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Blind and Visually Impaired Community

Full History - 2020 - 07 - 27 - ID#hz4wak
10
Questions for blind gamers (self.Blind)
submitted by Techfreak102
I read through some of the previous posts from this sub about this topic, but I had a handful of questions and was hoping for opinions from gamers who’re blind or visually impaired:

1) It seems most gamers here prefer to use controllers with joysticks as opposed to keyboards for gaming. Personally, what input method do you find most comfortable/easy to use? And does it differ for different styles of games (controller for Slay the Spire versus keyboard for Civilization V)?

2) Are there any games that you’re watching out for, for accessibility enhancements? Games that now aren’t accessible enough to play blind, but have an interesting premise or seem fitting to audio queues and such?

3) What’re your biggest complaints in games that are tagged as “accessible?” What sort of features do you commonly find to be lacking or missing that you wish it had?

Thanks for any responses. I’m trying to get an idea what sort of hurdles your community deals with in hopes of maybe being able to help in accessibility efforts with games.

Edit: Phrasing
Aron333333 3 points 2y ago
Hi there.

​

I don't really know what the formatting will look like so sorry for any weirdly placed lines or whatnot.

1. I myself use either my ps4 or Xbox controller for basically every game. Don't really use the keyboard to play games.
2. 2. Not currently.
3. 3. The last of us 2's item scanning could be a bit better.

Something extra.

I've beaten Metal Gear solid 1 on the Playstation thanks to tank controls (pressing the up arrow on the ps1 controller moves you north, right moves you east etc) and stereo sounds. Currently working my way threw mgs 2.

The pokemon games (from gen 1 to gen 7 (gen 7 not being that playable)) are very playable thanks to the wall bump sounds and the same controls that mgs 1 threw 3 have.

There are also a bunch of fighting games like Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Soul Calibur, Super Smash bros etc that blind people play.

If you have any more questions then ask.

I should also point out that I'm totally blind.

Aron
grinchnight14 1 points 2y ago
We all know MGS 3 is the best one lol.

Watching my brother play it was so fun even though I myself wasn't even playing.
Techfreak102 [OP] 1 points 2y ago
Thanks a lot for your experience Aron! I have to admit that I had never even considered the existence of visually impaired gamers, so I wanted to try and get a better idea of the challenges you all face. I’m also a software developer, so I was curious if there were any accessibility efforts that would be worthwhile for big games that I could help out on.

Good luck with MGS 2!
So_Motarded 1 points 2y ago
> any accessibility efforts that would be worthwhile for big games

The Last of Us 2 has become a massive hallmark for a wealth of accessibility features, and may well become the gold standard in that regard. $1 from a buddy of mine showing how combat looks in it. (He also streams this and other games twice a week). Here's a $1 (including a detailed tour of the features) from one of the consultants who helped create it.

One major feature missing from games is Audio Description, a narration track which describes the visuals in between existing dialogue. While common in film and TV, it has never really been done for games. We've $1 ourselves for some games and trailers, but no Triple A game has included it yet. Closest we've gotten is Xbox having AD versions of their trailers now, which is super cool to see (especially $1 where everyone can get in on the hype).
Techfreak102 [OP] 2 points 2y ago
My girlfriend and I watched an episode of Unsolved Mysteries on Netflix which was in French, and it had the full audio description as the only English audio option. That was the first time I’d seen narration that included a description of the scene, so that’s good to know that’s the goal.

I’ll definitely check those links out tomorrow. Thanks a bunch!
Aron333333 2 points 2y ago
u/Techfreak102

The sutgestion that u/BlindFuryC gave has 2 sides.

1. There are a bunch of people there who will help you out, but
2. There are also a lot of people there who might be really toxic.

You might also want to contact Superblindman on twitter:

$1

or find the user "Ianhamilton", on the $1 forum. Those 2 can give you some really good answers.

Aron.
BlindFuryC 1 points 2y ago
u/Aron333333

I do kind of agree. Any community of a sufficient age (I think that's more important than size for this assertion) starts to get divisions, but I'm hoping that ultimately this will be enough of a "this thing helps everyone!" topic to largely illicit positive responses and things won't have a reason to turn sour. I could be wrong though. I will say I've not experienced this myself, but I can spend whole spells of time away from there.

