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Blind and Visually Impaired Community

Full History - 2019 - 05 - 01 - ID#bjdceo
6
Does Anyone Here Use Linux? (self.Blind)
submitted by U5efull
If so, what software do you use for accessibility? I've now had some experience working and repairing accessible websites and am interested in contributing to some projects that might make the Linux community more accessible, especially in the realm of installing the system and getting set up.

In particular, I'd like your list of the packages you use to make things work, and what they add to your day to day use.

One thing I'm trying to find is a basic installer that works for visually impaired and blind folks,( one that includes a magnified screen and also an option for voice to text during install). I cannot find much about a voice to text terminal either, so if you know of one I'd love to look into it.

I'd like to be able to create some sort of installable accessibility package that would add the common programs people need and have them in commonly used places.

Any help you can provide I'd appreciate!
fastfinge 3 points 4y ago
I use Linux via SSH on servers. My biggest problem these days is with how fragile systemd/debian has made the boot process. One random drive fails that nothing on startup depends on? Emergency mode for you! One random process times out on startup for some reason? Emergency mode! No, of course you're not allowed to run SSH in emergency mode. No, of course you don't get sound in emergency mode, so even if you install a sound card in a server, you get no screen reader today. Your options are to have a sighted person help you recover whatever went wrong, assuming you have someone technical enough to read out command line stuff to you, or reinstall the entire system. This has a huge impact on my productivity. There is probably some way to solve this problem, but unlike a sane init system, I find systemd complicated and inexplicable, and I don't dare touch it.
U5efull [OP] 1 points 4y ago
I appreciate you outlining this problem. I'm not a super great programmer, but I'm actively researching ways to resolve these sort of problems. Currently I'm still digging into all the failed and dropped projects and trying to sort out which ones work with which distros. The goal being of course that we have a fully voiced terminal available in all instances of failure if at all possible.
fastfinge 2 points 4y ago
The primary issue there is that you need to convince distros that sound support is a thing they should require in there emergency systemd targets. And because of the way everything works, bringing up sound means bringing up a ton of other dependencies. But without sound, of course, the system can't talk.
bscross32 3 points 4y ago
There used to be accessible distros, Sonar, Vinux, then there is one called Accessible Coconut. All of these but the last one have I think beeen discontinued. Still, we can work with this. I use Arch on one of my machines. I have a console screen reader caleld Fenrir, but there is another one which is older called Speakup. This one is a kernel module or can be built into the kernel, both options are availble. It is from back in the days when you'd use hardware synthesizers. It has been made with a soft synth module though, and can work with several software voices. In the desktop space, we have Orca.
U5efull [OP] 1 points 4y ago
thanks for the info on the console readers, I'm looking at Orca for desktop as that seems to be the most used, however I also saw some issues with needing a different screen reader for PDFs.

I also use Arch,so I'll probably be building this into my Arch system to just get it running, but would prefer to make this a more general release with yum and deb packages as well.

Any info on how you do an Arch install without any sound would be helpful.

The goal here is to get a global package that can be used and modified by everyone. Unfortunately, I don't see a lot of distros mention accessibility even on their websites, and this is something I'd like to change.
bscross32 2 points 4y ago
a talking Arch installation ISO can be found at: https://talkingarch.info
U5efull [OP] 2 points 4y ago
The package list for this is incredibly useful

Thanks!
TheFake_VIP_yt 1 points 4y ago
Unfortunately, this is quite out-of-date in terms of using it practically these days, with loads of annoying GPG issues. I did find the holy grale of accessible linux distros, named Jenux, based on arch a few months ago, but I can't for the life of me find the website. I also recall the server I downloaded it from was called Nash Central, ran by a guy named Daniel Nash if I'm not mistaken. When I find it, I'll let you know. It's litterally the best arch based accessible distro I've found.
bscross32 2 points 4y ago
Too much shell magic in that one, and you might end up being left with a system which doesn't boot at the end. the $1 is supposed to not have the gpg issues and is supposed to be from this year, the .tk domain one is the one that hasn't been updated, from what I understand, the .info one spun off from that.
TheFake_VIP_yt 2 points 4y ago
TALK
TO
ME!

