Blind and Visually Impaired Community
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Touchscreen stoves... has anyone here been confronted with this problem? (self.Blind)
submitted by KingWithoutClothes
My wife and I live in an apartment. During the past 2 months, our apartment block was going through big renovations. As you can imagine, this was not easy for my wife and me because we were forced to temporarily move out and live with my parents. Their place isn't exactly big either and so my wife and I were mostly confined to one single room, which we have been using as bedroom, living room and dining room all at the same time.
Despite these struggles, we were really looking forward to see the end result. Our apartment block was originally built in the 1970s and in many ways it urgently needed an update. For example we now got a dishwasher, which we didn't have before.
Yesterday, the renovations were finally finished and my wife and I went to meet the lady from the management and the architect who designed everything in our apartment. They made a little tour and showed us all the things that are new. At first we were super excited until... I noticed something in the kitchen that completely ruined my mood. Both our flat-top stove and our oven have been exchanged with new devices. This part we already knew. What we didn't know is that the management/architect decided to build in new devices that are exclusively controllable with touchscreens (before we had physical knobs and buttons that you could push and turn). They did this not just in our apartment but in all the other apartments that were renovated as well.
I have almost no functional vision left and it immediately became clear to me that this would be a giant problem. Finding the buttons for the different parts of the stove, as well as the heat regulator is near-impossible because there is zero tactile information. It's just flat glass. Also, even if I miraculously happened to find the correct buttons, I would have no idea how high or low I am setting the heat because it's only displayed visually, with a small red number. The same problem applies to the oven.
Not only would these new devices make cooking insanely frustrating for me, they are also very dangerous. Severe burns are almost certainly going to happen when I feel for the buttons and accidentally touch a hot part of the stove. Also, let's say I wanna try to read the small number and go really close - but there's something frying nearby. All it takes is one splash of burning hot oil into my eye to cause severe damage and injury.
Realizing this, I mentioned the problem to the manager and architect and said: "These devices are really not very friendly to blind folks (aka not accessible)." All I got in response was "yeah, you'll probably have to practice a bit until you master it." This remark really annoyed me. We have a lot of elderly neighbors and clearly, the manager and architect wanted to treat me like one of them. Obviously the situation is completely different. Getting used to something new can be challenging when you're 75 but if you have normal vision it's not really a big deal. It's a matter of attitude. When you're blind, practice does shit in this context. Still trying to be polite (which I probably shouldn't have been), I insisted that it's really not good for me. In return, the manager made the following dumbass joke: "well, why don't you look at it from the bright side: you can now live like a king who always gets served food by your wife!" This joke made both me and my wife very angry. I don't want to live "like a king". I want to live a free and independent life. I wanna be able to cook for myself whenever I'm hungry like a normal adult. I don't want to ask my wife for food all the time and only eat cereals for a week if she goes away. Besides, my wife is not my freaking maid. She already helps me with so many things that I'm very grateful for.
After this joke, the manager and the architect basically just turned around and acted like the discussion is over. They quickly told us something about the bathroom, then they said bye and left.
I feel extremely stressed out by this situation now. I'm already dealing with a lot of other things currently and now I've got this issue to worry about.
Has any of you been in a similar situation? Do you have any advice for me? I love cooking but I really don't see myself using these touchscreen devices. I wouldn't even know what I'm doing. I'm sad because the oldschool manual knobs worked great for me.
Despite these struggles, we were really looking forward to see the end result. Our apartment block was originally built in the 1970s and in many ways it urgently needed an update. For example we now got a dishwasher, which we didn't have before.
Yesterday, the renovations were finally finished and my wife and I went to meet the lady from the management and the architect who designed everything in our apartment. They made a little tour and showed us all the things that are new. At first we were super excited until... I noticed something in the kitchen that completely ruined my mood. Both our flat-top stove and our oven have been exchanged with new devices. This part we already knew. What we didn't know is that the management/architect decided to build in new devices that are exclusively controllable with touchscreens (before we had physical knobs and buttons that you could push and turn). They did this not just in our apartment but in all the other apartments that were renovated as well.
