Blind and Visually Impaired Community
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Your thoughts on web accessibility? (self.Blind)
submitted by extrablankets
Hi! I'm a front-end web designer and developer. I am working toward a specialization in web accessibility. I was wondering if anyone was up for a brief discussion or giving any input on modern web accessibility. What do you like? What don't you like? What are your thoughts on navigating the web in general?
If you have any questions just let me know. I appreciate everyone's time.
If you have any questions just let me know. I appreciate everyone's time.
estj136 3 points 5y ago
I usually have little trouble and no issues with Reddit if I use the bacon reader app. I am really liking reddit, and play on the MBTI and Eneagram forums a lot. I forgot about HP I’ll have to check it out!
I find educational sites to be the worse that and government bassed sites. Some sites and systems are better than others, for sure. Some more work based sites can be pretty bad. I know word press can be better. Usually the internet works fine. Most of the fun, sites are actually pretty good. I wish education, government, and work based sites would be the same. No one like using those systems anyway! Surprisingly the school newspaper site is really really accessible.
Most apps on the iphone works great! I am liking slack for instance. Recently my newest apps I am using is Reddit and Slack.
I find educational sites to be the worse that and government bassed sites. Some sites and systems are better than others, for sure. Some more work based sites can be pretty bad. I know word press can be better. Usually the internet works fine. Most of the fun, sites are actually pretty good. I wish education, government, and work based sites would be the same. No one like using those systems anyway! Surprisingly the school newspaper site is really really accessible.
Most apps on the iphone works great! I am liking slack for instance. Recently my newest apps I am using is Reddit and Slack.
extrablankets [OP] 1 points 5y ago
That's great! I've been hearing that Reddit holds up pretty well to screen readers. I agree that education and government sites need to have better accessible user experiences. Yes, Reddit is such a great site to get lost in. So many topics to explore. That's cool that you're using Slack. We use it as our messenger at my work. Thanks for the input! Please share any other experiences you've had whether good or not so good.
estj136 1 points 5y ago
I work in media and it’s our primary messenger as well. It’s interesting.
Yeah,government and education needs to be better. I’ve not given canvas much of a go, but moodle and blackboard could use with improvement. I used blackboard more than Moodle, but blackboard was a real pain to use. I can hardly navigate the school site. I hear that the sighted people aren’t doing much better though! Hahahaha!! Somewhat better!
I kind of disagree. Reddit can be both accessible and inaccessible. The official app is somewhat useful, but it could be better. The site I heard is combersome to screen readers, and not that great. Both of my friends are efficient windows users great at screen reading. One is a coder, programer, or at least use to be. The other teaches computers and Jaws, or did. He still does when he get clients. So, it’s not a lack of experience. I prefer the bacon reader over anything, honestly. Whoever coded this, did a fantastic job.
I also use three platforms IOS OXS and windows.
Facebook and twitter sort of work but the apps and mobile sites are better. Especially facebook! Twitter has a better site in terms of accessibility. I am also sort of in a way lazy. I like things to be quick and very easy not because I can’t figure it out, I value efficiency over anything.
I think tumblr has gotten better I don’t know about the app though.
Oh yes, Proboards for freeforums.net has a poor layout, but vbulletin isn’t really much better. I am on personality cafe, and they use Vbulletin, and it can be a bit of a nightmare. On freeforums it’s free but the editing features can be poor. For instance the delete is purely graphic, I don’t actually understand why. The one for moving is as well. I understand that one more, because it’s a drag and drop system.
Yeah,government and education needs to be better. I’ve not given canvas much of a go, but moodle and blackboard could use with improvement. I used blackboard more than Moodle, but blackboard was a real pain to use. I can hardly navigate the school site. I hear that the sighted people aren’t doing much better though! Hahahaha!! Somewhat better!
I kind of disagree. Reddit can be both accessible and inaccessible. The official app is somewhat useful, but it could be better. The site I heard is combersome to screen readers, and not that great. Both of my friends are efficient windows users great at screen reading. One is a coder, programer, or at least use to be. The other teaches computers and Jaws, or did. He still does when he get clients. So, it’s not a lack of experience. I prefer the bacon reader over anything, honestly. Whoever coded this, did a fantastic job.
I also use three platforms IOS OXS and windows.
Facebook and twitter sort of work but the apps and mobile sites are better. Especially facebook! Twitter has a better site in terms of accessibility. I am also sort of in a way lazy. I like things to be quick and very easy not because I can’t figure it out, I value efficiency over anything.
I think tumblr has gotten better I don’t know about the app though.
