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Mentoring people (self.Blind)
submitted by DrillInstructorJan
Hello Reddit people.
I am after some advice. I have been completely blind since a car accident at age 19, which is about than twenty years ago now (that is a pretty scary realisation on its own, I am officially middle aged.) I am a session guitarist working around London where I live with my partner and I am co director of a musicians agency on the side.
Recently I have been asked on three separate occasions to mentor people. They were referred to me by a hospital where I have volunteered as a study model for ophthalmology students. I met the first person I worked with as we were there at the same time. She was saying really awful stuff that really shocked me because I remembered saying it myself years ago. I butted in because there was some stuff she needed to hear. Maybe that was arrogant of me.
We went on to meet up occasionally (with the permission of the hospital) and I would help her out with the basics, dealing with cash and clothing, reasons not to order spaghetti at a nice restaurant and all the simple stuff. We'd just go out and do stuff to demonstrate it can be done. We did a tiny little intro to cane travel which she had completely refused to do with anyone else.
I have now done this with two people and just been asked to see a third. I think they are all people who had a similar experience to me, young women who went from good sight to none very quickly who are having a very bad time climbing out of the hole, who are resistant to the standard approaches organisations take. I know I hated all that stuff, I was an idiot, it cost me four years of my life just whining. I wish I could go back in time and give past me a good talking to. Now I sort of get to do that and it is great.
The concern is I have no formal training to do this at all. Neither does my partner who I often rope in to help out. I am super aware that I am not qualified to handle mental health issues and I am not a qualified mobility trainer. I never took any formal training of any kind, I just worked stuff out. Apparently what we are doing works and people are happy but I keep asking myself. Is this OK? Are we doing the right thing? Is there anything we should be doing? I am just running on experience and instinct and I would hate to think I am doing any damage.
Any thoughts?
I am after some advice. I have been completely blind since a car accident at age 19, which is about than twenty years ago now (that is a pretty scary realisation on its own, I am officially middle aged.) I am a session guitarist working around London where I live with my partner and I am co director of a musicians agency on the side.
Recently I have been asked on three separate occasions to mentor people. They were referred to me by a hospital where I have volunteered as a study model for ophthalmology students. I met the first person I worked with as we were there at the same time. She was saying really awful stuff that really shocked me because I remembered saying it myself years ago. I butted in because there was some stuff she needed to hear. Maybe that was arrogant of me.
We went on to meet up occasionally (with the permission of the hospital) and I would help her out with the basics, dealing with cash and clothing, reasons not to order spaghetti at a nice restaurant and all the simple stuff. We'd just go out and do stuff to demonstrate it can be done. We did a tiny little intro to cane travel which she had completely refused to do with anyone else.
I have now done this with two people and just been asked to see a third. I think they are all people who had a similar experience to me, young women who went from good sight to none very quickly who are having a very bad time climbing out of the hole, who are resistant to the standard approaches organisations take. I know I hated all that stuff, I was an idiot, it cost me four years of my life just whining. I wish I could go back in time and give past me a good talking to. Now I sort of get to do that and it is great.
The concern is I have no formal training to do this at all. Neither does my partner who I often rope in to help out. I am super aware that I am not qualified to handle mental health issues and I am not a qualified mobility trainer. I never took any formal training of any kind, I just worked stuff out. Apparently what we are doing works and people are happy but I keep asking myself. Is this OK? Are we doing the right thing? Is there anything we should be doing? I am just running on experience and instinct and I would hate to think I am doing any damage.
Any thoughts?
bradley22 2 points 3y ago
How do you teach the people how to use a cane?
You may want to consider teaching them about technology.
I really wish there was a place blind or newly blind people could go to learn how to cook and use living skills but the places I’ve read about are for those with multiple disabilities, it’s interesting how we live in London, a place with tuns of stuff going on but when it comes to this kind of stuff, London seams to be lacking.
You may want to consider teaching them about technology.
I really wish there was a place blind or newly blind people could go to learn how to cook and use living skills but the places I’ve read about are for those with multiple disabilities, it’s interesting how we live in London, a place with tuns of stuff going on but when it comes to this kind of stuff, London seams to be lacking.
DrillInstructorJan [OP] 1 points 3y ago
I am totally into Amonwild's phraseology here, hit the thing with the stick to see if it is there!