I have almost no functional vision left and it immediately became clear to me that this would be a giant problem. Finding the buttons for the different parts of the stove, as well as the heat regulator is near-impossible because there is zero tactile information. It's just flat glass. Also, even if I miraculously happened to find the correct buttons, I would have no idea how high or low I am setting the heat because it's only displayed visually, with a small red number. The same problem applies to the oven.
Not only would these new devices make cooking insanely frustrating for me, they are also very dangerous. Severe burns are almost certainly going to happen when I feel for the buttons and accidentally touch a hot part of the stove. Also, let's say I wanna try to read the small number and go really close - but there's something frying nearby. All it takes is one splash of burning hot oil into my eye to cause severe damage and injury.
Realizing this, I mentioned the problem to the manager and architect and said: "These devices are really not very friendly to blind folks (aka not accessible)." All I got in response was "yeah, you'll probably have to practice a bit until you master it." This remark really annoyed me. We have a lot of elderly neighbors and clearly, the manager and architect wanted to treat me like one of them. Obviously the situation is completely different. Getting used to something new can be challenging when you're 75 but if you have normal vision it's not really a big deal. It's a matter of attitude. When you're blind, practice does shit in this context. Still trying to be polite (which I probably shouldn't have been), I insisted that it's really not good for me. In return, the manager made the following dumbass joke: "well, why don't you look at it from the bright side: you can now live like a king who always gets served food by your wife!" This joke made both me and my wife very angry. I don't want to live "like a king". I want to live a free and independent life. I wanna be able to cook for myself whenever I'm hungry like a normal adult. I don't want to ask my wife for food all the time and only eat cereals for a week if she goes away. Besides, my wife is not my freaking maid. She already helps me with so many things that I'm very grateful for.
After this joke, the manager and the architect basically just turned around and acted like the discussion is over. They quickly told us something about the bathroom, then they said bye and left.
I feel extremely stressed out by this situation now. I'm already dealing with a lot of other things currently and now I've got this issue to worry about.
Has any of you been in a similar situation? Do you have any advice for me? I love cooking but I really don't see myself using these touchscreen devices. I wouldn't even know what I'm doing. I'm sad because the oldschool manual knobs worked great for me.
cax246 11 points 3y ago
I can totally understand your frustration and disappointment. I think they should have to make a change for you based on ADA. You should approach mgt again and if they still dismiss your concerns then follow up in writing requesting accommodation based on safety and ADA. If they still don’t offer a solution then you should contact atty skilled in Americans With Disabilities laws. Hope this helps!!
KingWithoutClothes [OP] 1 points 3y ago
Thank you. Unfortunately I'm not from the US and we don't really have any legal protections for disabled people in my country. I did write an email to the management though. I haven't yet received a response. I still appreciate your comment though because I wanted to see that this would also be a problem for other blind folks. I thought maybe someone here knows some tricks to use this kind of stove. The fact that you didn't suggest any such tricks confirms my feeling that it's a very serious issue that can only be solved by somehow getting a different stove/oven.
SpikeTheCookie 7 points 3y ago
Hi $1 I'm so sorry you're dealing with this. Their lack of being a human being is bit staggering. But, this is where you make good use of the awesome subreddit $1.
Give them your state, situation (renovation with non accessible stove in an apartment complex - size of complex - and what you've written here), and ask them if you have next steps based on the ADA or any other laws. Make sure to include your goal, which is probably to get an accessible stove vs suing them, right? The steps you take will depend on your goal. So you're looking for the process and language to make a new stove most likely.
They are probably violating landlord laws and such, and there's a fairly simple way to talk with them, using the correct legal language, in order to be understood, along with their responsibility in this situation.
IF they're good landlords, they will jump on this.
Right now, you've spoken with an ill-informed office manager and an architect who is not responsible for landlord laws. There are other steps you will be able to take to get this resolved.
Good luck!
