bans, namely more stringent regulations enforcing secure storage.

What I mean by reactive is that you aren’t actually addressing the root cause of mass shootings, simply the means by which they are perpetrated. Without easy access to firearms what would replace these incidents? Quite likely what you see in the UK: mass stabbings and vehicular attacks. I’d also expect the suicide element of mass shootings to remain unchanged. I’d encourage you to have a listen to Anatomy of a Highschool Shooting by Ill Bill (incidently a song that a French student, who went on to commit a mass shooting in France earlier this year, or late last, was obsessed with). It’s a very confronting song, but his core thesis is that sustained harassment and disrespect, combined with the apathy and absence of concern from authority figures (the teachers), led to the Columbine shooting. His question to us, the listener, is given Eric Harris’ and Dylan Klebold’s perspectives on their experiences and treatment, is it really surprising the event took place?

So you can constrain access to firearms, but that isn’t going to do anything to address the issues that lead to mass shootings. Rather, what is actually required to prevent such incidents is greater investment in mental health, peer support in schools and workplaces, and greater steps to prevent citizens becoming isolated or ostrasised and connect people with their community. That’s not to say I’m not of the opinion that improved firearms legislation and regulation isn’t part of the response, it is, but it isn’t a panacea to these issues and needs to form part of a wider policy response.

At the end of the day it needs to be accepted that violent crime will occur. Public policy should mitigate its prevelance to the greatest extent possible while mainting the liberty of its citizens, also to the greatest extent possible. It’s a difficult balancing act to be sure, but it can be achieved short of completely banning firearms – and for a lot less money than this would cost to boot. Whatever controls that might be implemented however, the fact is that America has a very strong firearms culture and a constitution that endorses the possession of firearms. That isn’t something that can be surmounted overnight. Change will need to be incremental and take place within that context.

Edit: Two things I thought of afterwards that I wanted to add:

I’m not here to preach that Australian legislation is superior. It’s far from perfect. It’s merely what I know (I’ve read the Firearms Act and regulations for my state more than once) and I’m providing it as an example of how the issue is managed in other countries (specifically here). The idea being to provide food for thought on possible options for the United States, and a case study that US policy makers can take learnings from.

Another issue with total bans on firearms that I did not touch on is primary production. Firearms are a very important tool for primary producers to protect both stock and crops from wildlife. This aspect is probably even more important here in Australia than the United States because of the impact of introduced species. Firearms form part of a comprenhensive program, which includes baiting, trapping, and biological controls, to manage feral specifics such as rabbits, foxes, deer, goats, boar, buffalo, wild dogs, feral cats, and cane toads. In addition to their threat to agricultural production, feral animals cause an immeasurable amount of damage to Australia’s unique ecosystems. Any controls need to recognise this importance and support primary producers and conservationists alike.
fastfinge 0 points 6y ago
You can continue to rationalize the evils of gun ownership all you like. The fact is that the United States has the largest number of violent crimes per capita of any first-world country, and the most liberal gun laws. Until gun ownership is significantly and drastically restricted, absolutely no change will occur. Yes, all of the other things you mention do need to happen. But until the vast majority of the population is stripped of there firearms, none of these other programs will have any effect what-so-ever, and aren't worth trying. Heck, I'm a Canadian. We have extremely restrictive gun laws, and the shooting in our capital a few years ago proved that they aren't nearly restrictive enough. I'd rather live in the UK; at least knives and vehicles are possible to dodge. You have absolutely no chance against a gun-toting maniac. And the advantages to society brought about by mass gun ownership are nowhere nearly worth the costs. If we want to increase freedom and liberty, while doing almost nothing to decrease safety, we can dismantle airport security, and/or remove any of hundreds of other examples of security theatre.
KillerLag 1 points 6y ago
Guns are not evil by themselves, they are tools that are used by people. They are capable of great harm in the wrong hands, but that is now always the case. I'm also a Canadian, and my father has a large collection of guns. He goes hunting on a regular basis and is very safe with them, having a gun lock on each weapon.

You mentined that you can dodge knives or vehicles... if someone wanted to cause harm, there are plenty of ways to do so. You can make a molotov cocktail with literally trash and a dollar's worth of gasoline, or make explosives out of stuff from a grocery store and camping stores.

It should be note that even in the UK, where they have extremely restrictive gun laws, very few of the guns had been obtained legally. Almost all were illegally imported or converted weapons, so the law doesn't change much.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/mar/15/so-america-this-is-how-you-do-gun-control

Mark Mastaglio, an expert on firearms who worked for the Forensic Science Service for 20 years, said there was no evidence that the ban on handguns after Dunblane had done anything to cut the criminal use of firearms. “It was very rare that there was ever leakage from the licensed gun owners to the criminal fraternity. Most guns used by criminal are either illegally imported or converted weapons. And that remains the case today,” said Mastaglio.
ReallyEpicFail 1 points 6y ago
There is a very different attitude to firearms in the UK compared to the US and possibly Canada, though. Firearm ownership is pretty rare, and attitudes mean that owners are unlikely to take their firearm out of storage (excepting hunting)
fastfinge 0 points 6y ago
"Guns don't kill people, people kill people" is one of those meaningless propaganda phrases used by NRA extremists to devalue the lives of the millions of people who have been killed by gun violence.

That's nice about your father, but totally irrelevant. The risk his hands might be the wrong ones exists. And unlike vehicles, airplanes, or any other "dangerous" technology, allowing him (or anyone else) to have guns gives our society absolutely no advantage what-so-ever. So it's frankly not worth allowing. Plus, having a gun makes it easier, and more likely, that someone will commit a crime of passion:

> The researchers found having access to a gun was tied to a three-fold increase in the likelihood that people would kill themselves.

> Anglemyer's team also found about a two-fold increased risk of death from murder among people who had access to a gun, compared to those without access to firearms.

$1

There is absolutely nothing that can justify this increased risk, not only (or even mainly) to gun-owners themselves, but to the people who have to live with them.
awesomesaucesaywhat 1 points 6y ago
It amuses me how shocked my parents and family are every time a shooting is reported. There are shootings everyday; this is the world I've grown up in. Honestly I'm surprised when a shooting isn't mentioned.
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