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Do schools for blind people teach echolocation? (self.Blind)
submitted by FromHereToEterniti
Do schools for blind people teach echolocation? I tried googling this, but couldn't find it. If they don't, why don't they do this? If they do, how do they teach this and is it effective?
Amonwilde 4 points 5y ago
Generally, no. Echolocation is supposedly pretty effective, but parents and teachers often stop young kids from doing it because it's perceived by the sighted as being antisocial, unsafe, or too complicated to teach and learn. I don't agree, but I'm low vision and don't echolocate myself.
Daniel Kisch runs a nonprofit that teaches echolocation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8lztr1tu4o To my knowledge, that's the only place that teaches echolocation.
This is the webpage of World Access for the Blind: https://waftb.org/
Daniel Kisch runs a nonprofit that teaches echolocation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8lztr1tu4o To my knowledge, that's the only place that teaches echolocation.
This is the webpage of World Access for the Blind: https://waftb.org/
FromHereToEterniti [OP] 1 points 5y ago
Ugh... I had some random thoughts about using animatronics to safely teach echolocation and wanted to verify some details (like how small are the objects you can see, does it work indoors etc) to see if it could be viable or even already in use. I had no idea echolocation is controversial.
Anyway, thanks for the link, I'll send Daniel an email and he should be able to answer my echolocation specific questions.
If possible I'd like some more feedback, now that I do know the topic is controversial, particularly why people think it *doesn't* work (I doubt Daniel will be very helpful with that).
>it's perceived by the sighted as being antisocial, unsafe, or too complicated to teach and learn.
I hope you are wrong on the antisocial remark (and even if it's true, I'm just going to dismiss that out of hand, that's not something I can address).
Does anyone know why it's unsafe? Is it unreliable under some circumstances? Is the distance you can see with it too short for practical use or inferior to other methods?
Regarding complicated to teach/learn, I'm pretty sure that if you take a four year old of normal intelligence, you should be able to teach them something like this, considering the immense plasticity of the human brain. I don't care if it's hard to teach, that's simply something that can be solved through experimentation and research. Anything specific that makes it hard to teach/learn?
Is there only a very small subset of blind people that have the ability to do this? I already rely to some degree on using the bounce back of sounds to orientate myself in some circumstances, that almost has to be common, but maybe its usability is capped and only a very small group of people can improve past that?
Any other possible reason why it *doesn't* work? Speculation is fine too, I just want to hear some ideas now (and it will help me ask more specific questions that Daniel can answer).
Anyway, thanks for the link, I'll send Daniel an email and he should be able to answer my echolocation specific questions.
If possible I'd like some more feedback, now that I do know the topic is controversial, particularly why people think it *doesn't* work (I doubt Daniel will be very helpful with that).
>it's perceived by the sighted as being antisocial, unsafe, or too complicated to teach and learn.
I hope you are wrong on the antisocial remark (and even if it's true, I'm just going to dismiss that out of hand, that's not something I can address).
Does anyone know why it's unsafe? Is it unreliable under some circumstances? Is the distance you can see with it too short for practical use or inferior to other methods?
Regarding complicated to teach/learn, I'm pretty sure that if you take a four year old of normal intelligence, you should be able to teach them something like this, considering the immense plasticity of the human brain. I don't care if it's hard to teach, that's simply something that can be solved through experimentation and research. Anything specific that makes it hard to teach/learn?
Is there only a very small subset of blind people that have the ability to do this? I already rely to some degree on using the bounce back of sounds to orientate myself in some circumstances, that almost has to be common, but maybe its usability is capped and only a very small group of people can improve past that?
Any other possible reason why it *doesn't* work? Speculation is fine too, I just want to hear some ideas now (and it will help me ask more specific questions that Daniel can answer).
KillerLag 1 points 5y ago
It isn't that echolocation is antisocial, but it is much different to what people expect, and that can be taken negatively. It can also be disruptive as well. For example, I don't see any issues using echolocation at home to get around.... but what about during a meeting at the office? Or during a class?
Echolocation is a useful tool, but one major drawback is reliablility. If the tool you use cannot consistently keep you safe, then that is a big issue. All you need is one major misstep that can lead to disastrous consequences. In the case of echolocation, it is the ability to detect drops offs (specifically, things such as holes or unexpected rises in the ground). Echolocation has never consistently been able to locate something that low (and according to studies, height differences as little as 3 mm are enough to trip many people). Not only that, but many times, drop-offs have hazards on the other side (traffic, stairs, etc). A white cane provides a much more definite tactile sensation when it locates a drof-off.
There are two versions of echolocation, active and passive. Active is the one you are thinking of, where you create a noise and listen to the echo. Passive is listening to the ambient noise reflecting off the walls to get a sense of your surroundings. During regular O&M training, we normally teach how to use the passive version (although we don't call it echolocation, we usually just say listening to sound cues and such).
