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Blind and Visually Impaired Community

Full History - 2019 - 07 - 20 - ID#cfn90t
15
Help me help my VI son with technology (self.Blind)
submitted by Littlemissmee
Warning: lengthy post, please take the time to read. I greatly appreciate it.

I have a child that is VI, LCA, blind from birth. He reads braille and is new to technology. We are quickly approaching middle school, school starts in about 2 weeks.

He is starting with a new school system. The last VI teacher was extremely braille heavy, light on technology. He did however begin to use a combination of iPad, RBD, and Google drive/classroom to complete assignments. He is in NO way proficient to say the least. However, we are living in a technology filled world and this year all of his work and texts will be digital.

I need advice on what types of technology I should purchase for him. Apple vs android, what type/brand of RBD? What does he need I don't know about? Before you ask, yes the school system will provide these things for him while on thier campus, but not to go home with him. I would prefer him be able to take his own things to school and bring them home to ease homework completion. He has at minimum a hour + bus ride each way to go to the school that offers a VI and O&M program 😒 I want him to be able to make the best of a bad situation and have access to homework tools while on the bus.

Thank you!!
CanonofGlass 9 points 4y ago
If he's inexperienced with technology, I'd say Apple over Android. Apple products are more commonly used in the BVI community and there are a lot more accessibility oriented apps available for the platform. Apple devices are just a lot more user friendly in a lot of regards and the screeneader (VoiceOver) is really reliable if a little clunky at times.

I'm not a braille user anymore, but when I was, I had a Brailliant BI 40 and I really liked it. It's probably outdated at this point, but it's portable, lightweight, and the display size is nice. If there's something newer available, I'd buy that instead, but I wouldn't get something with less than 32 cells.
Littlemissmee [OP] 2 points 4y ago
Thank you. My household is completely android so Apple is foreign territory for myself and husband personally, thus why I have no idea what is best for him. I am wondering is a rbd is the way to go? He currently is not familiar with a keyboard (too inpatient so far to sit and learn it, he allows himself to become frustrated easily), why I was thinking rbd to begin with as he is familiar and uses that wonderfully. Thanj you for the suggestion, I am going to look that one up.
CanonofGlass 4 points 4y ago
I use Android myself, but the accessibility overall isn't as reliable and there isn't a whole lot of support out there for it. I remember assistive tech people telling me that I should switch to Apple, but I had absolutely no interest in it. But I'm highly interested in technology and enjoy tinkering, so I know it's not for everyone.

I didn't use my RBD very often and found it sort of unnecessary because I'd already learned the layout of an actual keyboard and was already using a laptop with software that I was comfortable with.
bscross32 1 points 4y ago
Android is getting better every day, but yeah I'd say apple, especially if frustration is a factor.

​

I've literally had the entire infrastructure of the OS enter a cascading failure that basically turned into an infinite crash loop where the services and so forth would try to relaunch themselves and then die again immediately.

​

OK, tbf, that was probably my own fault because I was using a modified kernel on a different ROM and stuff.
bscross32 1 points 4y ago
That's what I have. I like it a lot, but jesus Humanware, did you have to drop the ball on the fucking space bar?

​

I mean OK, Vi user here not totally blind, it looks fucking sexy in that sort of brushed aluminum blue, the keyboard is glorious to type on and is fairly silent, until you reach down with your thumb and... 😠🤢

​

What the ever loving...? Two bars, and they're clicky and nasty. What did you do Humanware, what did you do? Why did you give such a beautiful display this one fatal flaw?

​

To be fair though, mine is at least one gen out of date though. I don't know how the newest ones are.
Hellsacomin94 6 points 4y ago
Hi! I think you should have a conversation with your school prior to purchasing anything big. It’s going to be easier to learn one system for both home and school rather than switch between two.

That said, generally Apple products are widely considered to be more accessible than Microsoft or Android. Unfortunately MS and Android products are typically used at work and educational environments because they are cheaper up front.

I’d figure out which one the school uses, get similar equipment at home, then just start digging in to YouTube videos on accessibility on that system. Hadley Institute for the Blind has great videos as well as The Blind Life and Live Accessible. Good luck, check back in if you have issues.

