What do people think about ELIA on Kickstarter?(kickstarter.com)
submitted 5.30515837191358y ago by KillerLag
blindjo10 points5y ago
Not a fan.
First of all, they start off their video in an inaccessible way- like would it really be that hard to read out whatever text they were showing on the screen? I know its a minor detail but it immediately indicates that this is intended for a sighted audience, not a blind one.
My next issue with this is their "evidence" that most blind people can't read braille. Yes, braille literacy is low, but that's mostly because 1. A large portion of the visually impaired population has some remaining sight and 2. the massive increase in screen-reading technology. Yeah, braille is really difficult to learn at a later age, and admittedly i read braille about as fast as a kindergartener reads any text, but attributing the low braille literacy to difficulty alone is just plain wrong.
My next issue is practicality- when the heck could this ever be used? It seems like it would be much more difficult to learn to differentiate between at least 26 complex different symbols than it would be to remember the combinations of 6 dots. I can't imagine anyone reading this with speed and accuracy.
And i know he mentioned that sizing is adjustable, but even at a small "font," the symbols would probably take up just as much space or more than good ole braille. And we all know how bulky braille books can be. So an average book can still take up several large volumes.
Speaking anecdotally here- most people i know don't use paper all that often anyone. Most of my braille reading friends use braille displays to do their work. Can this company produce an elia equivalent? Or can elia ONLY be read on paper- thus making it mostly useless to tech-loving people
And what would people do if their printer broke down? They'd be out of a writing system (at least temporarily), unless this company can design and produce its own type of slate.
I know this got ranty, but this really does seem like a silly idea through snd through
bradley223 points5y ago
I totally agree with you. I will not be backing this project. How would books be made using this stuff anyway? A machine would have to print out page after page of these letters and depending on the size of the letters, we could actually end up with bigger books than braille has at the moment. I am slow at reading braille but that is mainly because as you said, I prefer my screen reader. I think this is suited more for the elderly and those who haven't learnt braille. I think if someone who reads braille tryed to learn this system, they'd not find it useful. If this became a thing in the UK, I'd look at it and if it works for people, great! But I doubt I'd use it.
KillerLag [OP]1 points5y ago
Heh, they can also bring back Moon print ;)
bradley221 points5y ago
My friend and I were discussing this and where Braillle has grade two, this system wouldn't have anything like that from what I understand and that would make the books bigger. I was saying to him how this is an upgraded version of the huge blocky letters they used in France before Braille was a thing.
As for moon, I remember trying to read it,, it wasn't that bad. i can't remember any of the letters now.
KillerLag [OP]2 points5y ago
I agree with all those points. And even if the size is adjustable, that doesn't help if the size is adjusted beyond what someone can physically feel. If it is larger than a finger, it requires scanning the entire frame, which slows down reading.
That was another question I had, whether there was a refreshable system for computers. Theoretically possible, with a similar system to braille but with a lot more cells... but that just makes the cost extremely high.
OutWestTexas2 points5y ago
Nope. The simple 6 dot Braille system is much easier. I attribute low braille literacy to older-newly blind not learning it, not the difficulty of the system. I learned braille at age 40 in about a week.
KillerLag [OP]1 points5y ago
I agree with that. Especially nowadays with the phone reading a lot out, not as many people want to bother.
-shacklebolt-2 points5y ago
I [previously commented on an article about ELIA,] (https://www.reddit.com/r/Blind/comments/731suy/the_complicated_quest_to_redesign_braille/dnn7gde/) and I don't think my feelings are substantially changed by the presence of a kickstarter, although I haven't kept up with the project.
sw44001 points5y ago
Same. I could write exactly what I did 6 months ago, but you saved us both a little effort.
War-WarNeverChanges1 points5y ago
I feel like this is a money grab with no real future, mass produced, mass accepted product. I am a \(multi\-system\) Braille user, and have been since I was 4 years old, I would never seek to adopt this for everyday use. The video really bothers me with the bullshit statistics and no real facts following said statistics, and the claims of the ease in which their system is adopted sounds bullshit too. Are they going to use this shit for Braille Music, or Nemeth, as well? These symbols are bigger than an average braille cell, which is going to make reading a slower and longer process , and the production of ELIA books and materials more expensive to produce, and they aren't going to absorb that expense, we would. Too, the pricing for the pledges seems absolutely ridiculous. Why would anyone pay $1000 for a plaque, or I'm sorry, a "steel plate" with this nonsense on it? The other thing that really bothers me about this is that the kickstarter shows no implementation at all. Are these people going to create a slate and stylus type of deal for these symbols? Are they going to sell us a custom made printer for an exorbitant price, are they going to mod our notetakers for a price? Finally, what will they do for someone like me who not only reads UEB, but also Tenji and kantenji \(which is the Japanese Braille that uses 70\+ standard symbols, as well as an 8 dot cell system as well as a 6 dot cell system, not unlike UEB\), got to say, that's not very inclusive or universal.
KillerLag [OP]1 points5y ago
I'm not sure a slate and stylus would even be possible for this system. It looks like it would have to be all machine printed.
And because of the way the lines are done, I doubt they can modify notetakers to do that. It would likely have to be a custom printer.
War-WarNeverChanges1 points5y ago
It's not possible and they can't mod our notetakers, it takes a printer, and the printer will only be sold by him, and the code will only be SOLD by him, as he holds a patent on it. I have now had the distinct displeasure of speaking to the asshole that created this bullshit, and he's a sleaze. He tried to convince a desperate Mother of a Downs Syndrome/Blind child that Braille is a hurdle to communication and ELIA Frames are common medium. I wanted to punch him in the face.
KillerLag [OP]1 points5y ago
I understand why people want to invent something new, but they really need to also examine why the previous things worked well. Especially considering how long braille has been around. Just a lot more support for it.
I'm glad that I'm not alone with my feelings about this project. I totally agree with everything you said blindjo. I'm so tired of hearing about things like this that seem like they are directed at sighted people's ignorance, sympathy, and wallets, instead of actually making a valuable product. I really wonder if these kind of Kick Starter projects have any knowledge about the blind community what so ever.
Able_Me1 points5y ago
I would agree that many of these projects seem investor focused rather than customer focused. I myself have a project that I am developing, and it requires significant initial capital to the point that I need to either secure investors, run a pre-order campaign, or most likely do both. In your opinion, what would make the customer experience of participating in a pre-order better? If a campaign is successful enough that no investors need to be involved, I think the customer ends up getting more value in the long run.
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