I think those are good people to talk to too, though I worry that their experience of being a blind gamer is different to mine, and probably yours too, since our levels of vision, experiences, likes, dislikes, gaming styles and so on all are subjective. Which by no means invalidates them, they have a whole bunch of good advice I'd bet, but it's best taken alongside a broad view too. I worry about a future (probably unnecessarily) where accessibility mods and the like are all fed by 1 or 2 chosen gamers that can make themselves heard
Techfreak102 [OP] 1 points 2y ago
Thanks a ton!

Yeah, I get the inherent hostility from some people when sighted people “invade” their forum. My girlfriend is a high school special education teacher and was really involved in deaf communities in college, so I’m familiar with the sentiment. Both the autistic and deaf communities have a lot of nuances (maybe not the right word?) that neurotypical or hearing individuals don’t get, and that can make people mad since it comes off as ignorance. I’ve had to learn a lot and still continue to do so

Quick edit: I just realized that the profile you linked is the author of an article I read before posting this! I came across “How to make 80-hour adventures for blind gamers” by Brandon when I was looking into accessibility efforts that are currently happening. It was really helpful for getting me at least acquainted with the main points of needs for blind players
magouslioni690 1 points 2y ago
1: I use keyboard and mouse

2: most of the games that are already released won't have any accessibility improvements by the devs but For Honor, ESO, The Witcher, Skyrim, GTA, Mass effect.

​

I'm not fully blind, but I do use a screenreader and can't play all the videogames.
BlindGuyNW 1 points 2y ago
Hey,

This is up my alley. I'll respond and hope it helps you out, or we can talk a bit about ways to make specific gaming accessibility projects work, as I'm a huge fan of that kind of thing. :)

1. I'm a keyboard person as well, mostly because up until recently I never had a controller to use, nor honestly played games which could benefit from such. I'm all about strategy games and similar experiences.

2. I'm a huge fan of all games from Paradox Development Studeo, such as Stellaris and Europa Universalis IV. I firmly believe that with a little work those games could become 100% playable, or at least very, very close. The advent of OCR for Windows 10 has made it possible to at least poke at many games I would never have considered before, hence what I've been doing of late :)

3. My biggest gripe about current accessible games, with a few exceptions, is lack of depth. There's nothing to really compare to Civilization for the blind, and that's got a lot to do with the gap between mainstream and "audio," games. This is slowly changing, and I'm gratified to see it, but we're nowhere near where we could be. I believe mods could help out with this, as witness the work on Slay the Spire recently.

I hope this is at least informative. I"m more than happy to chat about this stuff in more depth if you'd like to do so.
Techfreak102 [OP] 1 points 2y ago
Thanks for taking the time to reply!

I’m a big fan of Stellaris (although I haven’t played it in more than a year) so that’d definitely be awesome to have accessible. Talking with u/BlindFuryC, it seems like Civilization VI would be a good candidate for me to start looking into modding.

What’re the features in Stellaris that you find challenging or impossible to do without sight? I may also be looking into that, since I know Stellaris plays well on Linux, which is my main development machine.
BlindGuyNW 1 points 2y ago
It's also been a while since I played, but the biggest annoyance was screens which scrolled when combined with OCR. I ended up creating a bunch of bookmarks for Golden Cursor, which basically allowed me to move the mouse to specific places, but they only worked on my particular screen resolution, and were not ideal for areas like race and galaxy creation with huge lists.

Now, the advantage of something like Civ 6 is that you have an actual SDK to play with. I wonder if Civ 5 might be easier, since it had a fuller modding kit available last I saw. In theory, you could fairly easily hook up the game functions to speak via screen readers using something like the Tolk library.

Basically, my preference is for games I Can control with the keyboard almost entirely, and if I can't find that, games which would allow mouse bookmarks, like Stellaris. Civ seems to fall into the former category for the most part.
BlindFuryC 1 points 2y ago
Not that there’s anything wrong with asking on here, but I would highly recommend asking on https://www.audiogames.net for a wider pool of responses.