PS I think your son’s teacher had it right on learning Braille first. Braille is tough, and if he’d learned tech first it would have been difficult to be motivated to learn Braille.
Littlemissmee [OP] 2 points 4y ago
Thank you so much, I will let you know if I think of anything else.
szaez 4 points 4y ago
Full disclaimer, I'm speaking as a sighted person, but I work in this field so I'm speaking more from an "industry perspective".

For mobile devices, I would recommend an iPhone. A few months ago, colleagues were excited about how Android finally had support for headings 🙄, which seems like such a no-brainer capability that being happy about it reaches fandom levels. VoiceOver on the iPhone and the desktop are fairly similar so that will get him used to that support. If he wants to communicate in real time over distance, he'll need to learn that.

Anecdotally, once I gave my best friend (who was blind) my Samsung, and he was totally disgusted. He was in his late 20s, so providing an Android to your kid will likely be a point of bullying down the road. With all the frustrations I have with my best friend as an Autistic 40+ year old, bullying is the last thing I'd want to deal with.

On the other hand, I recommend a Windows laptop for day to day tasks. Knowing how to use the built in Narrator (Microsoft's answer to VoiceOver) may get him a job there down the road (😆), but both NVDA & JAWS are used on Windows machines.

Those of us in the industry rely on these 3 screen readers to test against. I would focus on industry trends, because complaining that a company makes something that doesn't work in Orca is likely not something any court will ever look at.

Hope this helps.
Fatlazyceliac 2 points 4y ago
As an assistive tech related professional, I strongly agree with this.
5hedoesntevengohere8 4 points 4y ago
I think your last Vision teacher was ind of dumb to be so brail heavy to the detriment of technology usage.

However, I will say that most successful blind people are fluent brail readers.
Littlemissmee [OP] 3 points 4y ago
She was heavily braille forward due to his lack of interest in technology, he would become very frustrated easily and shut down learning. I do believe even though braille is a "thing if the past" it is extremely important to a VI child. It teaches more than just the "language" it is a skill, it teaches dexterity, a thought process, sensory input, just to name a few things. It was very grounding for him to say the least. I know he is stepping into the tech game a little late, however, he is very adaptive and intelligent, I am sure we will have him up to speed quickly with persistence.
vapidvision 3 points 4y ago
Visually impaired special educator here, PLEASE feel free to PM me as I have too much info to post here, but a lot is dependant on info you might not want to publish

​

I would definitely recommend Apple products. While there are Android derivations and third-party apps that make them accessible, Apple products have very helpful system preferences for the visually impaired and the blind. I am assuming that your son has no sight, or with his condition, you want him to be prepared for a world with no sight?

​

Definitely get connected with Talking Books and Braille Services/BARD though the National Library Services and your local Commision for the Blind. The way the IDEA is set up in most state's turns to the Commissions for services. You can even get a lot of the technology you'd need (like an iPad Pro) for free from Telecommunication Disability Accessibility Program, through a similar library program.

​

So many specific tools are popping into my mind.... haha
bscross32 2 points 4y ago
BARD for sure, but also Bookshare since Bard doesn't have a lot of text books and Bookshare might have what he needs. I mean they might not have what his school curriculum calls for, but for instance, I was able to find books in programming in various languages and other educational stuff.
[deleted] 1 points 4y ago
[removed]
Littlemissmee [OP] 1 points 4y ago
Just send you a pm, Ty!
annibear 2 points 4y ago
First question: the school won't let anything go home with him? What about homework? I'm not a lawyer, but my school let me bring home everything and I believe it's legally required to do so for homework (doesn't seem like it's LRE or equal opportunity). Hell, my college let me bring their equipment overseas multiple times (not very happily, but I digress). May be worth checking in with the NFB/ACB or going over the head of whoever is making that decision. Switching between RBDs isn't going to be impossible, but it will be inconvenient.

