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Full History - 2018 - 07 - 01 - ID#8vf5yv
12
Call to action: service animals on planes (self.Blind)
submitted by silverclaud22
I follow Zoe the Seeing Eye Dog on facebook. Her handler Kristin Fleschner is a wonderful disability rights advocate and has done a great job providing details, which you can find in the link below. Briefly the Department of Transportation is considering making a new rule concerning the definition of “service animal”. Any time a government agency proposes a new rule they open the floor to comments from anyone who may be affected by the rule, in this case service animal handlers and the public in general. There are 10 questions they would like feedback on before proposing a new rule. If you have time please follow the link and provide the Department of Transportation your feedback. If we don’t speak up nothing will change. Feel free to reach out to me if you have any questions, or if the link doesn’t work.

Also I’d love to hear your thoughts do you think service animals should include emotional support animals? What species or breeds should be included in the definition of service animal? Pit Bulls? Peacocks? Should service animal handlers have to provide some sort of proof that their animal is well behaved?

Thank you!

https://www.facebook.com/369430963215668/posts/1037260063099418/
Amonwilde 11 points 5y ago
I think, though maybe I could be convinced, that I am against giving emotional support animals the rights and exceptions that seeing eye, epilepsy, and other service animals have. The science on emotional support animals isn't really there, and it has the potential to weaken support for service animals that cannot be done without.
mobiledakeo 4 points 5y ago
Pretty sure this is technically already a thing in Canada where service dogs have more rights and permissions than ESAs though both are allowed on planes if you have the proper documentation
silverclaud22 [OP] 1 points 5y ago
What kind of certifications are required in Canada? One of the questions the Department of Transportation (D.O.T.)) is asking in their questionaire is whether a handler should provide an attestation, some sort of statement about their animal. I don’t think a statement or veterinary records would help the situation very much, as behavior seems to be the major issue. If there are not as many safety risks in Canada I’m very curious to know the protocols.
mobiledakeo 2 points 5y ago
Should probably mention that the province of Alberta has service dog identification cards that show the handler and the dog are recognized by the government and the dog has presumably been trained at a proper location

Canadian law says that emotional support animals are (obviously) not service dogs and ESAs generally have like no rights in Canada
silverclaud22 [OP] 1 points 5y ago
Also props to Canada for completely banning the chain slip collars also known as chocke chains. I have been interviewing guide dog schools and I found out that most issue a standard metal slip collar for corrections when needed. I asked if I could use a martingale collar, a flat collar that tightens but only as far as you have set it to go. I was told that all Canadian students receive a martingale collar instead of the standard metal slip collar because of the laws in place. Well done Canada! Just my opinion. I love dogs and I’m a bit of a softy when it comes to corrections. I’m more on the positive reward side of training, but i do believe there are times when a correction is warranted. This depends on the situation and the dog.
mobiledakeo 2 points 5y ago
For ESAs people need a doctors note of some sort that says they have a genuine need for an ESA that’s listed in the DSM-IV. The letter also needs to say they’re your doctor and needs information on the doctor’s license as well. If the flight is a domestic canadian flight with Canadians taking the dog then the practitioner needs to be situated in Canada. Also, according to Air Canada, only dogs count as emotional support animals

Service Animals need to be “certified and professionally trained” as well as harnessed and needs certification from a “professional service animal institution”.
silverclaud22 [OP] 1 points 5y ago
Thank you! That is interesting. So if I am understanding correctly ESAs in Canada do not require any documentation regarding their behavior or training, only a doctor’s note saying they are necessary for the handler. Is that right? Have there been any incidents about biting or other dangerous behaviors in Canada?
silverclaud22 [OP] 3 points 5y ago
Thank you for your honest response. I understand where you are coming from. Is it possible that your view on emotional support animals might stem from the bad examples set forth by people who pass off their pets as emotional support animals? I think that the fake emotional support animals are the ones that weaken support for true service animals. I think the biggest issue is the poor behavior exhibited by these animals.

It is my opinion that emotional support animals should be welcomed on planes, if they can exhibit excellent behavior. That being said, the animal’s behavior has more to do with the handler than the animal. I recently heard about a guide dog that lunged at, and bit another dog. Guide dogs and other service animals have excellent training, but if the handler doesn’t keep up on enforcing the rules even guide dog’s can be poorly behaved.

