Hey there. I'm getting into computer science and I've very recently realized what a pickle I've put myself in. Weeks of research,, diving into 15-year-old mailing lists, and trying different solutions have been problematic at best and useless at worst.
I'm the idiot who posted about Braille displays not long ago, naively thinking I could just Braille out some UEB math no problem. Yeah I can't do that.
So if you don't feel like reading my whole post, the tl;dr is how can I do math without sight when I am technologically gifted and don't know a lick of Nemeth? Maybe LaTex? Suck it up and learn some Nemeth on a Braillenote?
So here's the long version. Since computer science requires a lot of math right up through Calculus, I figured I needed something better than learning a couple of MS word keystrokes for superscripts and funky symbols. I started learning UEB through uebonline.org and was taking the advice of the AT specialist at my college to use Mathtype which can output to UEB but after some research I've realized that UEB math adoption in the US is dicey at best... oh and Mathtype doesn't actually fully get along with my screen reader. So after some back-and-forth we decided I try my hand at LaTeX. Apparently you can type LaTeX into Word and convert it into beautiful math equations with the Mathtype plugin. I don't like this as the Mathtype app itself is not accessible (I can't even enter a product key on my own) and it also does not have any debugging capabilities available to me through a screen reader so if I typo somewhere and forget a bracket then I'm probably SOL.
I like the LaTeX approach since it's widely used and I rather enjoy markup languages. I could also most definitely Braille out LaTeX with minimal training.
That leads me to another problem. I cannot find an accessible LaTex editor for Windows. NFB had an article where they suggested Texnic Center but either it doesn't work with JAWS and NVDA or I was too dumb to set it up properly.
I could do it through Mathtype on MS Word, but again, no debugging and I can't even register the damn software without help.
I've learned Braille my whole life and recently transitioned to UEB but I never learned Nemeth since I had enough sight to do most of my work visually during grade school.
I went to a tech conference today where I got to try a bunch of Braille stuff. The HIMS rep straight up told me the Braillesense Polaris doesn't do well with high level math and the Humanware rep was only able to show me that Keymath on the Braillenote Touch could insert high-level symbols like differentials and integrals. I guess that's something but 6 grand is an awful lot of cash to drop on a rep's seemingly questionable knowledge.
So I've been tearing my hair out the past few weeks with no good answer to be found. Or not one satisfactory to me, at any rate. Anybody know how to get a good sightless LaTeX workflow set up? Hell, I'll switch from Windows if there's something good on iOS or whatever. Should I suck it up and learn Nemeth and go for the Braillenote? Something else? I'm really not sure what to do and I'm not really sure where to go when I've already gone through mailing lists recommending Windows XP programs that don't exist anymore.
mallorypallory3 points3y ago
I have no experience with LaTeX or MathType. I do work with a braillenote a lot with students, however their math input is on a much smaller scale than you would probably need. One thing that is pretty awesome about the braillenote though is if you don't know a Nemeth symbol, you can very easily look it up using commands. It might be worth a trial period if that's at all possible.
Desmos online calculator and graphing calculator is also quite accessible using a screen reader. And also free. Not sure what you can do with the solutions but the actual doing math might be helpful.
Sorry if this doesn't help!
Laser_Lens_4 [OP]1 points3y ago
That's about as much as I know about the Braillenote as well.
I'm curious about Desmos. I heard it talked about by the HIMS people but I'm not totally sure what it is? Is it just calculators or does it do more?
mallorypallory2 points3y ago
So the cool thing with the braillenote is you can input math just fine and it prints out really nice if you need someone with vision to read it. As long as the math is linear and not spatial.
I will look more into the Desmos because I'm curious myself as well.
This might be a dumb question but what kind of math do you need to do? You said calculus so integrals and derivatives and stuff? I can try it out
Laser_Lens_4 [OP]1 points3y ago
bilinear do you mean that it's all just on one line and it automatically wraps to the next depending on the size of the workspace? I'm guessing you can't do fancy stuff like a two-column layout and show your work for each equation by having each successive step below the previous?
mallorypallory1 points3y ago
Yeah linear would be just one line as opposed to spatial equations where you need to move up and down to your work. Good example of linear equations would be anything algebraic, where each step you do moves to a new line. Long division is a good example of spatial arrangement and is usually done on a Braille writer (at least from my experience). For the 2 column layout...is it just a table with 2 columns and the first column is one equation with the steps below and the second column is a separate equation? Does it only make sense if it's in 2 columns?