I've used an iPhone for years and find it pretty easy and quick to connect with a RBD. Re: RBD, I've used both Focus 40 and 80s and prefer them. May not want an 80 at this age. Have you thought about a Braille Note Touch or Braille Sense Polaris at all? Both are notetakers so much more expensive, but much more powerful.
Littlemissmee [OP] 1 points 4y ago
To answer your question, no as of yet, he has not been allowed to being home anything from school. He has a classic brailler at home and would use that to manually braille all of his homework. It takes a long time and is frustrating for all parties involved.

I do not have a lot of reference to go by. The majority of the vi kids we are involved with outside of school have other disabilities as well and limited if any resources within the school system.

Are you able to use your rbd with your actual iPhone? I would assume you would need something with a bit more computing power such as a tablet. Asking my son, he says this isn't possible in his experience, let me ask you. Would there be a case in which you would use a rbd with a laptop? Of is this just somthing that you would use in conjunction to a tablet?
annibear 1 points 4y ago
Jesus. That's horrible. Have you done any research on the legality of it? It doesn't seem like that should be legal and iirc I think I've read something to the same effect in the Braille Monitor. Have you considered reaching out to the National Organization of Parents of Blind Children or the ACB equivalent? The parents there may be able to give you a lot of help.

Yeah, I can easily use my RBD (or my notetaker) with my iPhone. Settings -> General -> VoiceOver -> Braille. Takes a few minutes to set up at first but then connects within a few seconds when Bluetooth and VoiceOver are both on. I've used my RBD with a laptop when I used to take notes in class. I used to just connect it to MS Word or Pages, but then I started using Google docs. I also used it a lot with my iPhone for poetry--I wrote my college thesis on 19th century British poetry, and I found it much easier to search for specific lines with my Braille display than with my huge clunky Braille copies of it.
Littlemissmee [OP] 1 points 4y ago
I have not contacted anyone as of yet. He is going to a different school system with more resources this upcoming year. I will however keep your suggestions in mind if I don't see changes with the change in schools.

I am hoping this will be the case. Trying to lug around braille textbooks is such a pain, and I worry about his back carrying such a heavy pack.
CloudyBeep 1 points 4y ago
All RBDs can be used with other devices like iPhones, iPads and PCs.
bradley22 2 points 4y ago
I’d recommend an Iphone and a windows machine.

I’d recommend NVDA, www.nvaccess.org it’s free and works for most applications, the school might make him learn JAWS though, so I’d talk to the disability department if the school has one.

JAWS used to be quite expensive but if you’re in the US, you can pay monthly for it, although i’m not sure if that’s an on going thing or if you pay a certain price and that’s it.
Littlemissmee [OP] 1 points 4y ago
Thank you, I was actually looking into Jaws. I wwas hoping to start him off with something free and move up from there.
CloudyBeep 2 points 4y ago
US students get JAWS at a considbable discount; please look into it as it is the most popular and most feature-rich screen reader. It is definitely the best with Microsoft Word, which he will need to get familiar with as it isn't possible to do long assignments on just an iPad.
ginsenshi 1 points 4y ago
Serotek has a free license within the US for K through 12 for their system access screen reader. At least the last time I looked at their site http://www.serotek.com/systemaccess
Littlemissmee [OP] 1 points 4y ago
Awesome I will check this out. Thank you
ginsenshi 1 points 4y ago
Here’s a free version, only works when connected to the Internet
It’s not meant as a menu screen neuter even though it’s the same program
https://www.satogo.com/en/
bradley22 1 points 4y ago
Remember, just because it’s free doesn’t mean it’s bad.

I used jaws for 18 or so years but didn’t pay for it because of my school and a charity.

I now use nvda full time and am very happy with it.

Talk to the school and see what they can do, remember, he’ll need to learn keyboard shortcuts so if the school can help him with that, that would be the best option if they have someone who knows what they’re talking about.
Littlemissmee [OP] 1 points 4y ago
Ahh I see, thank you got this information. I have purchased braille stickers for a keyboard at home to teach him where the letters are. Unfortunately, keyboarding was a subject he missed during elementary school.
bradley22 1 points 4y ago
Personally I’d not recommend braille stickers as they might fall off the keyboard and that’s just not how I learnt, but if it works for him, great!