I'm probably the most enthusiastic blind linux user you'll find and I have loads of stuff to share that will help you, too much to fit into a single post. I run a $1 whos main purpose, among other things, is to talk about linux accessibility. I'll post replies to this post going over everything I know when I can, but feel free to get in contact with me in any way you can, (mikeybuchan@hotmail.co.uk).
U5efull [OP] 2 points 4y ago
I will be contacting you soon. I want to read up on what you've posted and view all your content. I'm so glad you are doing this.
TheFake_VIP_yt 1 points 4y ago
Arch linux is interesting and very fun. I'm relyeably informed that talking arch is now updated as long as you use the correct site (see other comments). Personally, I really like the work done over at nashcentral.duckdns.org:8100 (yes, I did find it). Daniel Nash has created a complete, if a little bloated IMO, arch linux installer, diagnostic disk, raspberry pi image creater and even android x86 installer called Jenux. There's a lot of really useful settings set automatically out of the box here, including using a much better synthesised voice who's engine escapes me, much better than espeak though. The graphical install options use orca, with quite a few tweaked settings and the CLI version uses the pretty new and really nice fenrir comsole screen reader that, while in its infantcy, is again IMO much better than anything speakup could ever offer. I really want to make a video about this soon, as its a great project that more people should use.
TheFake_VIP_yt 1 points 4y ago
I suppose I'll start with mainstream linux desktop accessibility. Gnome, unity (RIP), Mate, and XFCE are accessible. Personally, although I don't have much experience with unity, so this is not the full picture, I would say that Mate is probably the most accessible and it's where most of orca's bug-fixing time, to my knowledge, is being spent. XFCE is almost completely accessible to, with the exception of thunar and thus desktop icons. Other than that though, it's a great experience. Gnome is ... ironically fidley. I say ironic because gnome is the origin of the orca screen reader.

In terms of distributions, almost anything that ships with gnome (ubuntu, fedora, etc) has orca pre-installed. Older versions of ubuntu with unity are also fully accessible out of the box, including in installation, where pressing alt, super, s when the "Try/install" screen pops up will enable the screen reader. I'm pretty sure there's another combo for the magnifier, but I can't remember what it is. Ubuntu Mate is my go to ubuntu distro: everything's accessible out of the box, all the settings are set correctly and orca is pre-installed and available in the system and installation via the same shortcut. Xubuntu unfortunately doesn't have orca installed, nor ard the XFCE settingset correctly. If you (by which I mean a blind person) can blindly fumble a roundin the terminal, you can get orca installed though and just about enable XFCE's built-in assistive technology support, making it completely accessible.

I wrote an article about this on my site, blindcomputing.org, a while ago, that covers a few other things: https://blindcomputing.org/article/state-of-linux-accessibility.php
devinprater 2 points 4y ago
I've used Fedora Arch, Ubuntu, and Debian. Console is okay, besides RTV being very "chatty" with their ascii graphics, because of course text apps still have to be visual for the visually unimpaired. That's really how Linux fails, because no sighted developer would intensionally make a package accessible, unless its a pure command line app, but people would rather use text interfaces, and all of those besides Emacs, and only that because of Emacspeak, are hard to deal with. Graphical interfaces don't help much, either, because apps have to be written in GTK and have buttons labeled with text. Just see the Gnome Control Center for a great look at how epically accessibility fails on the "free" computing environment. So for us, Linux isn't freeing at all, it puts us at the mercy of developers who, a lot of them, won't do any more than is necessary, and nothing that they don't want to do. If you want it, you build it, and that mantra has spilled into the blind Linux users as well, so of course the few sighted developers at linux-a11y.org must do most of the work for us. Yes, there are about 2 or 3 blind developers but they're working on arguably small things, rather than strengthening the accessibility backbone of Linux, the packages that show TUI apps, and the Accessibility Toolkit interface to GTK and QT.

Really, its much easier for me to have a Mac, where I have Bash, Emacs, Youtube-DL, Fanficfare, Pandoc, and other nice CLI apps, with the absolute convenience of an actually accessible, easy-to-use system, where productivity won't be hindered by an inaccessible settings manager, (Gnome), or reliance on just Firefox as a browser, and ChromeVox, (unsupported), on Chrome. All other apps on Linux I can find great analogs on the Mac, and if not, I have a Windows laptop too.

So, for me, Linux just isn't worth it for people with disabilities, especially total blindness, which is probably the hardest to program for, and get developers onboard. ! ,
ginsenshi 2 points 4y ago
There is one accessible Lenix distro name vinux
That’s the only thing I know about a Accessible version of Linux, since I’m a Mac iOS and iPhone user
KillerLag 2 points 4y ago
I've been told that Vinux is not longer updated, unfortunately.
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