Thanks again for getting the conversation started!
Amonwilde 6 points 5y ago
I think it's har or impossible to evaluate animal behavior at scale. What we do have is risk and reward profiles. With some medical and service animals, the need is overwhelming and worth some risk of inconvenience or even threat. For emotional support animals, I'm not convinced that it's a worthy tradeoff. Unfortunately there are also many more people who insist on emotional support animals compared to the relatively rare guide or epilepsy dog, which strains the public's tolerance and willingness to accept risk in more worthy cases. If the science was there to support the idea of having an emotional support animal, I would be a lot more accepting of the idea. The few studies that have been done have shown little benefit, however, and it generally seems like a backdoor way for people who want the lifestyle choice of having their pets come everywhere with them.
silverclaud22 [OP] 1 points 5y ago
I understand where you are coming from and it makes logical sense to look at the science, however, in this case we are looking at the law. The Air Carriers Access Act ACAA is the law that the Department of Transportation DOT is interpretting with its regulations. The ACAA does not directly address the service animal issue. It simply states that air carriers cannot discriminate against passengers with disabilities, must provide said passengers with reasonable accommodations unless the accommodation poses a safety or health risk to others or poses an undue hardship on the air carrier. This has been interpreted to mean that people with disabilities who have a service animal should be allowed to fly with that animal.

If I apply your thoughts to this law it would mean that not all people with disabilities would be treated equally. Not necessarily a bad thing. The definition of disability in the ADA is extremely broad. There are something like 292 disabilities out there. It would be a reasonable accommodation for a person with a disability that requires a service animal, an animal that performs an assistive task for that person, to travel with said animal. However, it would not be reasonable to accommodate people with disabilities who have ESAs that do not perform a task but only provide emotional support. The risk to reward balancing might support this argument, but I’m not sure the science would. While the science can’t prove the benefit of having an ESA, I’m not sure if there have been any studies done showing the benefit of a service animal except through observation and surveys. If we are basing our arguments on science it seems to me that we are comparing apples to oranges. This is why I lean more towards allowing service animals and ESAs, as long as they are well behaved.

I think that addressing behavior is the way to get around the threat to safety of others that the air carriers are concerned with. I think it would get really tricky to legally argue that some threats to safety are more acceptable than others. Furthermore, there would be people with ESAs claiming discrimination based on the type of disability they have. Why should they be discriminated against if their ESA can be shown to be as safe as other service animals?

I do agree that it seems like a lot of people are using this as a backdoor way to be able to travel with their pets. This is unfortunate and selfish. In my opinion.

Great points though about the science and thank you for making me think through the legal type arguments. I’m sorry if I’m boring you with the legalities lol
Amonwilde 1 points 5y ago
I can't say I know much or anything about the specific legal situation. I will say that it seems you know more about the specifics, though I have read up on the medical science behind emotional support animals, as far as that exists.

It stands to reason that we accept threats to safety for benefits. Think about cars, which are incredibly, incredibly dangerous. We have, however, decided that the danger is worth it...or at least other people have, I'm not sure that I'm convinced. The threat posed by service dogs is low, in part because they are trained. So if your suggestion is to have emotional support dogs be intensively trained, I wouldn't be against that if we go on the assumption that we're stuck allowing people to have emotional support animals in the first place. Given that there is no demonstrated clinical benefit for them, however, I think it might be better to just not give the concept legal validation. Currently, in the US and to my knowledge, there is no legal status for emotional support animals, though there are many shady companies that will send you an official looking certificate which might intimidate someone into letting you bring your animal into a restaurant or other venue.

We do not need studies to know certain things. We do not need studies to know, for example, that eating is required for maintenance of health. If blind people can't get places, and then you give them a dog and they can get places, then the dog is doing its job. It's not a clinical outcome, it's a practical outcome. In medicine and psychology, however, there are many reasons that you need to look at outcomes, mainly because things like depression are multivariable phenomena that change over time regardless of treatment. Without a study, you cannot actually know if a particular treatment or intervention is actually helpful. There many be evidence that support animals are useful that comes out in the future, but for now we have no such evidence So I don't think we should enshrine emotional support animals in the law.