There’s a program that will help him touch type and it’s free, I’d highly recommend he tries it. The link is http://www.rockywaters.co.uk/softwarePage.php
solar-cabin 2 points 4y ago
I would find out what the school uses and try to match that.
U5efull 2 points 4y ago
check out blind computing. The site is still in beta but has a lot of helpful tips.

https://beta.blindcomputing.org/
Littlemissmee [OP] 1 points 4y ago
Ty, I am going to look into this website.
U5efull 1 points 4y ago
the site is still being built out, there isn't much up atm. however, bookmark it, it will be updated soon
Littlemissmee [OP] 1 points 4y ago
I will!
bscross32 2 points 4y ago
Braille is going out, that's why tech is so important right now. Not to diminish Braille in any way though, it still is important, and I claim that you are illiterate if you are blind and do not know Braille. My argument is that listening to something is generally a passive process, while reading is active. Braille helps you to learn spelling and grammar, which your son will need later in life. Speech is great, but homophones are an issue and when you don't know because it isn't telling you, you might tend to develop some very bad spelling habits that will be hard to unlearn. I've seen it from other blind people.

​

For tech, I guess it would depend. I don't know what an RBD is, but iPhone and iPad wouldn't go amiss. iOS versus Android is very subjective though. I can use either one. I have fun with android because I can hack it, customize it to the Nth degree and so forth, but I like the iOS experience for just getting things done. It's always going to work the same, and once you get used to it, the user experience tends to transfer across most apps.

​

If you can, maybe go for the iPad pro because it has the keyboard and so forth, but you can use any bluetooth keyboard though, and maybe you could rig up a stand. I know for me, I'd want one if I was trying to do homework on the thing. I prefer PC over mobile for things like that, but mobile is of course, a good backup.

​

As for learning them, I never really had trouble. I didn't have a phone for nearly 8 years because I couldn't afford one. The last phone I had was a slide phone and was just on the cusp of what you might call a smart phone. I went from that to an iPhone 7 without issue. It took me like 15 minutes to get the fundamentals. Then my proficiency just rose from there with my use of it. Before that, I had a few tablets and an iPod touch 4th gen. I never had anyone teach me how to use touch screen devices, so it is always a little confusing to me when I'm seeing these training resources and so forth. I'm not casting aspersions on anyone who uses those, I just never needed them myself. Once you turn on VoiceOver on for the first time, you get a tutorial, work through it the first time, it will not come back, but you can revisit in the VoiceOver settings if you need to. Also when you go there, you have a practice area at the top. Android is similar in that it gives you a tutorial when you turn TalkBack on, or god help you, voice assistant on a samsung device //cringe//.

​

I'm convinced that any impediment that might exist to someone learning technology is psychological unless they have a learning disability. What you need is a desire to explore the thing, but they lack that, not because they don't want to, but because they're scared of breaking it. I've seen this over and over with family and some other people I've helped with various tech related things. It's that fear that holds them back. But the fear is groundless because just turn on the automatic backup, then if you do somehow manage to mess it up, restore from that. It's very unlikely that'll even happen though. For PCs, people should back up their data anyway, the OS can easily be reinstalled, but that's an extreme measure and will not need to be taken in most cases.
szaez 3 points 4y ago
Even if braille _was_ "going out", who cares? My brother taught his kids sign language when they were babies and stopped the minute they could speak. Now they can't sign for shit.

If their child was taught braille, that's something they should foster and embrace if only to have an alternative form of communication. It still exists so knowing more ways to communicate with others is particularly vital in my opinion, despite how tech knowledge is also so important.
bscross32 3 points 4y ago
I think ya missed where I said braille is literacy. I'm not knocking it. I'm just stating facts about it becoming less and less prevalent. Now, the way forward is through technology, as OP observed.
szaez 1 points 4y ago
Perhaps. But I was referring to your first line:

> Braille is going out, that's why tech is so important right now. Not to diminish Braille in any way though, it still is…

Tech is crucial, but I maintain culture is vital. That's all I meant. We're good. Sorry if I came across admonishingly.
Littlemissmee [OP] 1 points 4y ago
The rbd is a refreshable braille display, this is what he has been/started using is school so far to complete his school work. He had the ability to compete his assignments and email them to his teacher. It gives him a real chance to be independent.