Give them your state, situation (renovation with non accessible stove in an apartment complex - size of complex - and what you've written here), and ask them if you have next steps based on the ADA or any other laws. Make sure to include your goal, which is probably to get an accessible stove vs suing them, right? The steps you take will depend on your goal. So you're looking for the process and language to make a new stove most likely.
They are probably violating landlord laws and such, and there's a fairly simple way to talk with them, using the correct legal language, in order to be understood, along with their responsibility in this situation.
IF they're good landlords, they will jump on this.
Right now, you've spoken with an ill-informed office manager and an architect who is not responsible for landlord laws. There are other steps you will be able to take to get this resolved.
Good luck!
KingWithoutClothes [OP] 1 points 3y ago
Thank you. Unfortunately I'm not from the US, so that sub won't help me. I'm from Switzerland where we have almost no legal protections for disabled individuals. I have written an email to the management though. I haven't yet anything back but I hope they will eventually give in if I get on their nerves for long enough...
SpikeTheCookie 1 points 3y ago
> Switzerland
Oh, wow! I didn't realize that about Switzerland.
I looked at my stove and oven after you wrote, and realized that once my vision diminishes... I"m going to have an issues, as well.
There are some countertop ovens, and there are still portable single burners sold for college dorms, that still have old-fashioned knobs, so that's an option.
But ultimately, as "smart" appliances make their way to the market, we'll be able to control them from our smart phones. The ones hitting the market now are pretty expensive but they'll come down.
So, if the apartment complex won't work with you (and there are no laws to encourage this), the cheapest option might be a portable single burner. In the US, they start at about $15 and go up from there.
And thanks. This has really been educational. I've realized that my oven and my microwave are both gonna be hard to operate in the future!
Oh, wow! I didn't realize that about Switzerland.
I looked at my stove and oven after you wrote, and realized that once my vision diminishes... I"m going to have an issues, as well.
There are some countertop ovens, and there are still portable single burners sold for college dorms, that still have old-fashioned knobs, so that's an option.
But ultimately, as "smart" appliances make their way to the market, we'll be able to control them from our smart phones. The ones hitting the market now are pretty expensive but they'll come down.
So, if the apartment complex won't work with you (and there are no laws to encourage this), the cheapest option might be a portable single burner. In the US, they start at about $15 and go up from there.
And thanks. This has really been educational. I've realized that my oven and my microwave are both gonna be hard to operate in the future!
YourLocalMosquito 6 points 3y ago
I work in kitchen furniture - I’m fairly certain the cutout for the cooktop/stove/hob will be a “standard” size. I would suggest that they find you a different model that would suit your needs. It would be a simple switch over - take one out, put the other one in. You might just need a gas person or electrician to disconnect and reconnect. Don’t accept this model.
You might be able to do your own research - find another model from the same brand which is the same size and it should be simple for them to sort out. The cost of a replacement hob for them will be a tiny amount compared to the overall cost of the renovation.
Same with the oven.
Edit - you could even contact the manufacturer of the appliances, tell them your issue and see which models they would recommend which would fit into the same apertures.
You might be able to do your own research - find another model from the same brand which is the same size and it should be simple for them to sort out. The cost of a replacement hob for them will be a tiny amount compared to the overall cost of the renovation.
Same with the oven.
Edit - you could even contact the manufacturer of the appliances, tell them your issue and see which models they would recommend which would fit into the same apertures.
KingWithoutClothes [OP] 2 points 3y ago
Thank you! This is very helpful. I have now written an email to the management, requesting a different stove/oven. My mother also told me to not accept this and the fact that other people in this sub say too is very encouraging. And you're right, the size is indeed standard. I actually didn't know it would be that little work to exchange the devices.
ElfjeTinkerBell 5 points 3y ago
I don't have a solution ready for the fact that they put you in this position (insert angry swearing them here). However, have you heard of the app Be my eyes? It's not a perfect solution, but it might be a workaround.
I hope this will be solved though!
I hope this will be solved though!
