Blind and Visually Impaired Community
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Would apps made specifically for the blind help? (self.Blind)
submitted by sudden_blind_spot
I'm trying to get used to VoiceOver to prepare myself for the possibility of going blind, and I've noticed it is absolutely awfully sub-optimal. When using it on the Facebook App, for example, whenever you click a message, it says the name of the person out loud, then the time, then the message. Not only that, you must click that message to begin with, but how you're supposed to figure out where the message is if you can't see? Using a web browser seems to be a whole new level of frustrating. When entering a news website, for example, it seems like you must manually pass through tons of unrelated links, ads, menus and things like that before you can get to the actual article. That is crazy.
So, my question is, are you somehow able to adjust to those problems somehow, or is it as awful as it sounds? If so, I wonder if clients for common apps targeting blind people wouldn't help? For example, a Reddit client could be just a straightforward list of post titles, then a straightforward tree of comments, no distractions. Twitter could be made very blind-friendly too. Same for Facebook messenger. All those apps should allow you to navigate without hitting anything on the screen, just with simple gestures. Am I right in thinking such things actually help, or not really? Or perhaps they already exist and I'm not aware of?
So, my question is, are you somehow able to adjust to those problems somehow, or is it as awful as it sounds? If so, I wonder if clients for common apps targeting blind people wouldn't help? For example, a Reddit client could be just a straightforward list of post titles, then a straightforward tree of comments, no distractions. Twitter could be made very blind-friendly too. Same for Facebook messenger. All those apps should allow you to navigate without hitting anything on the screen, just with simple gestures. Am I right in thinking such things actually help, or not really? Or perhaps they already exist and I'm not aware of?
-shacklebolt- 8 points 5y ago
Voiceover isn't awful, you just don't entirely know how to use it yet. Have you looked at the numerous tutorials, like on https://www.applevis.com/ ?
Expecting to have mastered using a screen reader in a matter of days when you've never used any screen reader before is an unreasonable expectation, and maybe it could be related to your anxiety about sight loss. Maybe it's time to speak to your doctor about that and if you need support? We're not doctors or mental health professionals.
Expecting to have mastered using a screen reader in a matter of days when you've never used any screen reader before is an unreasonable expectation, and maybe it could be related to your anxiety about sight loss. Maybe it's time to speak to your doctor about that and if you need support? We're not doctors or mental health professionals.
sudden_blind_spot [OP] -1 points 5y ago
It was just a question for blind people. I'm not blind, and I hope I won't become blind. I do have curiosity, though. I had the initial impression that the way apps are built makes it harder than it should be to navigate through them using VoiceOver. I thus asked if apps designed for blind people would be helpful or if VoiceOver is enough. That's all. I was actually thinking of making some of those apps and even got started with the Facebook developer API. I, again, was just making a question trying to understand how blind people feel about those things, mostly because I wanted to help.
> We're not doctors or mental health professionals.
This thread is not about me and I don't understand why you're being mean.
> We're not doctors or mental health professionals.
This thread is not about me and I don't understand why you're being mean.
-shacklebolt- 7 points 5y ago
I'm not trying to be mean. If you want to learn how to use voiceover, start by learning how to use voiceover.
The reason facebook messenger, websites, etc seem hard to use now is because you have no experience non-visually accessing them. That's totally normal.
Many websites, for example, will have a skip to content link only available for screenreaders. (Most experienced screenreader users will use an ad blocker on every platform they possibly can, as well.) You also don't need to know where a message is on your screen to read it in messenger, you use gestures to move through content fields.
The reason facebook messenger, websites, etc seem hard to use now is because you have no experience non-visually accessing them. That's totally normal.
Many websites, for example, will have a skip to content link only available for screenreaders. (Most experienced screenreader users will use an ad blocker on every platform they possibly can, as well.) You also don't need to know where a message is on your screen to read it in messenger, you use gestures to move through content fields.
mobiledakeo 2 points 5y ago
Voiceover just reads out what you’re hovering over and then you have to confirm whether that’s what you wanted
It doesn’t matter if you can’t see where the buttons are on the screen because you’ll be able to find them and voiceover will let you know what you have selected
It doesn’t matter if you can’t see where the buttons are on the screen because you’ll be able to find them and voiceover will let you know what you have selected
vwlsmssng 6 points 5y ago
Apps made specifically for the blind would risk getting much lower support and less development than mainstream apps because the customer base is so much smaller.