My husband builds computers and will build him one that is perfect for his needs once the time arises. Imo I think he should start small, such as tablet, learn the voice over, become confident, before we throw a program such as Jaws into the mix.
bscross32 1 points 4y ago
Oh, I feel like an idiot, I have one, though I've never seen it referred to in that way.
Littlemissmee [OP] 1 points 4y ago
Haha no worries, I only know calling it by RBD, as this is how his VI teacher introduced it to me. I even had to ask him, hey so what is that.

Do you find yours handy?
CloudyBeep 2 points 4y ago
I love using refreshable braille. I prefer reading books in braille over audio, and having an RBD means that I don't have to carry large hardcopy braille books. The RBD is also useful for proofreading one's work to check that the work is free of errors because screen readers don't catch all of them. This is why I believe that braille and technology go hand-in-hand—you should learn both to be as successful as possible.
ginsenshi 1 points 4y ago
I use a IPad 9.7 with a Logitech rugged combo with smart keyboard .

The case and keyboard were originally designed for the education market, but I found a website selling it to the general public.



You can find it at

https://m.cdw.com/product/Logitech-Rugged-Combo-keyboard-and-folio-case/4944662

I got it for Christmas last year and love it.
bscross32 1 points 4y ago
I don't use it a lot. The bluetooth on it is sketchy even after I updated the firmware on it. It sort of has spikes where it stutters hard then comes back. Plugged in though, it's nice. I really only use it on Linux systems where I end up with no speech somehow and normal ways of restoring it aren't working, like on Arch, where by some confluence of events, the initramfs image would be problematic after every system update and I'd be left with the backup in a fallback kernel. I needed braille then because no sound drivers.

On the plus side, I bought it myself so it is mine to sell should I ever just not be using it at all.
oncenightvaler 1 points 4y ago
Hey I am in a very similar situation to your son, with about 15 years older than him so I feel I should answer your question.

I think what you have so far is a great start, however here are some things you definitely need to look into. If your son wants to edit his own work he will need either a Braille Display screen like the model I have the Alva bc640, or he will need a Braille printer, an Embosser like the one I have from Index Braille.

Apple is superior to windows in that they have the screen reading software built in.
Littlemissmee [OP] 1 points 4y ago
Thank you so much, I am going to look into these options!
Laser_Lens_4 1 points 4y ago
I've been working my way through various OS's and here's what I can tell you.

Unless he has any particularly heavy compute needs you should go mobile. This means tablets, phone's, and maybe laptops.
He's already using an iPad at school so that's a good start and you should probably stick to that at home. If he uses Braille then definitely go Apple. Android has decent accessibility (I can personally attest to that as I use a Galaxy S9 with Google TalkBack daily) but Android has garbage Braille support. iOS is also better optimized for people with no vision whereas with Android it's really quite beneficial to have at least a little bit of sight. Not that he can't use it. Might work out for a phone for non-productivity tasks but that's about it. Voiceover is fairly easy to learn and it even gives you an area in the settings to practice commands.

For a classical OS with a desktop screen reader it's a bit harder. JAWS, NVDA, and Voiceover on Mac are all quite competent. VOiceover is probably the easiest to learn but you'll have to pay the Apple tax. In any case most apps on Mac OS are available on iOS so... yeah, iPad.

Thinking into the future it would be a good idea for him to learn a screen reader on Windows. JAWS on particular will come in handy later in life for work since that's what employers will buy. If you absolutely need a desktop OS then you can cheaply set up a Windows machine with NVDA, the only truly free screen reader. Yeah, Oiceover and TalkBack are included but you pay quite the price for the hardware those run on. It's worth mentioning that he will need to be intimately familiar with the layout of a QWERTY keyboard and be an effective touch typist to use desktop screen readers, oh and a numpad is most helpful especially for jaws. Based on what you've said it doesn't sound like he's quite ready yet. Maybe in high school. That'll be up to you and him to figure out. If you have the luxury, the ideal would be to learn multiple screen readers. Being able to fluently switch from OS to OS--desktop or mobile--is a godsend. Definitely teach him how to touch type right now. THat'll come in handy whether he uses a tablet or a laptop or what have you and will serve as the foundation for learning desktop screen readers. Hope this helps.
CloudyBeep 1 points 4y ago
I'm assuming RBD stands for "refreshable braille display". I've never seen that acronym before.