We should be clear this is just a super basic introduction to allow people to get around the house and be guided safely. I always have a sighted helper (often my longsuffering partner, thanks Phil) to make sure nobody is going to go home limping.
Obviously you start with basic verbal instruction and body position stuff that I can just feel. For actual travel their left hand goes on my left shoulder, their right hand over mine on the cane so they know where my body is pointing and where the cane is going. I'm tiny so it's not awkward. We go down an edge then maybe someone puts out an obstacle then we go find it together a few times. Then they go in front and I can then check they're not drifting or over covering which is the big problem most people seem to have. We graduate from them hearing the obstacle going down, to not knowing where it is. When we do kerbs and steps we go side by side, me on the left because I can travel left handed better than they can, then we go find the kerb. One thing I do that will make O&M people scowl is have them pick a hand and mainly stick with it. What if you're carrying something etc.
Lots of attention is paid to how to guide someone but I am big on how to be guided. I get my partner to guide and I tell them to treat him like someone they don't totally trust, and develop their ability to find stuff they're about to be walked into, especially steps. I also do a lot of the doorway thing because that's also training for whoever they live with.
I think the most important thing is not even really technical. I make sure whenever we go out and about I always have my cane, which makes it OK for them to have theirs. Often we're both being guided by my partner and obviously with him I wouldn't bother with the cane, but I make a point of having it out so that in the very early days they get that it is normal and okay and not freakish. Maybe that sounds really remedial but that's the sort of level we've been at.
Does that make sense? I hope nobody has any huge objections... yikes.
Jan
We should be clear this is just a super basic introduction to allow people to get around the house and be guided safely. I always have a sighted helper (often my longsuffering partner, thanks Phil) to make sure nobody is going to go home limping.
Obviously you start with basic verbal instruction and body position stuff that I can just feel. For actual travel their left hand goes on my left shoulder, their right hand over mine on the cane so they know where my body is pointing and where the cane is going. I'm tiny so it's not awkward. We go down an edge then maybe someone puts out an obstacle then we go find it together a few times. Then they go in front and I can then check they're not drifting or over covering which is the big problem most people seem to have. We graduate from them hearing the obstacle going down, to not knowing where it is. When we do kerbs and steps we go side by side, me on the left because I can travel left handed better than they can, then we go find the kerb. One thing I do that will make O&M people scowl is have them pick a hand and mainly stick with it. What if you're carrying something etc.
Lots of attention is paid to how to guide someone but I am big on how to be guided. I get my partner to guide and I tell them to treat him like someone they don't totally trust, and develop their ability to find stuff they're about to be walked into, especially steps. I also do a lot of the doorway thing because that's also training for whoever they live with.
I think the most important thing is not even really technical. I make sure whenever we go out and about I always have my cane, which makes it OK for them to have theirs. Often we're both being guided by my partner and obviously with him I wouldn't bother with the cane, but I make a point of having it out so that in the very early days they get that it is normal and okay and not freakish. Maybe that sounds really remedial but that's the sort of level we've been at.
Does that make sense? I hope nobody has any huge objections... yikes.
Jan
bradley22 1 points 3y ago
Personally, I think what you’re doing is great!
Maybe you could give them a lesson or two on voiceover, if you have an IPhone and perhaps show them seeing AI so they can read things.
I veer slightly to the left if there’s no walls to follow, I think that’s just a blind thing.
Maybe you could give them a lesson or two on voiceover, if you have an IPhone and perhaps show them seeing AI so they can read things.
I veer slightly to the left if there’s no walls to follow, I think that’s just a blind thing.
DrillInstructorJan [OP] 1 points 3y ago
I guess it depends what you mean by a blind thing, it's famously the case that if you blindfold more or less anyone they won't be able to walk in a straight line. Mythbusters did this. Nobody can walk in a straight line without some sort of reference!
bradley22 1 points 3y ago
Really? That’s interesting.
Amonwilde 2 points 3y ago
I personally think you're doing the right thing. Credentials are nice and all but they're not the most critical thing in many cases and in many fields. If people are finding what you do valuable, then continue to help. You're not doing brain surgery, you're showing people how to hit things with a stick to see if they're there or not. And possibly lso giving free advice from someone who went through a similar experience. I personally would prefer your instruction to a random O&M session, based on how you've described it.