Oh yes, Proboards for freeforums.net has a poor layout, but vbulletin isn’t really much better. I am on personality cafe, and they use Vbulletin, and it can be a bit of a nightmare. On freeforums it’s free but the editing features can be poor. For instance the delete is purely graphic, I don’t actually understand why. The one for moving is as well. I understand that one more, because it’s a drag and drop system.
extrablankets [OP] 1 points 5y ago
Hi! It is certainly concerning when educational and government organizations are lacking in their accessible user experience.
Using NVDA, myself, I notice some annoyances with Reddit. And, it was pointed out that they lack some accessible interface feedback in things such as the up and down votes.
I could certainly see forums being a hotbed of accessible issues. I'll have to take a look at those myself.
Using NVDA, myself, I notice some annoyances with Reddit. And, it was pointed out that they lack some accessible interface feedback in things such as the up and down votes.
I could certainly see forums being a hotbed of accessible issues. I'll have to take a look at those myself.
estj136 1 points 5y ago
Yeah, some of them can be. I use an iphone app, and I usually don’t find it to be so much of an issue.
derrekjthompson 3 points 5y ago
Just Safari. Most captchas are accessible nowadays but I still come across some that aren't. Usually the ones that aren't are on smaller sites actually. By smaller I mean sites that aren't big companies.
LanceThunder 3 points 5y ago
hey, i am also a sighted front-end person who is interested in web accessibility. i don't know if it helps but from what they tell me wikipedia is very accessible for people who use screen readers. it also seems that reddit is pretty accessible.
extrablankets [OP] 2 points 5y ago
Hi! It's certainly important for informational sites to be fully accessible. I'm definitely curious to have a discussion about the daily usage of the web by the visually impaired.
derrekjthompson 2 points 5y ago
Another area that’s important is online services that businesses use internally. There are so many jobs the blind can do if the software involved is accessible. And as has already been said, many things are accessible on accident.
extrablankets [OP] 1 points 5y ago
That's a very good point.
LanceThunder 2 points 5y ago
have you managed to find any good resources on how to make a front-end accessible? all the info i have found is extremely dry and a little confusing.
extrablankets [OP] 4 points 5y ago
There are too many resources out there to name, but some of the biggest things to keep in mind are semantic tags, alt / title tags, proper headline hierarchy, efficient layouts, etc.
extrablankets [OP] 5 points 5y ago
This is a good start: https://www.w3.org/WAI/gettingstarted/
Where_The_Sauce_At 2 points 5y ago
I am a former web developer who changed careers due to deteriorating eyesight. I've been following ADA-compliance law for a bit concerning the web, and thought I'd share some insight.
US Government websites are required to be ADA compliant with ARIA or screenreader versions, however, personal/business websites are not. This was challenged in Florida last year with the infamous $1.
Without federal regulation, it's been left up to the states, and further, the municipalities in each area, and is sort of in a free-for-all area at the moment.
All of the younger people I know use the accessibility function on their phones for general web browsing. What's cool is that developers like you don't need to buy a screenreader to test things out, you just need to set your phone temporarily.
I would like to challenge you and developers like you to use the accessibility feature for a whole day. It's one thing to code in ARIA "theoretically," but it can be entirely different for the end user. My quick example is the **data-aria-polite** attribute, which I feel really requires the programmer to experience it before trying to tack it into everything.
US Government websites are required to be ADA compliant with ARIA or screenreader versions, however, personal/business websites are not. This was challenged in Florida last year with the infamous $1.
Without federal regulation, it's been left up to the states, and further, the municipalities in each area, and is sort of in a free-for-all area at the moment.
All of the younger people I know use the accessibility function on their phones for general web browsing. What's cool is that developers like you don't need to buy a screenreader to test things out, you just need to set your phone temporarily.
I would like to challenge you and developers like you to use the accessibility feature for a whole day. It's one thing to code in ARIA "theoretically," but it can be entirely different for the end user. My quick example is the **data-aria-polite** attribute, which I feel really requires the programmer to experience it before trying to tack it into everything.
extrablankets [OP] 2 points 5y ago
I am learning a lot by studying 508 and ADA. Definitely a needed foundation, but can certainly be improved and built upon. As I've transitioned to focusing on web accessibility, I've starting using NVDA to test the various sites I personally frequent as well as larger well known sites to see how they handle things. I haven't much used the accessibility features on my iPhone yet, but I've been thinking about taking time in my schedule some day soon and only using accessible features on my devices for an entire day.
I agree with you about just putting in ARIA tags and calling it done. My personal philosophy is to really consider the accessible user experience versus just doing the minimum to pass an ADA scan. It's honestly simple enough to make those considerations as you're in the design phase and building phase of a website.