Personally, I don't think it's a good idea to do homework while commuting to and from school. Listening to the synthetic speech of an iPad whilst also having to cope with the noise of other people talking would be quite challenging for someone new to technology. And reading from a braille display whilst on a bus requires an awkward hand position, the fingers are moved around when the bus moves, and there is a risk of dropping it and destroying the braille cells if the bus goes around a sharp corner or stops suddenly.

In terms of a braille display to recommend, I think it would be ideal for him to try them so he can see whether he likes the keyboard and the feel of the braille, but if this isn't possible, you should probably look into whatever you as parents or his teachth are willing to teach him. Commonly-used braille displays include the Focus 40 Blue, Brailliant and QBraille XL. If you do buy a braille display, make sure to purchase one with either 32 or 40 cells—ones with shorter lines negatively affect reading speed and proficiency.

Also, please don't discount hardcopy braille as it is still useful for math and other similar subjects.
Littlemissmee [OP] 2 points 4y ago
Yes that is what I mean by RBD this is what his teacher calls it. I didn't think about it being hard on the bus. I am honestly pulling at strings here. I am working to get him in a school closer but also with the services he needs. Where we stand today he will need to commute almost 3 hours a day round trip and then have to do homework and attempt to also continue with his extracurricular activities. I was hoping to save him time and utilize that time in the bus.

Thank you for the display suggestions, I am going to look into these.

I absolutely do not am discredit hardcopy braille at all! I encourage it. He reads books in braille on a regular bases, in fact he read every book his last VI department had available to him.
bscross32 1 points 4y ago
Braille displays are kind of fragile though, I mean one drop of more than like 2 inches might end up messing cells up such that you need to send the thing in. Then they need cleaned semi-regularly, or they get a bit wonky. At least the cleaning can be done from home.

​

Yeah 3hrs/day is a bit rough, and if he can't do his homework on the bus, that's gonna put a real damper on his home life. I remember that when I was in middle school. I was in VI only classes K-5, and ended up repeating 5th grade and did a half and half year where I was mainstreamed out for part and in VI classes for part, then mainstreamed full term 6-12. It did me a world of good to be mainstreamed out, but it was hard at times. I mean it really sucked, because I didn't really know enough at that time to get things in audio formats and not to try to do everything visually, so I was on homework like 4 or so hours every night. You put dinner in the middle of that and I was exhausted by the time I was finished.

​

That would be one area that I would be trying to balance for him. making sure homework time isn't over the bounds of what it ought to be. Yes, it is going to take him longer to do things, at least at first. It does to all of us. Sometimes we find ways of even doing things faster, but not always. But, balance is key for feeling like an actual person instead of someone who essentially works all the time. 8hrs of school + 4hrs of homework + any household chores, that's over a full day's work and that's rough for a kid. It was for me.

​

Sorry if that came out a bit too preachy, I just remember that time in my life sucking a lot because I had no me time through the week. My dad did go to bat for me and tell them look, this is ridiculous, my son's hitting the books from the time he comes home to the time he goes to bed, and that worked some things out. I wasn't supposed to overhear that little convo, but god, I could have fucking cried with relief.
Littlemissmee [OP] 1 points 4y ago
Your speaking to my heart here, not preachy at all! This was his life all of 5th grade. Up until this point he has been the only VI student at his school, always mainstream. I flat out refused from day one to have it any other way. The teachers never had a VI student. They were all doing what I believe was thier best, however, they just didn't understand. He came home from school, practice piano, do homework, eat, and go to bed. That's no life for a child.

This upcoming school year is new and a mystery we won't know about until it begins. I'm sure that there will be challenges that we will have to face. I am hoping with the expanded school resources this next year, these things will be better.
bscross32 1 points 4y ago
It sounds like you guys are on top of things, and while there will be some issues, well, that's just the way of things when you're blind. He'll do fine.
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