I can look at the braillenote's capabilities with tables but I'm not sure. I think if that were me and my student, I'd have him write them separately? But I don't know. What do you do with the solutions?
CloudyBeep1 points3y ago
Here's the Desmos calculator: https://www.desmos.com/scientific
AndAdapt2 points3y ago
Writing the math for papers and assignments use latex. I would suggest you get familiar with emacs and emacspeak.
Bare in mind in computer science you may often be presented with the maths and be expected to express that in a programming language. That math can be given to you in latex form by your teachers.
I did a computer science master's and the math was very difficult for me. I often used a sighted assistant, I would then express the maths in python and all was good
Laser_Lens_4 [OP]1 points3y ago
What did the sighted assistant help you with specifically? Emacs is a Mac OS and Linux thing, right? Do you know if it would be available on iOS for an iPad?
AndAdapt3 points3y ago
They helped with verbally describing the maths formula, I would then express it as code. Then I was all good.
He it will run on linux, Mac or even windows. Nothing for ios. However, as latex is essentially plain text you can write it in any text editor. For example, I wrote my dissertation using voice dream writer on my iPad pro. I recommended emacs as will be very helpful for all your coding and plain text needs
Laser_Lens_4 [OP]2 points3y ago
Hey. Thanks for the info. I managed to get emacs and emacspeak running in Windows. I'm not sure if this is the right approach for me since it doesn't work with nvda and doesn't have Braille output. however, it did point me to some more resources that I hadn't previously found. I think I may have found something that works. I'm not sure yet but it's because I followed your advice that I found it.
MostlyBlindGamer2 points3y ago
I've been very disappointed with NVDA for programming on Windows. There are a lot of compatibility issues between 32 and 64 bit applications, because NVDA just doesn't have 64 bit support.
Based on my experience (mind you I completed me degree while mostly sighed and am only now transitioning to screen readers) you should find a text editor that works for you got programming and then use LaTeX.
Your teachers write their materials in LaTeX, so you can just get the source code from them.
You can write LaTeX anywhere and use command line tools to build your documents. That might be easier than trying to navigate an IDE.
AndAdapt1 points3y ago
I don't know much about it working on windows I am afraid. Emacspeak has to output to a speech server. Not sure how you do that on windows
Stick812 points3y ago
I use the Humanware Brailliant 32, with NVDA, no problems as of yet, to include all my work for my physics lab work in college, and that was a lot of Calculus!
Laser_Lens_4 [OP]1 points3y ago
How'd you do that? What did you write your math in?
CloudyBeep2 points3y ago
I believe you can use Duxbury to convert between print and braille math using Latex. You would write the braille math on a braille notetaker as a .brl file which you would then open in Duxbury and could then (I believe) have appear in nice print math. You should email Duxbury Systems for more specifics.
Laser_Lens_4 [OP]2 points3y ago
I've heard of DBT. I believe it only translates between Nemeth and LaTeX though so that would still leave the issue of debugging and actually doing the fancy typesetting so I can turn in homework and such
CloudyBeep1 points3y ago
I thought that there's a way you can convert Latex to nice-looking print math. I really don't know too much about doing math at this level though, so hopefully other people will give better answers than I have.
AmAsabat1 points3y ago
I’m not a mathematician though I did study math for a year before choosing humanities route i was more suited too. Whatever you do a year now is not an issue if it sets you up better later.
AmAsabat1 points3y ago
Learn Nemeth. If you really want to succeed its the only way
Laser_Lens_4 [OP]1 points3y ago
I'm keeping it in mind as a last resort. Learning nemeth means delaying my school by a year and finding some place that teaches it to adults. I'll do it if there's no other way but I'm not convinced that that is true. Tons of people use LaTeX. Surely there's a way to adapt that into a blind workflow.
faerylin1 points3y ago
It’s not on the computer but may help with math. Contact your college and they can loan you a scientific calculator that has an audio screen attached. It has helped me a ton.
Can you write your latex in vs code or another editor and then you a command line utility to turn it into a PDF or whatever? This is more or less what I do on Linux.
blackberrybunny1 points3y ago
My friends, who are completely blind since birth, used the Nemeth Code to do all math. I don't know much about it, because I can see a little. I never learned it because I could get very close to my papers and do simple math. I'm legally blind my whole life. But now, we have all of this amazing technology that I am sure can help a lot. But it might not hurt to look into the Nemeth Code, just to see. It was invented by a Dr. Abraham Nemeth, who was blind, and invented it to do even very complex math problems.
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