I agree with you about just putting in ARIA tags and calling it done. My personal philosophy is to really consider the accessible user experience versus just doing the minimum to pass an ADA scan. It's honestly simple enough to make those considerations as you're in the design phase and building phase of a website.
extrablankets [OP] 2 points 5y ago
Thank you for getting in on the conversation. I will respond as soon as I can. :)
bmbenger 2 points 5y ago
Great topic!
extrablankets [OP] 1 points 5y ago
Thank you! Any input? :)
bradley22 2 points 5y ago
I have no problem navigating the web.
Having said that, I've contacted reddit to talk about accessibility. I got an answer about half a year ago from a web developer who develops reddit. They have not gotten back to me since then and i'm not sure if my issues will be discussed and fixed.
None of the edit boxes have <label. text tied to them.
I'm not sure how useful shortcuts to subreddits you've signed up to would be, I'm used to doing it this way, tabbing or arrowing to a subreddit and then pressing enter on it.
For example; I'd find the Harry Potter subreddit and press enter on it and it would load.
With a shortcut that the user could make, I could press Control+shift+h to jump to and click on the Harry potter subreddit, with no tabbing around or arrowing to it.
Having said that, I've contacted reddit to talk about accessibility. I got an answer about half a year ago from a web developer who develops reddit. They have not gotten back to me since then and i'm not sure if my issues will be discussed and fixed.
None of the edit boxes have <label. text tied to them.
I'm not sure how useful shortcuts to subreddits you've signed up to would be, I'm used to doing it this way, tabbing or arrowing to a subreddit and then pressing enter on it.
For example; I'd find the Harry Potter subreddit and press enter on it and it would load.
With a shortcut that the user could make, I could press Control+shift+h to jump to and click on the Harry potter subreddit, with no tabbing around or arrowing to it.
extrablankets [OP] 1 points 5y ago
That is unfortunate. It's sad when companies aren't responsive or proactive about these things.
The keyboard shortcut concept is really interesting. I've actually been bouncing around the idea of writing accessible plugins for specific websites that could be loaded from a library. These plugins or scripts would solve accessibility issues until the sites themselves implement fixes as well as serve as a working demonstration and solution.
Would you mind sharing what your accessible setup is? Screen readers, utilities, browser, etc? Thank you!
The keyboard shortcut concept is really interesting. I've actually been bouncing around the idea of writing accessible plugins for specific websites that could be loaded from a library. These plugins or scripts would solve accessibility issues until the sites themselves implement fixes as well as serve as a working demonstration and solution.
Would you mind sharing what your accessible setup is? Screen readers, utilities, browser, etc? Thank you!
bradley22 2 points 5y ago
Sure. I'm using the latest version of Firefox and Google Chrome, (I mostly use Firefox but Chrome is faster.)
I'm using the latest version of NVDA www.nvaccess.org and the latest version of windows.
I'm using the latest version of NVDA www.nvaccess.org and the latest version of windows.
extrablankets [OP] 1 points 5y ago
Do you mind if I message you later to get more feedback on your experience using Reddit?
bradley22 2 points 5y ago
Not at all.
extrablankets [OP] 1 points 5y ago
Awesome! Thank you!
webgurl83 2 points 5y ago
OK here are my thoughts in a nutshell. Most of it is relative. I personally don't have much trouble navigating and using the web. There are friends I have who do though, and it seems to be based on experience. A friend of mine thinks that it's impossible to navigate Reddit, but if that were actually the case, I wouldn't be here. I'll give you the rest of my thoughts in a PM.
extrablankets [OP] 2 points 5y ago
I definitely agree with you. And that is true about any user base with varying degrees of experience. Even though you are comfortable with navigating something like Reddit, are there still things you'd really like to see changed about it that would make it faster or easier to navigate?
webgurl83 2 points 5y ago
Lol I'd like to actually get the email notifications of new messages. I don't for some reason. The multireddit thingy is in the way sometimes, but I can skip it if I navigate straight to the voting buttons. Other than that, not really.
PrinceYann 2 points 5y ago
You may subscribe to the feed of your inbox as an alternative.
webgurl83 1 points 5y ago
Well it's a private feed so for some reason it doesn't contain any items.
extrablankets [OP] 1 points 5y ago
That is odd you don’t get the small notifications. I’ll turn mine on and see if they work. Sounds like Reddit is fairly solid. I’m not hearing many complaints from anyone. 🙂 Thanks for your input.
webgurl83 1 points 5y ago
Reddit is one of the most solid sites I've ever used. There's very little, (or if any,) change which makes things easy, although change is good sometimes.
derrekjthompson 2 points 5y ago
This isn't a spisific site, but I just thought of an example where an alternate version would be better. Stuff where you have to click on an area of a map to get the information or to navigate the interface. Can't think of a spisific site but I know I've encountered this before.
extrablankets [OP] 1 points 5y ago
That’s a great example. The last time I developed a location map I also made a text only version that pulls from the same data. My regret is that it doesn’t have search or filter options... yet.