Enigmus7612 3 points 3y ago
Oh, how offensive! I am surprised that the manager and the architect actually showed you what little respect they did. Just reading this post makes me shake my head and wonder how sighted people think blind people live. The half joke regarding your wife is so incredibly sexist, I’m surprise you’re not filing a lawsuit against the both of them for their behavior. So inappropriate, it’s not funny. As for the touchscreen stove, the closest I have come to that experience is at a former friends house. The landlord renovated all the apartments and installed new stoves with glass cooking services and touch controls. I pointed out to my former friend that this would be an issue if I was staying over at their place, and they were not available to assist me. Well, since they are now a former friend, this is no longer an issue. I hate when sighted people automatically assume that blind people have an easy time of picking up new information as quickly as a sighted person does. We know this is not the case, at least not always. One lesson I have learned from imperfect interactions with sighted people is this, record everything! A simple audio recording goes a long way to straighten out a misunderstanding, especially when it involves crude sexist remarks like the one directed toward you regarding your wife.
KingWithoutClothes [OP] 1 points 3y ago
Thank you. It feels very soothing to read your angry lines haha :). And believe me, I would love to sue them after this comment. The problem is I'm from Switzerland where disabled individuals have almost no legal protections. So it's frustrating in a two ways. When someone discriminates you it's already super frustrating but then you can't even do much about it. However, I have written an email to the management now. I told them I want a different stove/oven and I also told them the sexist/ableist remark was totally inappropriate. I haven't yet heard back from them but I hope that they will eventually give in if I get on their nerves for long enough. I'd even go as far as paying for the new devices myself because the current situation is really not working.
What depresses me the most, however, is the fact that the architect couldn't think of this. I mean, he's not some random office worker. He's a freaking architect who designs living spaces for people as a job. How can it not cross his mind that such a stove/oven would be a problem for a blind person? It's like designing a building without a ramp and without an elevator, not even thinking about the possibility that wheelchair-bound people might want to live there. Thinking about the different needs of your customers seems like such a basic thing. So, yes, I totally agree with you that it's very annoying how sighted people assume everyone's just like them and everything's a piece of cake.
What depresses me the most, however, is the fact that the architect couldn't think of this. I mean, he's not some random office worker. He's a freaking architect who designs living spaces for people as a job. How can it not cross his mind that such a stove/oven would be a problem for a blind person? It's like designing a building without a ramp and without an elevator, not even thinking about the possibility that wheelchair-bound people might want to live there. Thinking about the different needs of your customers seems like such a basic thing. So, yes, I totally agree with you that it's very annoying how sighted people assume everyone's just like them and everything's a piece of cake.
sk1ttl3s 2 points 3y ago
I would insists they address this situation, for one none of her responses were appropriate, let alone addresses your needs.
Also, in the meantime is there maybe a setting at all in the stove to change it so there is audible feedback? Like 1 beep=low 4beeps= high? Honestly I would love for you to blast the Creator in YouTube, Twitter whatever it takes to get their attention, because this inaccessibility, is awful.
Also, in the meantime is there maybe a setting at all in the stove to change it so there is audible feedback? Like 1 beep=low 4beeps= high? Honestly I would love for you to blast the Creator in YouTube, Twitter whatever it takes to get their attention, because this inaccessibility, is awful.
KingWithoutClothes [OP] 1 points 3y ago
Unfortunately there is zero audio output. No beeps, nothing. As you can imagine, this makes the situation much more difficult. Also, the red blinking numbers are really small... like maybe 8 millimeters (a third of an inch). For my amount of vision, this is impossible. And since my medical prognosis is bad, I also need to plan for a future where I won't see anything.
I have written an email to the management though, telling them I won't accept these devices. I hope they will eventually give in if I get on their nerves for long enough. For now, I haven't yet heard back from them.
If we're gonna go with a touchscreen stove and oven, I would need devices with AI that work like Siri or Alexa but better. Basically devices that understand you when you talk to them and then do it for you. I don't know if this even exists though. Anyway, thank you for your post.
I have written an email to the management though, telling them I won't accept these devices. I hope they will eventually give in if I get on their nerves for long enough. For now, I haven't yet heard back from them.
