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Blind and Visually Impaired Community

Full History - 2018 - 03 - 07 - ID#82ug9d
29
Sighted white knights (self.Blind)
submitted by AllHarlowsEve
Has anyone else noticed that a lot of the posts on this sub, at least the ones that come up to the front page, are sighted people with "new ideas" or a study?

From what I've seen, they don't gather information before designing... something, to make blind lives easier. In some cases, they're solving problems that don't actually exist, or are incredibly unlikely.

If it's not an unusual problem, it's to solve a problem there's already many, many solutions for. In these cases, googling their idea's description shows variations of it that already exist.

I just wish there was a polite way of saying, "please discuss with us before trying to solve our already solved issues."
KillerLag 15 points 5y ago
A lot of them are not actual products that will go into production, but actually university design projects. One of the steps for those projects is gathering potential customer data, so they can show the steps.
AllHarlowsEve [OP] 7 points 5y ago
I get that, but a lot seem to be at the "I have a product idea to solve this issue I came up with, tell me what you think" stage, rather than the, "What's an issue real, living, breathing blind people have" stage by the time they post here.

I try to respond to any posts asking legitimate questions and who seem to value our input as an integral part of the design process, but that kind of stuff just... imitates me more than it should.

It'd be like designing a La-Z-Boy wheel chair without talking to anyone who actually uses a chair, only to find out that they don't want that because it's huge, heavy, and harder to clean.
KillerLag 5 points 5y ago
Oh, I hear you. I was once talking to someone, and they had this idea of a Braille nametag thing that you put on the back of your hand, so when someone who is blind shakes your hand, they can feel the Braille and know your name. I pointed out that people can also say "Hi, my name is Mr So-and-so".
AllHarlowsEve [OP] 3 points 5y ago
I can only read Braille with one finger, I can't really feel any of my other fingertips as well, so an unexpected series of bumps would just make me think of warts, not "stroke this hand to read it".
KillerLag 3 points 5y ago
"Hmm... your warts on your hand strongly suggest you see a doctor".

[deleted] 1 points 5y ago
[deleted]
saizai 1 points 5y ago
That's actually pretty funny as a sightedfail misunderstanding of how Braille works.
KillerLag 2 points 5y ago
Oh, yeah... or how many times, I would go to do a workplace assessment, and there is a piece of paper from a regular printer with Braille on it. Because they just assume the font is enough (luckily, HR seems to be getting better at that now, I haven't seen a sign like that in a few years).
awesomesaucesaywhat 11 points 5y ago
Don’t forget the knights irl. Uber drivers keep trying to buckle my seatbelt for me, people want to guide my instead of trusting me and my guide dog, people asking me if I’m lost while I’m sitting on the metro... it’s a long list
SunnyLego 4 points 5y ago
I had someone grab my arm from behind when I was on a escalator and ask if I'm ok. I was until you scared the fuck out of me by grabbing me from behind on a moving object!
saizai 2 points 5y ago
Ditto. And when I was about to walk into a wall with my cane (perfectly fine, would've gone around without issue if they hadn't interfered).

And when getting off a train with a significant step / gap I needed to coordinate. And when crossing a street. And when choosing to _not_ cross a street they thought I should. And…

It's pretty much every single time I go out, unless I'm with someone else. I still startle every time.

Not to mention the people who grab your cane, or _move_ it from where you put it down. (Makes me _really_ tempted to ask how they would like it if I grabbed _them_ by the eyeballs… I get that they don't have any idea and are "just trying to help", so I'm not allowed to actually get angry with them. But still.)
AllHarlowsEve [OP] 3 points 5y ago
Wait, like, riding the metro? Sorry, that mental image is just hilarious.

Like, how do they think you picked the train, or got into the metro station, but got lost on the line or something?

Did you just like, completely cease to know how to walk while sitting?

Some people are so silly.
awesomesaucesaywhat 6 points 5y ago
Haha I should have said I was riding IN the metro.

I have no clue what these people think , other than “oh that poor blind girl, I’ll help and save the day!”
blindjo 4 points 5y ago
The worst is when you walk into a room and forget what you're doing and then walk out. It happens to everyone- blind and sighted alike, but people just automatically assume that we're lost haha
saizai 2 points 5y ago
I don't think such people even have a thought process about "how did this blindie manage to get here in the first place". I've been in lots of situations where it would've been pretty impossible for me to be there without knowing what I was doing, and still got this.