Thanks for digging in to this.
angelcake 5 points 5y ago
Unfortunately I think some sort of certification that can be checked by appropriate authorities is necessary. There are far too many people who would slap a vest (purchased on eBay) on Rover and expect to be able to take him on a plane - which obviously wouldn’t go very well if Rover wasn’t properly trained. A standardized identity card for properly trained emotional support animals should not be a big deal to implement.
silverclaud22 [OP] 3 points 5y ago
I have to say that I agree with you, to a certain extent. Some issues I see are who will be responsible for distributing the ID cards? The Department of Transportation? What kind of documentation will be required? Vet records and the sort won’t do much good. Should the ID cards only be provided to animals that came from a program like The Seeing Eye or Guiding Eyes, guide dog schools? That would raise other issues, like the fact that people are allowed legally to train their own pets to be service animals. I don’t think that right should be taken away. Ultimately, it seems to me that there should be some sort of good citizen test for the animals. Like a driving test to get your driver’s license. The animal should have to go through rooms set up with distractions and display that they are well behaved. This seems like it would be difficult to implement. Would every state need a location for testing? Every county? Will the Department of Transportation have to hire animal trainers who are more familiar with animal interactions? A lay person might be able to tell the animal got through the test alright, but a trained specialist might notice the animal passed but was very stressed. Lastly, should this be a periodic thing? Should recertification be required? And, how often? As I mentioned in another response a guide dog bit another dog when guiding his handler. If this dog came from a school and ID cards are just given to all guide dogs that come through proper training this would undermine the integrity of guide dog schools. When I don’t thinkt he school is the issue, but the handler’s interaction with the animal.

While writing this and asking these questions, it occurs to me that maybe a field agent would be best for certifying service and emotional support animals. The field agent could set up a visit with the individual with a service animal or emotional support animal and they could go to a busy location and walk through the distractions already there to demonstrate their animals ability to handle distractions. How often is still a question. Maybe every three or five years? Do you think that if the person knows theyu will be tested on a certain date they might prepare the animal to pass that date and then be less diligent about training between recertification periods? Like all the horrible drivers in south florida (this is where i am from) lol

Thank you for raising a good point and making me think through some of the questions it raised. I hope that you contribute your opinions to the Department of Transportation.
angelcake 1 points 5y ago
Probably a standardized training program certified by an appropriate government department would be enough. There’s already schools that teach this, they really just need to standardize the curriculum and agree upon a standard identity card. It’s unfortunate that something like this is even necessary because not only blind people benefit from service animals. Guide dogs for the blind are readily identifiable, emotional support and service dogs for people with other special needs should be as easily identifiable Because there’s always going to be some special snowflake who has to have her pocket dog with her no matter how badly trained it is and at least this way it would be possible to filter out the snowflakes - which hopefully will make things easier for people who have a genuine need.

Having one certification standard would make it easier to keep an eye on certified service animals, I don’t think you can put a specific timeline on “recertification”. Much of that depends on the owner and how well they maintain the training and the dog itself. That’s why guy dog puppies go through such rigourous training, to make sure that they’re suitable before they even start training as adults. I don’t see any reason why that program can’t be expanded to provide service dogs for people with other needs. They’ve been doing it for long enough and are very good at it.
silverclaud22 [OP] 1 points 5y ago
I think you may be onto something. Maybe the schools that provide service animals could be accredited and any animal graduating from an accredited school could receive proper credentials. There should be an authority responsible for making sure the schools are using the best practices in training.

That same authority should provide a field agent for anyone who has trained their own animal and who would like to receive the proper credentials. Like I said I don’t want to take away the right to train your own animal. There are people out there who are capable of doing so and do it beautifully. Also, why force someone to get a new animal if the one they have is capable and willing to do the work. Forcing a person to get a new dog from a school would be an unnecessary burden for that person, in time and expense. A person has to invest 3 and a half weeks at a school to learn to work with a new service animal, and the cost of food and vet visits for an additional animal might be too much for that person to manage. Not to mention travel issues if that person ever wanted to travel with their pet and service animal. I know someone who used to have to fly his retired service dog home then go back to get his working service dog and fly again.