If we're gonna go with a touchscreen stove and oven, I would need devices with AI that work like Siri or Alexa but better. Basically devices that understand you when you talk to them and then do it for you. I don't know if this even exists though. Anyway, thank you for your post.
bscross32 2 points 3y ago
See if there's anyone else at the property manager's office you can get in touch with, if yes take it there, also if no, or if no results with the management office, take it to the owner if you can. Consider calling your local news outlet, they'll love to cover this. Then contact the company who made the stove and raise your concerns. Also, maybe if it's touch screen, it can also be app controlled? A long shot, but worth checking into.
vwlsmssng 2 points 3y ago
Yes, we have had this problem but have been fortunate enough to have it partly fixed.
We moved into a newly built house on an estate where the kitchens all had induction hobs with touch controls. The oven had rotary dials with very limited feedback as to their position.
Induction hobs are good because they are more energy efficient than other electric hobs. The problem is that they almost universally come with touch controls with only visual affordances (things that help you use it) and visual feedback (things that tell you what effect you have had.)
Before we moved in to our new house we were able to arrange to have a different model of induction stove top installed which featured rotary controls with very good tactile feedback.
The rotary control knobs are shaped so the direction they point in is very obvious from the feel of them. The controls have a resistance and "notch" that you feel when turning a hob element on. To turn a hob on you have to push against the resistance and cross the notch after which the resistance drops suddenly which means the hob is switched on. The stove beeps when the first hob is switched on. The rotation of the knob is proportional to the power output of the hob, 90 degrees is about 33% power, 180 degrees is about 66% power.
Turning the controls as far as they turn to push against another spring resistance gives another beep and activates a boost feature to rapidly bring a pan to the boil.
Turn the controls anticlockwise from the off position until the stove beeps and red indicator flashes, this activates another feature of the stove which runs the element at high power until the pan gets hot at which point the element turns down to the heat setting you selected.
The controls are also positioned across the front of the stove (not the side as is common) so you don't have to reach across the hot parts of the stove to access the controls.
The stove has, just above the control knobs, bright red illuminated (LED) digits in a 2 x 2 grid mimicking the layout of the hobs. They turn on to indicate the power setting of each hob or if the are still hot. They will also flash if there is no pan on the associated hob element. They are big enough and bright enough to be helpful to a cook with at least some sight.
I've gone into all this detail so that you may better understand what you can expect to get from a well designed stove top that also happens to be accessible without relying on perfect vision.
I've checked the USA website of the maker of this stove top and they don't have the same range, including our stove, as available in the UK.
We moved into a newly built house on an estate where the kitchens all had induction hobs with touch controls. The oven had rotary dials with very limited feedback as to their position.
Induction hobs are good because they are more energy efficient than other electric hobs. The problem is that they almost universally come with touch controls with only visual affordances (things that help you use it) and visual feedback (things that tell you what effect you have had.)
Before we moved in to our new house we were able to arrange to have a different model of induction stove top installed which featured rotary controls with very good tactile feedback.
The rotary control knobs are shaped so the direction they point in is very obvious from the feel of them. The controls have a resistance and "notch" that you feel when turning a hob element on. To turn a hob on you have to push against the resistance and cross the notch after which the resistance drops suddenly which means the hob is switched on. The stove beeps when the first hob is switched on. The rotation of the knob is proportional to the power output of the hob, 90 degrees is about 33% power, 180 degrees is about 66% power.
Turning the controls as far as they turn to push against another spring resistance gives another beep and activates a boost feature to rapidly bring a pan to the boil.
Turn the controls anticlockwise from the off position until the stove beeps and red indicator flashes, this activates another feature of the stove which runs the element at high power until the pan gets hot at which point the element turns down to the heat setting you selected.
The controls are also positioned across the front of the stove (not the side as is common) so you don't have to reach across the hot parts of the stove to access the controls.
The stove has, just above the control knobs, bright red illuminated (LED) digits in a 2 x 2 grid mimicking the layout of the hobs. They turn on to indicate the power setting of each hob or if the are still hot. They will also flash if there is no pan on the associated hob element. They are big enough and bright enough to be helpful to a cook with at least some sight.