BlueRock956 1 points 3y ago
I know quite a bit about mentoring. I recommend you be her friend and mentor, but let the rehab professionals teach her the blindness core skills they need.
From what I’ve read, you have not received training and you are also trying to problem solve through your situation.
P.S. Spaghetti is delicious and there should not be a reason not to order it at a restaurant, as there are non-visual techniques to eat spaghetti without making a mess.
From what I’ve read, you have not received training and you are also trying to problem solve through your situation.
P.S. Spaghetti is delicious and there should not be a reason not to order it at a restaurant, as there are non-visual techniques to eat spaghetti without making a mess.
DrillInstructorJan [OP] 1 points 3y ago
Hi Blue rock
I am totally happy to do let the professionals do the mobility stuff, if they can persuade her. If their approach is so clumsy that she refuses to have anything to do with them, well. I view it as the lesser of two evils that I do something basic with them rather than they sit around doing nothing for eternity. If I can get qualified to do that, great.
And yes you could order spaghetti but you could also just have the penne and have more spare attention to give to the conversation.
Jan
I am totally happy to do let the professionals do the mobility stuff, if they can persuade her. If their approach is so clumsy that she refuses to have anything to do with them, well. I view it as the lesser of two evils that I do something basic with them rather than they sit around doing nothing for eternity. If I can get qualified to do that, great.
And yes you could order spaghetti but you could also just have the penne and have more spare attention to give to the conversation.
Jan
soundwarrior20 1 points 3y ago
It’s good work what you’re doing as an aside can you tell us more about the musician agency you run?
DrillInstructorJan [OP] 1 points 3y ago
Hi Soundwarrior
We mainly deal with guitarists and especially bass players. I don't really know how reddit works but if that is something you are interested in, send me a private message or something and we can talk about it. It's probably worth saying that it is not intended to be specifically set up for people with sight issues, it is not a blind musicians group. People meet me and assume it is but it isn't, it's just a business and we're happy to talk to anyone. If you're interested absolutely give me a shout.
Jan
We mainly deal with guitarists and especially bass players. I don't really know how reddit works but if that is something you are interested in, send me a private message or something and we can talk about it. It's probably worth saying that it is not intended to be specifically set up for people with sight issues, it is not a blind musicians group. People meet me and assume it is but it isn't, it's just a business and we're happy to talk to anyone. If you're interested absolutely give me a shout.
Jan
TheBlindBookLover 1 points 3y ago
Hi. I think that it is probably a good idea to get certified as a orientation and mobility instructor to learn about the wide array of onm skills and teaching techniques. I also think that it is important to look into whether or not you could face legal issues by teaching without an orientation and mobility credential. For instance, a person would probably not be allowed to work as a high school biology teacher without currently pursuing or completing a teaching credential even if they are knowledgeable in the subject. It is also important to make it clear to your students that you do not have a degree in this area. You should probably ask the hospital or a lawyer to help you make some sort of waver to prevent them from suing you if something bad happens. I hope that this helps.
DrillInstructorJan [OP] 1 points 3y ago
I have always been clear with everyone that I have no qualifications to do this, both to the people and often their parents.
But really that's the whole question. What qualifications could I get? One organisation told me the only way was a multi year degree which I am not in a position to do. And they weren't even that sure you could do it without sight. Maybe no blind person has ever become an O&M before, which is a bit shocking. That can't actually be true, can it?
This is not high school biology. I'm not teaching people academic material that leads to a recognised qualification, I'm trying to avoid them sitting in their bedrooms for the rest of their lives. If they stop doing that I've succeeded. As to the legal stuff I'll take my chances. I live in the UK where we don't usually sue one another at the drop of a hat. Anyone can sue anyone, any time they like, it's just a case of whether they are likely to win or not. I think a legal professional here would be pretty weirded out by being asked to draft something to stop a visually impaired person suing me.
But really that's the whole question. What qualifications could I get? One organisation told me the only way was a multi year degree which I am not in a position to do. And they weren't even that sure you could do it without sight. Maybe no blind person has ever become an O&M before, which is a bit shocking. That can't actually be true, can it?