Hell, I've gotten the "walk up and grab my arm with no warning" treatment at a _psychologist's_ office. And to add to it, the psych then treated my rebuke of the employee who grabbed me as an indication that there was something wrong with me.

One would think people there would know not to randomly assault patients, who might well have PTSD or a history of assault or any number of other issues. But … nope.
derrekjthompson 2 points 5y ago
I realized something about these. They're not asking because they care about helping you. They do this because watching you walk around by yourself makes them uncomfortable.
awesomesaucesaywhat 1 points 5y ago
Yup!
saizai 1 points 5y ago
Don't forget all the people who suddenly grab you when you're near a corner, stairs, wall, door, etc. etc. without even asking whether you want directions. Or grab my cane (or dog in your case). Or tell you not to have your cane in front of you where it might touching other people in a crowd…

And then they get pissy when I tell 'em to not grab me, or to not tell me how to use my cane. "Just trying to help", etc etc.

I've been tempted to print up some cards of blind etiquette that start with "hello, person who just assaulted me…".
estj136 4 points 5y ago
I do notice that, yeah. As a totally blind person, it’s interesting. I try to be polite about it, you learn such skills in media and public relations. I feel bad for not responding to everyone, but it feels like I am giving similar answers. It’s like refer to said answer. I answered it before.

I am a journalist, and it’s like me going up to the director of an organization and asking so what is your organization and tell me what is the basics that you do? Duh! Did you read our website. Would be a correct response. If it’s inaccessible that would be a problem, but if it’s accessible, it would be a problem that the journalist had. Research is important. Asking question is great, but as a journalist, which in many other disciplines sad to say is not taught as well as in journalism, but is always to do some basic research first. If you ask google a question, usually you’ll get a basic, if you have further questions that need extensive analysis then ask. I just answered a question and as a journalist, I think some basic research with these questions may have helped:

1. What is a cane?
2. What does it do?
3. How well does it work for blind people?
If you put those in to google, I am sure you’ll find many stories.
Warthil 4 points 5y ago
I am fairly new here but I have also noticed a surprising number of students seeking blind or partially sighted people for study. They are well meaning undergrads for the most part who have not done sufficient research before forming questions. I have to say I feel it is intrusive at times.

Those who speak about developing physical devices or software without any understanding or previous research annoy me more. If you have not done enough work on your own to know a little about your target audience it feels like it is highly unlikely your product will ever be a reality.
AllHarlowsEve [OP] 2 points 5y ago
Exactly. I'm an open book, I'll talk about just about any part of my blindness experience, but I cannot stand when sighted people try to tell me what being blind is like, or how blind people deal with X Y or Z.

If they'd done a precursory google search, or asked in here to get a better understanding before reinventing the wheel, I'd have pretty much no issue with it.
modulus 4 points 5y ago
I felt precisely that way about one of these posts and wrote a comment on it. On second thought it seemed quite impolite and I deleted it immediately. But There's indeed a tendency to use blind people as some sort of target group for design exercises and so on, which, ok, fine, but there's a lot of previous work done on this and it often attempts to solve the wrong problems, and so on. Oh well.
AllHarlowsEve [OP] 8 points 5y ago
So many I just... I look, then close it.

If they'd ever spoken to a real blind person, instead of just guessing what blindness is like, they'd see huge issues with their idea, but I don't want to turn them completely away from assistive tech by being Captain Super Bitch.
U5efull 2 points 5y ago
The problem is, we don't encounter blind folk very often. I think I've met 3 blind people my entire life. You folks are tough to find!
saizai 2 points 5y ago
It's a ratio issue.

Ballpark 0.4 to 2.5% of people are blind, depending on what you include.[1]

Ballpark 1.5% of USians use white canes.[2] Ballpark 0.06% of USians use a guide dog. The rest presumably pass as sighted.

So it's actually not as rare as one might think. Of course, there's a selection bias in who you meet, due to issues w/ blind people having lower socioeconomic status and being less likely to go out as much.

Even so, you meet one blind person just randomly walking around pretty rarely. We, however, meet sighted people all the fucking time. And in particular, we involuntarily meet the small percentage of 'em who're the asshole "helpers" who randomly grab.

I'd guess you meet a lot more blind (or VI) people than you think; you just don't realize it because they don't have the obvious white cane or dog, or you meet them online, where you wouldn't have reason to know.