I've gone into all this detail so that you may better understand what you can expect to get from a well designed stove top that also happens to be accessible without relying on perfect vision.
I've checked the USA website of the maker of this stove top and they don't have the same range, including our stove, as available in the UK.
BenandGracie 2 points 3y ago
You could try having someone put braille labels on the parts of the screen that don't change. The only problem is that the label tape melts from the heat.
vwlsmssng 3 points 3y ago
Tactile labels only help you locate the controls, you still can't tell if touching the surface at these points have any effect or if the stove is in a hazardous state.
When using a stove or oven you need to know if the hobs are off or on, and if on are they low or high or somewhere in between.
You also want to know if touching the controls is having any effect.
When using a stove or oven you need to know if the hobs are off or on, and if on are they low or high or somewhere in between.
You also want to know if touching the controls is having any effect.
BenandGracie 3 points 3y ago
You're exactly right. My mom did this to her stove, and I thought it was a touch screen, but I looked at it after I posted last night, and her stove has bottons that are flat. I just use the labels to know where to push. A I don't know what I would do if her stove was an acctual touch screen.
vwlsmssng 0 points 3y ago
> I don't know what I would do if her stove was an acctual touch screen.
Either Microsoft write a stove specific module for Seeing AI or you hope someone on Be My eyes can see exactly what needs to be done and can give clear and promptly followable instructions as the milk pan boils over!
Either Microsoft write a stove specific module for Seeing AI or you hope someone on Be My eyes can see exactly what needs to be done and can give clear and promptly followable instructions as the milk pan boils over!
TrippingWithoutSight 1 points 3y ago
This happened in my old apartment; by that time I pretty much mapped out which labeled button did what and I didn't even need to read the braille.
lhamil64 1 points 3y ago
Out of curiosity, would you be able to post the model number of the stove/oven? I'm curious if the manufacturer built in any accessibility features or anything.
Obviously the better solution would be for management to replace it with a more accessible model, but it wouldn't hurt to see if there are workarounds in case they're unreasonable about replacing it.
Obviously the better solution would be for management to replace it with a more accessible model, but it wouldn't hurt to see if there are workarounds in case they're unreasonable about replacing it.
Winnersh 1 points 3y ago
I am sighted. I encountered one of these stoves recently and this was my first thought.
Which country are you in KingWithoutClothes?
Which country are you in KingWithoutClothes?
KingWithoutClothes [OP] 1 points 3y ago
I'm from Switzerland
[deleted] 1 points 3y ago
[deleted]
TrippingWithoutSight 0 points 3y ago
Sue them. This is completely fucking acceptable. And the remarks that they made like they dismissed the accessibility issues? Even more reason to sue. This makes me absolutely fucking FURIOUS, and I'm incredibly sorry you had to go through that.
Sigh.
Sigh.
KingWithoutClothes [OP] 1 points 3y ago
Unfortunately I can't sue them. I'm from Switzerland where we have almost no legal protections for disabled people. For example there is no anti-discrimination act like in the US. This makes the situation (and others like it) double-frustrating. It's painful to get discriminated but when it happens you can't even properly do anything about it. At least not legally. I'm basically dependent on their goodwill. Anyway, I've now written an email to the management, saying I won't accept this stove and oven. My strategy is to keep writing emails until they hopefully give in.
Thank you for your post though, your angry words are very soothing haha :). It's good to know other people would have been as frustrated about this as I am.
Thank you for your post though, your angry words are very soothing haha :). It's good to know other people would have been as frustrated about this as I am.
DarkWickedWolf 0 points 3y ago
Can't you stick bumpons on every touch button?
TrippingWithoutSight 2 points 3y ago
What if the screen changes depending on context? That would render stick-on buttons pointless.
vwlsmssng 2 points 3y ago
This will help you get your fingers close to the controls, assuming you haven't touched anything hot first, but doesn't solve the problem of knowing what state the cooker is in and knowing what effect if any your prodding is having.
[deleted] -9 points 3y ago
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