This is not high school biology. I'm not teaching people academic material that leads to a recognised qualification, I'm trying to avoid them sitting in their bedrooms for the rest of their lives. If they stop doing that I've succeeded. As to the legal stuff I'll take my chances. I live in the UK where we don't usually sue one another at the drop of a hat. Anyone can sue anyone, any time they like, it's just a case of whether they are likely to win or not. I think a legal professional here would be pretty weirded out by being asked to draft something to stop a visually impaired person suing me.
KillerLag 1 points 3y ago
The hospital should really make a referral to RNIB for proper rehabilitation training. While a mentor is useful (especially because you've lived through the experiences), getting proper rehabilitation is also essential as well. Not to mention if there would be a liability issue if someone ended up having a severe accident (their cane misses a step and they fall down a flight of stairs, for example).
DrillInstructorJan [OP] 1 points 3y ago
Hi Killerlag
Thankyou for replying, and I totally get what you are saying. Though, if you train someone and they fall down a flight of stairs they're just as free to try and sue you as me.
Begin rant. I have very mixed views about RNIB.
Every person I have seen had given up on RNIB. I don't blame them, I did the same. Most RNIB people are well meaning but it can feel as if you are being metaphorically sent to a crappy nineteen seventies psychiatric hospital which smells of cabbage where people talk at you slowly and kindly. This happens at a time when you are clinging super hard to normality and the instituational feel is just horrifying. Is this your life from now on? It's like ice down your spine.
I also have a feeling that RNIB policy is made by people who were born with little or no sight. There's this weird propaganda that there's no reason for anyone to be unhappy about sight loss. I guess we probably agree that it's not about liking it (I don't LIKE it). It's about handling not liking it in a healthy way. But when you are new it is frightening to realise the experts don't seem to understand that distinction.
I think I am being sent the problem cases. Naturally I am totally keen to do everything I can to do it as well as I can but I've actually been quite hard put to discover what it takes for someone to become a mobility trainer or even if it's possible for me to do it, or even who controls that.
Jan
Thankyou for replying, and I totally get what you are saying. Though, if you train someone and they fall down a flight of stairs they're just as free to try and sue you as me.
Begin rant. I have very mixed views about RNIB.
Every person I have seen had given up on RNIB. I don't blame them, I did the same. Most RNIB people are well meaning but it can feel as if you are being metaphorically sent to a crappy nineteen seventies psychiatric hospital which smells of cabbage where people talk at you slowly and kindly. This happens at a time when you are clinging super hard to normality and the instituational feel is just horrifying. Is this your life from now on? It's like ice down your spine.
I also have a feeling that RNIB policy is made by people who were born with little or no sight. There's this weird propaganda that there's no reason for anyone to be unhappy about sight loss. I guess we probably agree that it's not about liking it (I don't LIKE it). It's about handling not liking it in a healthy way. But when you are new it is frightening to realise the experts don't seem to understand that distinction.
I think I am being sent the problem cases. Naturally I am totally keen to do everything I can to do it as well as I can but I've actually been quite hard put to discover what it takes for someone to become a mobility trainer or even if it's possible for me to do it, or even who controls that.
Jan
KillerLag 1 points 3y ago
Are there other services available in Britain? RNIB is the only one I am familiar with.
I wouldn't be surprised about the policy. Organizations are often pushing for the social model of disability (that society has barriers and society should eliminate those barriers). Which is all fine and good, but that doesn't help when someone first loses their vision and needs go go through the five stages of grief and get rehabilitation training.
Have you checked with the Royal National College for the Blind?(https://www.rnc.ac.uk/) I vaguely know they do some rehabilitation training, but that may be with just their students. However, you can ask them to find what other rehabilitation services are available.
I believe there have been a few people who are totally blind that have become certified Orientation and Mobility Specialists. The process for certification (in North America at least) is through Academy for Certification of Vision Rehabilitation & Education Professionals (https://www.acvrep.org/). I'm not sure if the process is different in Britain, I know the organization was pushing to become the standard for the world.
I wouldn't be surprised about the policy. Organizations are often pushing for the social model of disability (that society has barriers and society should eliminate those barriers). Which is all fine and good, but that doesn't help when someone first loses their vision and needs go go through the five stages of grief and get rehabilitation training.