[1] https://nfb.org/blindness-statistics
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs282/en/
[2] https://www.nibib.nih.gov/sites/default/files/Sensory%20Substitution%20Glove.pdf
U5efull 1 points 5y ago
that's a very good observation
Snessrek 3 points 5y ago
I can speak only from the perspective of a blind scientist, and I know what you mean. It really takes brilliance to innovate, which is why I think a lot of scientists/engineers etc are essentially trying to repeat what's already been done. Unfortunately a lot of it is about doing something better, aka cheaper. As for consulting blind people, some do, some don't. But any scientist worth their salt can spot a garbage paper relatively easily.

Have faith, though - I know first hand there are many, many amazing people working on amazing projects to make our lives easier as blind people all over the world. Technology is like photography - the more photos you take; that is, the more things you invent, the more likely one of them will turn out amazing :)
U5efull 2 points 5y ago
This is precisely why I asked what the community struggled with. It's why I didn't make a 'special blind version' of the site, why I made sure everything just ran in a hierarchy that made sense and why I make my hidden comments as short as possible but yet logical.

I think as a seeing person, we don't understand the challenges and we are looking for things to fix, but really we over think the problem and should probably just design a good flow that works from the top down logically.
AllHarlowsEve [OP] 3 points 5y ago
I'm not sure which was your post, but I appreciate trying to make a single streamlined version of your site a lot.

I've just seen a couple posts, along with stuff of this sub, that play into the helpless, bumbling blind person trope, and seeing a post that implied that blind people are kitchen accidents waiting to happen kind of set me off.

I was 18 when I lost my vision, I'm 23 now, and I get the struggle of not understanding blind folks, but its just so damn irritating to be assumed to need constant help to do basic life stuff, without people even asking if we *do* struggle with it.
U5efull 2 points 5y ago
I appreciate the frustration, it's annoying to have to explain to people every day what you guys deal with. I read this sub often and see a lot of the same tropes and questions, but since I'm not blind I never speak up.

One thing I've learned from this community is that if someone doesn't like something we will certainly hear it.

Feel free to vent, and understand that I get it.

I certainly asked a lot of the same stupid questions. Reading the FAQ on blind readers didn't help as much as using some of the tools you folks suggested.

Once I used my phone with my eyes closed and tried to use a webpage with only accessibility options I learned a hell of a lot. That was all because so many of you helped me to understand the challenges and also what didn't need fixed.

So thanks, it does help.
AllHarlowsEve [OP] 2 points 5y ago
Genuinely, I don't mind answering questions, only when people skip the information-getting stage and instead just presume incompetence.

I'd rather answer the same question 500 times than be told what I deal with, in regards to things people are designing solutions for.

It'd be like if blind people made giant saucer goggles for sighted people who need glasses because they've heard that sighted people have vision in their peripherals not just straight ahead, then not baskingsighted people if they wanted new glasses, what issue the current ones have, things like that.
saizai 1 points 5y ago
What website are you referring to?
U5efull 2 points 5y ago
I don't post my site data here to prevent doxing. I actually run a few personal sites and also manage a couple of sites for my company as well as manage interface design for some other projects.
saizai 1 points 5y ago
> I just wish there was a polite way of saying, "please discuss with us before trying to solve our already solved issues."

I think the polite way of saying that is "please discuss with us before trying to solve our already solved issues."

:)
Fange_Strellow 1 points 5y ago
Blind folks, the annoyance with over-eager individuals is valid and I'm not going to say I don't experience it either. However, try to rembmer the historical context of where people's perceptions of disability used to be. Encountering a little annoyance from some over eager individuals is much better than being completely ignored and barred from most of society. Apreciate the interest and curiosity of others, and use those awkward opportunities to connect with someone new, maybe even pass on a little education. I don't want to here any of the "it is not my responsibility to educate" nonsense because it absolutely is. It is the only way we get further in this world of the sighted.
AllHarlowsEve [OP] 6 points 5y ago
My issue is with the people who still operate from that mentality.

If they are presuming my incompetence after blindness-related training from their experience of closing their eyes, then I have an issue.

If they're gathering data for the first steps of their project and want to do good things with blind people in mind, great. If we're just sad sacks who they assume can't cook, clean, tend house, pay bills, whatever, without asking, I'm going to be frustrated.

A simple question of "Do you struggle with this?" rather than "Blind people struggle with this, so what do you think of this solution?" would go a long way in making me not annoyed.
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