There have been a number of tools that were created that use echolocation to help people, but the vast majority ended up failling. The Mowat sensor and the Russell Pathsounder were some of the first, which were handheld devices that sent out an ultrasonic signal, and would indicate distance via vibrations (Pathsounder had sound as well). More recently, there was the K Sonar and Ultracane, which is much the same thing but attached to a white cane.
https://www.engadget.com/2005/04/07/bat-k-sonar-cane/
https://www.ultracane.com/
I've used the Ultracane before, and it is pretty useful, but the cost makes it very difficult to get. And in those cases, the device itself is using echolocation and interpreting the results.
In a non-cane form, there are iGlasses (https://ambutech.com/shop-online/iglasses%E2%84%A2-ultrasonic-mobility-aid) which is the same set-up but in glasses.
Echolocation is a useful tool, but one major drawback is reliablility. If the tool you use cannot consistently keep you safe, then that is a big issue. All you need is one major misstep that can lead to disastrous consequences. In the case of echolocation, it is the ability to detect drops offs (specifically, things such as holes or unexpected rises in the ground). Echolocation has never consistently been able to locate something that low (and according to studies, height differences as little as 3 mm are enough to trip many people). Not only that, but many times, drop-offs have hazards on the other side (traffic, stairs, etc). A white cane provides a much more definite tactile sensation when it locates a drof-off.
There are two versions of echolocation, active and passive. Active is the one you are thinking of, where you create a noise and listen to the echo. Passive is listening to the ambient noise reflecting off the walls to get a sense of your surroundings. During regular O&M training, we normally teach how to use the passive version (although we don't call it echolocation, we usually just say listening to sound cues and such).
There have been a number of tools that were created that use echolocation to help people, but the vast majority ended up failling. The Mowat sensor and the Russell Pathsounder were some of the first, which were handheld devices that sent out an ultrasonic signal, and would indicate distance via vibrations (Pathsounder had sound as well). More recently, there was the K Sonar and Ultracane, which is much the same thing but attached to a white cane.
https://www.engadget.com/2005/04/07/bat-k-sonar-cane/
https://www.ultracane.com/
I've used the Ultracane before, and it is pretty useful, but the cost makes it very difficult to get. And in those cases, the device itself is using echolocation and interpreting the results.
In a non-cane form, there are iGlasses (https://ambutech.com/shop-online/iglasses%E2%84%A2-ultrasonic-mobility-aid) which is the same set-up but in glasses.
Amonwilde 1 points 5y ago
I'm not an expert in this, but let me try to answer your questions.
The antisocial thing is actually kind of a big issue and a reason it's not more widely adopted. Many sighted people find the clicking annoying or disruptive. Yes, I agree, that's petty and kind of shocking, but it's a serious impediment to adoption. Not so much for adult echolocators but for kids who often might naturally echolocate but who are told to stop clicking by parents and so never learn.
As for safety, there's nothing inherently unsafe about echolocation, but it emboldens the blind to move around and do things that the sighted often feel like blind people shouldn't be able to do. Yes, sounds like a feature rather than a bug, right? But once your blind kid is biking around or running around and getting cuts and bruises, many parents might discourage echolocation, either subtly or overtly. The sighted often have a pretty set idea of what blind people should and shouldn't do, and the stuff you might get up to with echolocation kind of doesn't fit that model.
Finally, for the teaching and learning, you have to understand that there's a long history and a sort of parochial culture around teaching mobility to the blind. It's kind of a little industry and like many industries once a set of customs are established they tend to stick around. Dog training is kind of the pinnacle of modern day mobility training and echolocation is just not something most mobility trainers are familiar with.
So the reason echolocation isn't more widely adopted has less to with its practicality and more to do with the wider culture and expectations of what blind people are supposed to be and do. That's my take on it.
The antisocial thing is actually kind of a big issue and a reason it's not more widely adopted. Many sighted people find the clicking annoying or disruptive. Yes, I agree, that's petty and kind of shocking, but it's a serious impediment to adoption. Not so much for adult echolocators but for kids who often might naturally echolocate but who are told to stop clicking by parents and so never learn.
As for safety, there's nothing inherently unsafe about echolocation, but it emboldens the blind to move around and do things that the sighted often feel like blind people shouldn't be able to do. Yes, sounds like a feature rather than a bug, right? But once your blind kid is biking around or running around and getting cuts and bruises, many parents might discourage echolocation, either subtly or overtly. The sighted often have a pretty set idea of what blind people should and shouldn't do, and the stuff you might get up to with echolocation kind of doesn't fit that model.
Finally, for the teaching and learning, you have to understand that there's a long history and a sort of parochial culture around teaching mobility to the blind. It's kind of a little industry and like many industries once a set of customs are established they tend to stick around. Dog training is kind of the pinnacle of modern day mobility training and echolocation is just not something most mobility trainers are familiar with.
So the reason echolocation isn't more widely adopted has less to with its practicality and more to do with the wider culture and expectations of what blind people are supposed to be and do. That's my take on it.