One strategy is to set standards and regulations for the design of websites and apps so that the are navigable by a blind person skilled in the accessibility tools available. The idea being that a well made website / app should be accessible to blind person with access to VoiceOver / Jaws / NVDA etc., and the skills to use the software. The benefit is that blind people have immediate access to any updates or improvements to the website / app at the same time as the mainstream get them.
Now I'm just a bystander and parts of Voiceover (e.g. effective use of the rotor) are still unknown to me, but I can see that the functionality it gives to navigate by headings or links or words, for example, would be a lot of work to duplicate in every VI specific app, whereas making mainstream apps / websites accessible to blind people shouldn't be that great an overhead.
One strategy is to set standards and regulations for the design of websites and apps so that the are navigable by a blind person skilled in the accessibility tools available. The idea being that a well made website / app should be accessible to blind person with access to VoiceOver / Jaws / NVDA etc., and the skills to use the software. The benefit is that blind people have immediate access to any updates or improvements to the website / app at the same time as the mainstream get them.
Now I'm just a bystander and parts of Voiceover (e.g. effective use of the rotor) are still unknown to me, but I can see that the functionality it gives to navigate by headings or links or words, for example, would be a lot of work to duplicate in every VI specific app, whereas making mainstream apps / websites accessible to blind people shouldn't be that great an overhead.
bradley22 3 points 5y ago
If you go to settings/general/accessibility/voiceover and turn on voiceover, then double tap on voiceover practice you can practice the gestures needed. For example; when on a webpage there is a gesture called the roter gesture, imagine you're turning a dial on your phone, pinch your fingers together and turn that dial until you here, headings, then flick down with one finger. You will now be jumping through the headings of a page. I'd not use apps for the blind for social media, I'd expect the big companies to make their apps accessible. I've not used facebook in a long time, I deleted my account, but it was quite accessible the last time I checked. I use reddit on my laptop so can't really comment on that but bacon reader is a popular app that is accessible.
ElectromechanicalFoe 3 points 5y ago
Voiceover is a robust, popular screen reader, and experienced users can navigate extremely efficiently. Screen readers can navigate web content by elements such as headings, links, landmarks, and form controls.
Think about how you conceptually understand content on Facebook. You see the name of the person followed by their post. If you were reading your news feed out loud to someone, you might call out, "John said he was excited to go hiking with us this weekend." So VoiceOver might say "John, 1 hour ago, friends. Can't wait to go hiking with all my friends this weekend." Screen readers just announce this content as you drag your finger around the screen or flick your finger from item to item, so I don't understand why this seems inefficient to you.
In fact, the order of spoken information is intentional when it comes to screen reader design. Imagine for a moment that screen readers announced the content, followed by the person's name. As a user, you would be frustrated while navigating through your feed because you had to hear the message before you found out who actually posted it.
Think about how you conceptually understand content on Facebook. You see the name of the person followed by their post. If you were reading your news feed out loud to someone, you might call out, "John said he was excited to go hiking with us this weekend." So VoiceOver might say "John, 1 hour ago, friends. Can't wait to go hiking with all my friends this weekend." Screen readers just announce this content as you drag your finger around the screen or flick your finger from item to item, so I don't understand why this seems inefficient to you.
In fact, the order of spoken information is intentional when it comes to screen reader design. Imagine for a moment that screen readers announced the content, followed by the person's name. As a user, you would be frustrated while navigating through your feed because you had to hear the message before you found out who actually posted it.
sudden_blind_spot [OP] 1 points 5y ago
The reason I assumed that was inefficient is that, if you are on John's chat, then you already know the messages are from John! No need to read his name again for every message you receive! But, judging from your answer, that is a non-issue at all (surprisingly to me). That is actually enlightening and refreshing to hear, so, thanks for answering my post!
EndlessReverberation 2 points 5y ago
As has already been pointed out, you're just ignorant about the tools you're talking about. Of course, screen readers and interfaces could always be improved, but not by someone who does not understand the most basic aspects of how they work. Don't assume, learn, and then once you understand the current state of things you can think about making them better.
ENTJ351 1 points 4y ago
Voiceover works fine, thank you. It is a great tool. Apple has done a great job with it.
You can’t have no training at something and say oh, well, it’s efficient or inefficient, and then expected to be taken seriously. What if I walked in to a kitchen and said hey look I can’t use these tools therefore they are awful? It’s a little off putting ain’t it?.
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