Blind and Visually Impaired Community
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Question about nonvisual feedback (self.Blind)
submitted by tabletopbellyflop
Hello all.
I'm a professional ethical hacker with a specific interest in hardware hacking and modification. I do a lot of personal projects to hopefully help people, but mostly out of personal interest and fun.
A good friend and co worker of mine is, amongst other things, slowly going blind due to a genetic issue. His tinkering with assistive hardware inspired me to see if i can build some proof of concept hardware.
The idea is to take information about surroundings and supply this information to an individual in a non-visual way.
I have been thinking about feedback by audio, pressure, vibration, temperature and more. However, as i'm not blind myself, i have a hard time realising what would work.
Say, for example, i have a device that a blind person can wear that measures the location of an object relative to that device. How would i supply the feedback?
Perhaps some people in this reddit community can give me some advise on feedback based on practical experience?
Thank you in advance.
I'm a professional ethical hacker with a specific interest in hardware hacking and modification. I do a lot of personal projects to hopefully help people, but mostly out of personal interest and fun.
A good friend and co worker of mine is, amongst other things, slowly going blind due to a genetic issue. His tinkering with assistive hardware inspired me to see if i can build some proof of concept hardware.
The idea is to take information about surroundings and supply this information to an individual in a non-visual way.
I have been thinking about feedback by audio, pressure, vibration, temperature and more. However, as i'm not blind myself, i have a hard time realising what would work.
Say, for example, i have a device that a blind person can wear that measures the location of an object relative to that device. How would i supply the feedback?
Perhaps some people in this reddit community can give me some advise on feedback based on practical experience?
Thank you in advance.
jrs12 8 points 3y ago
This particular concept is pretty over done. Everyone wants to invent something that helps a blind person 'see' the world. The truth is, nothing is as good as the human brain for sorting through relevant and irrelevant information. There have been lots of products that vibrate or give off a sound when an object is near, but objects are ALWAYS near. The Sunu band is kind of cool, but generally speaking, nothing has been done with this technology that has any chance of being ground breaking and lots of people have tried.
tabletopbellyflop [OP] -2 points 3y ago
I would like to try anyway. There are lots of invisible things i myself would like to experience without blocking vision.
I feel audio feedback might become annoying very fast for the wearer and surroundings. Vibration feedback might be a good alternative, but it might be limited in the amount of information transferred. For example, tone height variations versus kinetic vibration variations.
Do you happen to know of any preference?
I feel audio feedback might become annoying very fast for the wearer and surroundings. Vibration feedback might be a good alternative, but it might be limited in the amount of information transferred. For example, tone height variations versus kinetic vibration variations.
Do you happen to know of any preference?
quanin 3 points 3y ago
Hi. Actual blind person here. u/jrs12 has the correct answer. I mean, it's awesome you want to help and all, but this is not how you do it.
urethanerush 1 points 3y ago
Partially mirroring what u/jrs12 says, in terms of hardware devices, it's easy for any device to lose out to other behaviours or assistive tech (e.g. folding canes) that blind individuals already adopt.
For instance, for your specific hardware idea, from the outset something like the 'tile key finder' seems ideal, you can attach acoustic tiles on your important objects and then use your phone to make them ring and hence make them easy to track and find. But I've not yet heard of a blind user of these, in my interviews this kind of technology is viewed really holistically - e.g. knowing of the tech, the process of getting the device, spending money on it, maintaining it / charging it, learning to use a new app, remembering to use it, and actually using it has to be seen as a better experience than the alternative (e.g. just remembering where you left objects). Also in the home, 'finding' objects regularly isn't usually the main issue, and you can always lose objects you forgot to 'tile.' Your friend will likely learn to adopt behaviours and strategies that negate the need for this kind of assistive technology in the first place.
In my own line of work (sensory substitution) the devices that gain the most enthusiasm tend to be 'digital canes' like the sunu band, enactive torch or EyeCane, which are simple to use and can paint out the 3D space around them giving the walls a real presence and it can be an enjoyable experience. Anything more complicated than that tend to drop off a cliff adoption wise, still there are lots of potential options between the digital cane and full 'vision-into-sound' technology, and I would say I'm more optimistic on this technology than u/jrs12 is, as there are excellent distance sensors, thermal cams, and computer-vision algorithms that have not yet made their way into everyday assistive tech. I've had blind users get extremely enthusiastic about thermal cams for instance.