As for me, input wise, it depends on the game. I would say this isn’t massively blind specific, until you come into the rumble feature which can be a very useful accessibility aid if used correctly.

I have attempted to mod civilisation to become accessible before, as a whole bunch of it is textbased. Haven’t had any luck with 6 yet, I think I need to look for help LOL. But in theory it’s doable. There’s lots of other games I can imagine that would be accessible given a bit of love.
Techfreak102 [OP] 1 points 2y ago
Thanks for the link! I actually have Civilization VI, and I wanted to look into how to help out with accessibility modding, so I’ll probably start by looking into that! I’ve had it for a while, but I’ve only ever played Civilization V. Do you have any specific recommendations for things to look out for when I do a play through, being that I’m sighted so will probably overlook some more necessary accessibility features? And do you play Civilization with a controller or keyboard? When I was heavy into Civilization V I got really good with the keyboard commands to deal with my units and never used a mouse, so I’d assume that’d be more effective than a controller.

Thanks a ton for your help!
BlindFuryC 1 points 2y ago
I like the sound of this. I'm hoping you'll have more luck than I did looking into this, or maybe one of us will make a breakthrough that'll help the other. I looked before, and the best hope from what I could see seemed to be in the scripting in mods that uses LUA. I don't know that myself but I'd imagine I can learn it. The one thing I couldn't figure out though was how to get hold of the text assets displayed in order to announce them somehow. Then there's the mystery of how to announce them itself. A couple of ideas spring to mind, but I'm going off on a tangent here. Sorry. It turns out I've got a lot to say on this :)

Anyway, for what it's worth I'm always a keyboard and mouse user with all Civ games. Quite apart from anything, yeah, those shortcut keys make life so much easier. Things to look out for, I think it depends whether you'd target a user who is completely blind or with some useful vision, there's a spectrum after all. I think you'd need screen reader support of text for both though. I can see enough to navigate (ish), but my reading is slow and sometimes in accurate, so the screen reader support would be an immense help. So having it read out, say the hover-over tooltips, some way of reading out the end of turn events, and something I genuinely can't access because my reading isn't quick enough even with a magnifyer, the combat results, would be really useful. So there's all that. Some of the advisory and flavour text is already read allowed, so that's not so bad. But some isn't, so that'd also be useful. So yeah, text is a big part here. Once you've cracked that that's a whole bunch of the way there.

The next major hurdle will be navigation, in particular for completely blind players, as a lot of it is mouse centric. I'm imagining you'd need some sort of way to navigate hex by hex. To be honest I think I'd find this useful too. The hex system doesn't necessarily always play great with arrows, 6 directions and all. So I'm thinking, either 6 roughly co-located keys on the keyboard, maybe with a modifier key, or hope that people will be comfortable using a mouse, but that can sometimes be a bit alien to some blind players. Though I think that's less the case now than before, so hopefully that's got legs. If mouse navigation was an option, you could have it make a small noise when moving hexes, then read out the hex popup, or something like that. Actually, I'm warming to the mouse idea, but would be open to suggestions. Sorry, just kicking ideas around here.

OK, that's enough for now. Apologies for the long reply. Happy to expand on any of these points further.
Techfreak102 [OP] 1 points 2y ago
Those tips are super helpful. I really like your hex-key idea for moving around the map since I’m all about the keyboard, and that’s yet another thing I wouldn’t have considered. I’m decently familiar with Lua thanks to a brief addiction to a mod called ComputerCraft in MineCraft, so it shouldn’t be too hard to pick it up and start working.

Would something like directional audio queues also be helpful in the hex key framework, or is that “too much?” In case the key gets hit unknowingly or your hand is on the keyboard skewed, whenever you hit a direction you could get a “North,” “South,” “Northeast,” “Southwest,” etc. from the narrator. I really don’t know what sort of audio queues are common for blind players, cause like I said, I’m kind of dumb about this lol

Also, what screen reader do you use? My desktop is running Linux, so I can use Orca, but my laptop has Windows so I can use NVDA there. And is there anything I should watch out for when setting up a screen reader for in-game? I’m going to try and use it as much as possible so I can identify what information it isn’t able to scrape properly.

Thanks so much for all your help and input!
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