Have you checked with the Royal National College for the Blind?(https://www.rnc.ac.uk/) I vaguely know they do some rehabilitation training, but that may be with just their students. However, you can ask them to find what other rehabilitation services are available.
I believe there have been a few people who are totally blind that have become certified Orientation and Mobility Specialists. The process for certification (in North America at least) is through Academy for Certification of Vision Rehabilitation & Education Professionals (https://www.acvrep.org/). I'm not sure if the process is different in Britain, I know the organization was pushing to become the standard for the world.
DrillInstructorJan [OP] 1 points 3y ago
I cannot respect the whole social model thing. That is exactly what I hear from RNIB, oh you can do anything you want and if you can't it's everyone else's fault. Sometimes that is true, mostly it is total rubbish. I can't drive, I can't take photos, I can't travel around solo without doing hours of preparation and running a significant risk that someone will forget and leave me standing in a building, calling the building I'm actually in, and asking them to come find me. That's one person's mistake, that's not evidence of some evil hegemony of sighted people working to keep me in my place. Obviously I don't shove that sort of thinking down the throats of the people I work with but they're not stupid, they're going to realise they're there are limits and I'm not going to patronise them by saying otherwise, and I am not going to try to tell them to blame society. Sure, get help from people, you have no choice, but don't blame them for putting up barriers if they're really not. That just makes it an argument.
Sorry that winds me up. One thing nobody gets about disability is how political it is.
I honestly know almost nothing about RNC. Everyone I have met doing this has been very very keen to stay in mainstream education, whether that's school or college. I think any of them would have just refused point blank to go anywhere whose name ended in "for the blind." Silly maybe but I know how they feel, I still feel the same way quite often.
Might give them a shout to see if there is anyone there who knows about training, but it's not like I'm going to be able to go and do a three year degree or whatever.
Sorry that winds me up. One thing nobody gets about disability is how political it is.
I honestly know almost nothing about RNC. Everyone I have met doing this has been very very keen to stay in mainstream education, whether that's school or college. I think any of them would have just refused point blank to go anywhere whose name ended in "for the blind." Silly maybe but I know how they feel, I still feel the same way quite often.
Might give them a shout to see if there is anyone there who knows about training, but it's not like I'm going to be able to go and do a three year degree or whatever.
KillerLag 1 points 3y ago
I was speaking to my wife about it, who knows a lot more about the theoretical models and such. The social model was originally created in the 60s by men in wheelchairs, when the system was literally stacked against them and people didn't want ramps and such. But times have changed. And while the theory may (or may not) be accurate, it does very little for someone who, after living with vision for 60 years, suddenly loses it. Even if everything was designed to be accessible, they still need to process the loss and get rehabilitation.
Personally, while I think theory is useful, it's dealing with the immediate issues the client has. A client probably doesn't care they can't access the elevator when they are literally peeing on the floor because they can't find the bathroom (I've had two clients do that before, unfortunately).
Regarding "for the blind", is there an organization that is "of the blind"? We have those in Canada, but I'm not familiar with the organizations in Britain so it is a bit hard coming up with searches.
The closest one I found was something called National Federation of the Blind of the UK (https://www.nfbuk.org/). Another option as well is the Royal Society for Blind Children (https://www.rsbc.org.uk/) and ask to speak to a worker to find out what services are available when they are out of the children's system.
Another possibility is the British Blind Sports (https://britishblindsport.org.uk/). You may just have to talk to some people to find where they access services.
Personally, while I think theory is useful, it's dealing with the immediate issues the client has. A client probably doesn't care they can't access the elevator when they are literally peeing on the floor because they can't find the bathroom (I've had two clients do that before, unfortunately).
Regarding "for the blind", is there an organization that is "of the blind"? We have those in Canada, but I'm not familiar with the organizations in Britain so it is a bit hard coming up with searches.
The closest one I found was something called National Federation of the Blind of the UK (https://www.nfbuk.org/). Another option as well is the Royal Society for Blind Children (https://www.rsbc.org.uk/) and ask to speak to a worker to find out what services are available when they are out of the children's system.
Another possibility is the British Blind Sports (https://britishblindsport.org.uk/). You may just have to talk to some people to find where they access services.
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