[deleted] 1 points 5y ago
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Ramildo 2 points 5y ago
Most of the web is accessible by accident, but that doesn't stop it from being extremely annoying sometimes. $1, which I used to read every day before going blind, is an example of a site that's extremely annoying to navigate since its content is not semantic (i.e.: headlines aren't marked with heading tags, there are no landmarks, tab stops don't prioritize headlines, etc.). Then there are those websites (such as my bank's)that I can't use on Windows because they require me to literally click with the mouse somewhere as they are scripted to read the position of the mouse when OnClick events are triggered, and Windows screen-readers (at least NVDA and Narrator) lack the option to move the mouse to the object with the review cursor.
extrablankets [OP] 1 points 5y ago
Interesting. Thank you for your input. Have you had any luck with alerting Fark or your bank to these issues?
Ramildo 2 points 5y ago
I have simply stopped reading FARK altogether since it's too annoying to navigate, and when I wish to access my bank's website I use my Mac because VoiceOver supports moving the mouse to the current element and emulating a mouse click.
webgurl83 2 points 5y ago
By the way, Fark has RSS. http://www.fark.com/fark.rss Whenever there's a site that you're having problems with, you can always look to see if they have one. It makes things easier to read, and not only that if you subscribe you'll get all the updates.
extrablankets [OP] 1 points 5y ago
That is certainly unfortunate. If you're interested in providing me more input on your experience with Fark, I'd like to see what I can accomplish by getting in touch with them. Is it ok if I message you later?
extrablankets [OP] 1 points 5y ago
I'd be interested in learning more about your general experience with navigating the web or any other specific cases of annoyance.
[deleted] 1 points 5y ago
[deleted]
derrekjthompson 1 points 5y ago
My thoughts are that most things could be easily accessible if accessibility was kept in mind during the initial design. Just label your buttons and links properly, use standard controls that screen readers already understand, and if your getting fancy with the design provide an alternative simplified version. I'm not a web developer at all but as a totally blind person who lives on the web I feel I can speak on this. Also, I think the decline of Flash as improved accessibility quite a bit.
extrablankets [OP] 1 points 5y ago
I completely agree. I'm becoming a big advocate for making a more accessible web. Flash going away was absolutely necessary.
I've had thoughts recently about sites creating alternate simplified versions of their pages. Do you have a site that you've gone to recently that could use an alternate version versus being more semantic in the existing code?
Feel free to share more of your experiences, I'm really wanting to see where some of the more common pain points are for visually impaired users.
Thanks!
I've had thoughts recently about sites creating alternate simplified versions of their pages. Do you have a site that you've gone to recently that could use an alternate version versus being more semantic in the existing code?
Feel free to share more of your experiences, I'm really wanting to see where some of the more common pain points are for visually impaired users.
Thanks!
derrekjthompson 2 points 5y ago
Well, I can't think of any off the top of my head. I don't use sites that I can't use. lol But I know Twitter has an alternate version of their interface for the blind in their IOS app that works really well. The only issue is when they add new features or changes there can be a slight delay before we get them. Normally I would just want them to modify the existing site but there are certain stylistic choices where you really can't have both so I would say the alternate version should be a last resort. I know Gmail used to have one that I used but they stopped and made their regular interface more accessible. And I agree that the headings and other navigational markers are important too, more for usability than accessibility. There's a difference between really being able to use something and being accessible enough to sort of use it, if that makes any sense. Also, I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up, if you use an image captcha without providing an alternative your completely blocking the blind. This is probably the most frustrating thing. I mostly surf the net on my phone these days and mobile optimized sites are sort of simplified as a byproduct.
extrablankets [OP] 1 points 5y ago
That’s true, it probably does help that mobile sites naturally end up simplified. I actually assumed all captchas were accessible. Pretty dumb to not be. What mobile browser do you use?
BandGS88 2 points 5y ago
pleas do not do the simplified alternative webpage. They tend to get overlooked when making updates to the main site, and after a few months, your alternative site is missing key features.
derrekjthompson 1 points 5y ago
This is true and I brought this up in a comment below.
extrablankets [OP] 1 points 5y ago
I agree. My personal solution would be to have a a content management system template variant. That way, the content is the same, but the design and layout is simplified. That means, publish once, cover all.
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