I disagree with a standard curriculum. I think that results are more important than the content of the training. As long as the training is done humanely.

Maybe there ought to be some kind of program the handler has to complete. That way we can be confident that the handler will have some idea how to act in different situations. They will know how to advocate fro themselves and thus be less stressed when facing a difficult situation. Animals pick up on the stress and fear of their handler and the more we can do to put the handler at ease the more likely the animal will be at ease.

There are definitely schools that provide animals for the deaf and hard of hearing, and for seizures. I’m not sure about psychiatric service animals.

And yes we have to filter out the selfish snowflakes that ruin it for everyone else.
angelcake 2 points 5y ago
Administratively it would take a bit of time to set up but it’s certainly not an impossible project and it would benefit people who actually need trained service animals, no matter what service they are performing.
Drunken_Idaho 1 points 5y ago
I am not normally in favor of government regulations on things, but I have seen a lot of blind and low vision people with terribly behaved dogs that I feel sure would be problematic on planes.
I think, and I could be wrong, that many if not most guide dog cases could be considered successful.
Of the many blind people I know who have dogs, I can think of one guy whose dog is not plagued with serious behavior problems. Sad thing is he is sighted enough that I don't know why he even got a guide dog.
With as much public ignorance as exists about service dogs, i'd think it would be nice to have a license or ID card that shows your dog is legitimate. With the ADA saying that nobody can ask you about your dog, there has been a lot of abuse.
Personally, I question the large scale acceptance and use of guide dogs as a whole, though I do think other service dogs such as those used for detection of cancer or seizures are worthwhile.
silverclaud22 [OP] 1 points 5y ago
Thank you for sharing. Your point speaks to mine about the guide dog that bit another service animal in the face. The other service animal was a pit bull who did nothing but back away from the guide dog. The point was made that the guide dog will still be allowed on flights because it is a labrador while the pit bull is banned on Delta because of its breed. The guide dog likely came from a school while the pit bull was handler trained, mind you the handler had years of dog training experience. Goes to show it is the handler and not the dog or other animal that is the problem.

I do not have a guide dog, but I am considering getting one. Can you tell me which schools the poorly behaved guide dogs you know came from? I know I’m contradicting myself asking about the school that trained the dog, but just because the handler is more important doesn’t mean that the school and training is a null factor. Lol Also, where did the guy with the well behaved guide dog go to school?

I agree that there has been a lot of abuse, but I also see the value in guide dogs. I still have some usable vision and am considering a guide dog because I think I would be more comfortable in new experiences if I had a guide. I also think I’d feel more comfortable going out with my sighted friends if I had a guide dog. This way my friends don’t have the responsibility of checking in on me. I think I would feel more independent. The guide dog could also guide me around chairs and signs that I sometimes miss with the cane. And if I get separated from my friends I can tell the dog to find them, can’t ask the cane to find things. Lol Dogs can also guide towards door handles to help avoid feeling around awkwardly for the handle. And, lots of people like dogs and they are a good conversation starter, most people don’t ask you what your cane’s name is. Lol

That being said, I am a bit apprehensive primarily because of the travel issues. I do not look forward to being discriminated against because I am traveling with a service animal. Nor do I wish to encounter another service animal or ESA that is poorly behaved. I do not know how I would react if another dog bit my dog in the face, but it’s safe to say that no one, least of all me, wants to find out.