Also aesthetics are very important, whatever it is, you have to make it enjoyable to use, if vibrations on the skin doesn't sound super fun for you, then it probably isn't for anyone else.
For instance, for your specific hardware idea, from the outset something like the 'tile key finder' seems ideal, you can attach acoustic tiles on your important objects and then use your phone to make them ring and hence make them easy to track and find. But I've not yet heard of a blind user of these, in my interviews this kind of technology is viewed really holistically - e.g. knowing of the tech, the process of getting the device, spending money on it, maintaining it / charging it, learning to use a new app, remembering to use it, and actually using it has to be seen as a better experience than the alternative (e.g. just remembering where you left objects). Also in the home, 'finding' objects regularly isn't usually the main issue, and you can always lose objects you forgot to 'tile.' Your friend will likely learn to adopt behaviours and strategies that negate the need for this kind of assistive technology in the first place.
In my own line of work (sensory substitution) the devices that gain the most enthusiasm tend to be 'digital canes' like the sunu band, enactive torch or EyeCane, which are simple to use and can paint out the 3D space around them giving the walls a real presence and it can be an enjoyable experience. Anything more complicated than that tend to drop off a cliff adoption wise, still there are lots of potential options between the digital cane and full 'vision-into-sound' technology, and I would say I'm more optimistic on this technology than u/jrs12 is, as there are excellent distance sensors, thermal cams, and computer-vision algorithms that have not yet made their way into everyday assistive tech. I've had blind users get extremely enthusiastic about thermal cams for instance.
Also aesthetics are very important, whatever it is, you have to make it enjoyable to use, if vibrations on the skin doesn't sound super fun for you, then it probably isn't for anyone else.
razzretina 4 points 3y ago
I appreciate your enthusiasm but I would suggest thinking of one thing to focus on and then seeing if it doesn’t already exist in a form that’s in common use. What we need a lot more at this point is accessible software. As far as hardware goes, you’re trying to rewrite a system that’s worked for us for decades and, in some cases, thousands of years. It’s just not something we need and if help is your goal, start by asking what we need instead of assuming what you would want in our stead. A lot of sighted people have wasted a lot of time and money on useless things because they didn’t want to hear what experts on the subject of blindness, aka blind people, have to say.
notthatkindadoctor 3 points 3y ago
People have been doing research on this and creating prototypes for 60+ years. There’s a vast scientific literature on sensory substitution. But the pragmatics involved mean it’s generally not a great way to help actual people who are blind. When you get feedback from actual people who say “this isn’t the way to help”, it may be worth listening and not doubling down.
Others with vastly more resources and expertise have created tech likely better than what you could create alone (like the Brainport lollipop of electrodes that gives tactile feedback to the tongue), and others are working on directly stimulating the visual cortex for very simplified “visuals” or trying to create artificial retinas that can be implanted at the back of the eye. But those projects can take million+ dollar grants and years of work from teams of experts with PhDs, and they aren’t guaranteed to ever see the light of day or provide day-to-day improvement for anyone, even with all those resources invested. Long run? Sure. Today? Good luck.
Usually the best way to “help” people is not to come up with an idea first and then try to convince them they need it. Instead, ask what barriers currently exist in their life and work to dismantle those. And those barriers might end up being legal (want to do some advocacy?) or social (want to do some education? some self work?) rather than technological.
Others with vastly more resources and expertise have created tech likely better than what you could create alone (like the Brainport lollipop of electrodes that gives tactile feedback to the tongue), and others are working on directly stimulating the visual cortex for very simplified “visuals” or trying to create artificial retinas that can be implanted at the back of the eye. But those projects can take million+ dollar grants and years of work from teams of experts with PhDs, and they aren’t guaranteed to ever see the light of day or provide day-to-day improvement for anyone, even with all those resources invested. Long run? Sure. Today? Good luck.
Usually the best way to “help” people is not to come up with an idea first and then try to convince them they need it. Instead, ask what barriers currently exist in their life and work to dismantle those. And those barriers might end up being legal (want to do some advocacy?) or social (want to do some education? some self work?) rather than technological.
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