KillerLag 2 points 5y ago
I wanted to chime in, because you brought in some good points. But I wanted to address some of the other issues as well.
Echolocation can be a great tool to help people with vision loss travel around, but one major concern is reliability. If the tool you use cannot consistently keep you safe, then that is a big issue. All you need is one major misstep that can lead to disastrous consequences. In the case of echolocation, it is the ability to detect drops offs (specifically, things such as holes or unexpected rises in the ground). Echolocation has never consistently been able to locate something that low (and according to studies, height differences as little as 3 mm are enough to trip many people). Not only that, but many times, drop-offs have hazards on the other side (traffic, stairs, etc). A white cane provides a much more definite tactile sensation when it locates a drof-off.
Echolocation also does help children learn more about their enviroment, and it also gives them a greater sense of larger areas. There are two "variations" (not exactly sure how to describe that) of echolocation, active and passive. Active is the version where you make a noise (often with their mouths, but some people are use their cane) and listen to the response, while the passive is just listening to echos around you. The active one gives you significantly more information, but as you mentioned, is usually less socially acceptable. For most O&M training, we usually deal more with passive echolocation, where the client just listens to the enviroment for sound cues such as hallways (we don't normally refer to that as echolocation, although it is).
Another big reason why echolocation isn't taught more often is the 1) the lack of people who are proficient in it, 2) a lack of people who can teach the skill (just because someone can do it doesn't mean they can teach others) and 3), not that many clients want to (or have the ability to) learn that skill. 90% of my clients are over 60 years old, and at least half of them have hearing loss, balance issues or other health concerns. One client (before O&M training) had tripped on a crack in the sidewalk (roughly 2 mm high), fell, and broke NINE bones. The cane was able to provide more sensory feedback to inform her when there were imperfections in the road.
Considering all that, I do think there is a place for echolocation training, but I believe it should be to supplement cane training. I've spoken to Mr Kish before (I doubt he would remember) and have suggested to one client to contact him for training (that was a highly unusual case, when we weren't sure if that client was able to use a cane).
Echolocation can be a great tool to help people with vision loss travel around, but one major concern is reliability. If the tool you use cannot consistently keep you safe, then that is a big issue. All you need is one major misstep that can lead to disastrous consequences. In the case of echolocation, it is the ability to detect drops offs (specifically, things such as holes or unexpected rises in the ground). Echolocation has never consistently been able to locate something that low (and according to studies, height differences as little as 3 mm are enough to trip many people). Not only that, but many times, drop-offs have hazards on the other side (traffic, stairs, etc). A white cane provides a much more definite tactile sensation when it locates a drof-off.
Echolocation also does help children learn more about their enviroment, and it also gives them a greater sense of larger areas. There are two "variations" (not exactly sure how to describe that) of echolocation, active and passive. Active is the version where you make a noise (often with their mouths, but some people are use their cane) and listen to the response, while the passive is just listening to echos around you. The active one gives you significantly more information, but as you mentioned, is usually less socially acceptable. For most O&M training, we usually deal more with passive echolocation, where the client just listens to the enviroment for sound cues such as hallways (we don't normally refer to that as echolocation, although it is).
Another big reason why echolocation isn't taught more often is the 1) the lack of people who are proficient in it, 2) a lack of people who can teach the skill (just because someone can do it doesn't mean they can teach others) and 3), not that many clients want to (or have the ability to) learn that skill. 90% of my clients are over 60 years old, and at least half of them have hearing loss, balance issues or other health concerns. One client (before O&M training) had tripped on a crack in the sidewalk (roughly 2 mm high), fell, and broke NINE bones. The cane was able to provide more sensory feedback to inform her when there were imperfections in the road.
Considering all that, I do think there is a place for echolocation training, but I believe it should be to supplement cane training. I've spoken to Mr Kish before (I doubt he would remember) and have suggested to one client to contact him for training (that was a highly unusual case, when we weren't sure if that client was able to use a cane).
Amonwilde 1 points 5y ago
My understanding is that echolocation isn't really a replacement for the cane. Daniel Kisch uses a cane as well as echolocation (at least he does in the videos I've seen). Also, , my comments were more about active echolocation, rather than passive echolocation, which I think in general isn't really referred to by the term echolocation even though it technically is.
But you make some good points. Some of the blind experience is about "passing" and fitting in with sighted folks without them thinking you're too weird. If echolocation interferes with that, many blind folks will choose not to do it. With that said, I think it's a useful tool and is trans formative for many people, especially blind children.
But you make some good points. Some of the blind experience is about "passing" and fitting in with sighted folks without them thinking you're too weird. If echolocation interferes with that, many blind folks will choose not to do it. With that said, I think it's a useful tool and is trans formative for many people, especially blind children.
FromHereToEterniti [OP] 1 points 5y ago
Thanks for your response.
Amonwilde 1 points 5y ago
Good luck with your project and your research. I think echolocation should be supported more than it is.
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