I also think it would be nice to have a license to show the legitimacy of my service animal if I choose to get one.
Drunken_Idaho 2 points 5y ago
Well to your point about feeling mohr comfortable with a dog as opposed to a cane, I found myself wishing for the cane once I'd used a dog for a while. While nobody will ask for your cane's name, it won't poop on the floor either.
This is purely my subjective opinion, so take it with a whole shaker of salt, but if you're not comfortable in your own skin, a dog won't help much. The dog will be of little to no help without a foundation of good mobility skills, and there's a lot you can do with a cane. While a dog can find a door, it can't tell you what side the handle's on, nor can it tell you how high up the knob is.
Don't get me wrong, the dog can be great if you have the disposition for it, but it isn't a magic cure for the insecurity that blindness can bring. I'm not saying this to be a jerk, just relaying my own experience.
Also, prepare to be left behind by uber drivers a lot. Uber wasn't a thing when I was a handler, but my friends who have dogs have a lot of trouble because Uber drivers will see the dog and bail on them.
I really hope you make the right decision for yourself in regards to getting a dog. If you are an animal person, and if you have patience, you may have a good experience. Many people seem to love their dogs and do very well. My opinion is just the rantings of one random internet stranger, so like I said, take it with a grain of salt.
I wish you the best of luck whatever you do.
silverclaud22 [OP] 1 points 5y ago
I love rantings of internet strangers!!! I wish that we didn’t constantly have to preface things with phrases like, this is just my subjective opinion, or, I’m not saying this to be a jerk. I understand that it is hard to relay tone in text and it is always safer to clarify, but i wish we could all give each other the benefit of the doubt more often.

You make good points. I will definitely keep thinking on my decision. I am an animal person and currently have two little dogs so poop doesn’t bother me much anymore. Lol There are definitely drawbacks to a dog as opposed to a cane. Such as the time investment and the expense, and the people that don’t like dogs or that are allergic to them. I am definitely aware of situations where people have been discriminated against because they had a dog with them.

You also make a good point about the insecurities that blindness can bring. I agree that ultimately the person with the disability has to be comfortable in their own skin, but I also think that a dog can help you get to that place. Kind of like a mix of a service animal and an emotional support animal. However, if the person doesn’t continue to put in the work to gain confidence and thinks the dog will be a magic cure all that won’t work well either.

Thank you for contributing to the conversation! You’re comments and opinions are well received and I will keep them in mind as I continue to think about my decision!
Fange_Strellow 1 points 5y ago
I think if an emotional support animal can be well trained enough, then it can be classified as a service animal. Otherwise it should be left at home, or confined to the place that pets are allowed. If it came to it though, I would prefer to deal with poorly trained animals then excessive government regulations. In my opinion, excess of regulations are far more of an obstacle.
silverclaud22 [OP] 1 points 5y ago
Can you give me more details? I am genuinely curious. I know a lot of people are against over regulation and I can definitely see why, however, I do not understand how regulation of ESAs might be over regulation.

My current thinking is that credentials should be given to animals that graduate from an accredited school. And anyone with a self trained service animal or ESA should have to pass a field test, in which a field agent (trained in animal behavior) comes out to the individual to observe the animals interactions in public settings. Based on that observation the agent grants or denies the credentials. This way we can help mitigate the safety risk these animals pose.

One issue with my solution is where will the money come from for such a program. The ESA and self trained service animal handlers? This could help fund the program and deter pet owners who don’t think their pets will pass.

What obstacles do you see based on this sort of regulation?
Fange_Strellow 1 points 5y ago
I don’t want to have to demonstrate my dog’s credentials everywhere I go just in efforts to weed out ESAs. That is restrictive to my ability to travel around unmolested, which is already difficult to achieve.
silverclaud22 [OP] 1 points 5y ago
That is understandable, however, if they had a licensing system in place it could be as easy as showing your certification with your ID when going through security. Granted that is if the government had one central body to certify SAs PSAs, and ESAs. Would that change your opinion at all?

Also, without some sort of certification how could we weed out the fake ESAs? Should ESAs simply be denied across the board?

To a point that someone else made on this thread, would you not feel better having a certification that no one could refute?

Genuinely interested in your opinion ☺️
silverclaud22 [OP] 1 points 5y ago
What do you all think about some sort of registry? Where service animals, psychiatric support animals and emotional support animals have to be registered and if there is poor behavior by one of these animals a complaint can be filed. After a certain number of complaints then the handler and the dog must pass some sort of certification to prove their animal is not a danger? I see some issues with this solution as well. Like people that don’t understand animal behavior complaining about behaviors that are not really dangerous. False accusations from people that just don’t like animals or don’t like the handler. Let me know your thoughts.
silverclaud22 [OP] 1 points 5y ago
https://www.facebook.com/369430963215668/posts/1037260063099418/
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