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Blind and Visually Impaired Community

Full History - 2019 - 09 - 16 - ID#d56k5w
13
I feel like verbally ripping the Narrator screen reader software a new one, so here I go. (self.Blind)
submitted by 1_p_freely
I was setting up a laptop that I just got with Windows 7. Why Windows 7, when it is about to lose support? Because Windows 10 is literally malware. I use Linux most of the time, and this installation was going to be for offline use anyway. But on this new (old) laptop, I was facing a problem in Linux where the discrete graphics chip would not up-clock when running demanding applications, like Blender. I do have some vision.

Anyway, I installed Windows 7, got it all working, and then my problem with the graphics chip persisted. Apparently it isn't just a Linux thing. So I uninstalled the latest graphics drivers from Intel and AMD and instead, went to install the ones from Dell, the laptop manufacturer, which are years out of date. Upon uninstalling the newer drivers, I was left with a black desktop on both the integrated monitor and external display.

So then I fired up Narrator to navigate around "in the dark" and install the official drivers from the OEM. My god, that program makes me want to slit my own wrists. It is that terrible, slow, and useless. Even though this is a 16GB memory machine with a 3GHz processor, there is at least a 1 second delay between when I press a key and finding out what I've done. Narrator quickly tells me that I pressed the tab key (as if I didn't know), and then pauses forever before reading me the dialog box. If it even feels like doing that. This next bit is not Narrator's fault specifically, but every other software vendor has to make a new type of installer that doesn't work with a screen reader. So that, when you are installing drivers in the dark because the monitor does not work (or you are actually completely blind), you can't tell what you are tabbing to and clicking on. But at least the default voice actually sounds somewhat like a human and not a robot! That's what's *really* important.

I'm convinced that the only reason the Narrator screen reader even exists is because of sweet, sweet, government contracts. Microsoft could not get them if they did not at least pretend to give a rat's ass about assistive technology for the blind, and so, Narrator was born. Yes, Windows 7 is old. But by 2009, Narrator should have worked. Even by then, screen readers had been around for at least 25 years.

Yes, I know about NVDA. It works well. And it's free too, that helps. But it's not there on a default Windows install. You are stuck with Narrator, the screen reader equivalent of an employee who fouls up any and every task you assign to him.
jage9 10 points 3y ago
Agreed, luckily Narrator in Windows 10 is miles apart from where it was in Windows 7. Can't speak to other security issues, but Narrator has gone from a completely frustrating experience to at least a serviceable backup and perhaps more.
pitermach 4 points 3y ago
Regarding Windows 7 narrator you're absolutely correct, it's utter crap. I read some theories that the big AT companies actually blocked Microsoft from making it too good because they were afraid of losing the very profitable government and school markets.

However, once Satya Nadela took over as CEO, Microsoft has put a much huger emphasis on accessibility across the board. For Narrator, they actually hired multiple blind programmers who previously worked on industry leading screen readers like Window-Eyes and System Access for many years. The latest versions now support Braille displays, are much, much faster and have a really decent support for Edge and Chrome web browsers which in some cases is actually faster than NVDA. It still has a bit to go, but MS is really good at improving it and fixing bugs. I've been on the Insider program for a while, and the communication you get with the engineers working on it is great.
Altie-McAltface 2 points 3y ago
Narrator is the Internet Explorer of screen readers. Use it to download NVDA.
ColonelKepler 6 points 3y ago
Microsoft kind of half-asses everything though, not just Narrator.
bradley22 5 points 3y ago
Windows 7 narrator is bad but at least you can kind of use it.

You want a worse experience? Try xp and narrator

Windows 10 narrator works tuns better than 7s version.
Laser_Lens_4 3 points 3y ago
If your comment about WIndows 10 being malware is referring to all the telemetry then you should know Microsoft added most of that to Win7 as well.

Good on you for using Linux though. Orca and Linux do not make for a friendly environment. I usually stick to a bash terminal over SSH.

I've used Narrator on Win10 and yeah it's nowhere near as awful as what you're describing. I've noticed that accessibility has been fairly crap on most OSs until fairly recently, at least when it comes to built-in software. You still need fairly beefy hardware to run any of it though which is kind of annoying.
1_p_freely [OP] 5 points 3y ago
It is true that Orca is not that great. NVDA is way better (and faster too). But I think Orca is developed by like 1 person, a VI teacher. There was a team at Sun working on Orca. Then, Oracle bought Sun, laid them off, and here we are.

Assistive features for the blind is probably the very worst aspect of Linux. Unless you really, really know what you're doing and you know how to set the system up correctly. But that level of skill should not be necessary.

Compiz is the best magnifier, Xfwm4 works, but there are screen reader issues with Xfce, KDE has magnification, but again, the screen reader doesn't really work with KDE well yet. So I use Mate, Orca, and Compiz. Btw, Orca is the best graphical screen reader for Linux. It's also the only graphical screen reader for Linux! There are other screen readers that work on the console, like Speakup and Fenrir.
1_p_freely [OP] 2 points 3y ago
The mandatory telemetry is a drop in the bucket. I'm no fan of it, but the following bothers me much, much more.

https://www.theverge.com/2017/3/17/14956540/microsoft-windows-10-ads-taskbar-file-explorer

https://www.howtogeek.com/342871/hey-microsoft-stop-installing-apps-on-my-pc-without-asking/
blind_incrementalist 3 points 3y ago
I'm a fan of windows 10, honestly. I've used it for 3 and a half years streight, and nothing of those things, adds/unwanted app installs happened to me.

Maybe those are just rumors. Anyways, windows10 is a great system, and saying that it is malware is completely dumb. You can actually disable telemetry very easily.
quanin 3 points 3y ago
> Because Windows 10 is literally malware.

LOL. 10's got issues, but malware? Think Apple's got 'em beat there.
TrippingWithoutSight 3 points 3y ago
Use Narrator to install NVDA lol
RJHand 2 points 3y ago
Done that
Superfreq2 2 points 3y ago
This is why it's good to have NVDA with saved settings on a thumbdrive at all times. You just have to do some drive letter guessing with run, but it's almost always going to be drive E.

Then you can just use install to system from the portable copy and your set.
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