Blind and Visually Impaired Community
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Anyone wish point of sale machines were accessible? (self.Blind)
submitted by siriuslylupin6
You walk in to a store and buy a gallon of milk and 2 dozens of eggs or whatever you want cheese and pineapple. You go over to the line to pay for your item. Cashier says hi and scans in your item like everyone else but unlike everyone else a sighted person inserts their card and the reader asks them debit or credit they quietly choose if credit or other things they choose it then pay or pay in cash. Okay great get out of the super market. Or even self check out some of them talk to some extent but if you touch the screen it doesn’t then talk to you and the options or anything like that. So nope can’t use self-check out as blind person. Or the point of sale machines. The cashier has to ask debit or credit? You say whatever and it goes through maybe need to insert a pin. But then the sighted person has peace of mind because they can see transaction complete or whatever it says but the cashier has to tell you okay it went through or whatever. Don’t you wish you can do some of this yourself? Wouldn’t it be cool if point of sale machines could speak or self check out and every menu option.do you want a bag for self check out you can reach out to the screen and tap yes.
How about accessible cash registers so blind people can be cashiers at grocery chains
How about accessible cash registers so blind people can be cashiers at grocery chains
robbie253 6 points 2y ago
I agree fully. There are plenty of times that Ci would love to use self checkout but there are not designed for the visually impaired in mind. I use Apple Pay on my phone or watch for the point of sale transactions and that Works great great but I generally have to inquire about the total. One of my frustrations is using the debit/credit machines when you are getting a service where giving a tip is expected and I just can’t tap and have to physically enter information. I try to have cash on hand for those situations. It can be intimidating at times.
siriuslylupin6 [OP] 1 points 2y ago
Or not tipping there’s option for tips do you include one? They ask like okay so how much tip do you want to give? Uh... no I don’t but I try to be nice but it’s kind of awkward and sound super impolite saying no tip. Haha!
jackishungryforpizza 2 points 2y ago
It is impolite not to tip.
Hellsacomin94 4 points 2y ago
It depends. If I’m at a fast casual resteraunt where I wait in line to order, carry my food, and get my drink, why would I tip?
siriuslylupin6 [OP] 1 points 2y ago
It probably is, It’s almost like social custom but sometimes excuse is I don’t have that much to begin with.
retrolental_morose 5 points 2y ago
UK. I assume wavepay is similar to our contactless, which is very popular here. I've never been asked whether I am doing debit or credit, whether it's something our machines pick up by themselves or casheers judge based on the looks of the cards I don't know. There are accessible epos systems, not that touchscreens are ever going to be as intuitive as button-based systems for the totally blind but there has been research done on it
vwlsmssng 2 points 2y ago
Whereas in the UK we have separate bank cards for credit cards and debit cards, in the USA you can have one card and the machine asks if you want it to be a debit or credit transaction.
Where have you seen accessible EPOS systems in the UK? I'm usually helping someone with using the checkouts but if I can show them how to use the checkouts themselves that would be progress.
Where have you seen accessible EPOS systems in the UK? I'm usually helping someone with using the checkouts but if I can show them how to use the checkouts themselves that would be progress.
siriuslylupin6 [OP] 2 points 2y ago
Oh I was wondering if there ever was. But that’s neat.
Yeah, we don’t have that here not used widely if we do. At all. But interesting.... that is what happen most times maybe we’re behind? Not sure.
Yeah, we don’t have that here not used widely if we do. At all. But interesting.... that is what happen most times maybe we’re behind? Not sure.
GoneVision 3 points 2y ago
This issue is going to have to be resolved with lawsuits, and in the courts, like the issue of inaccessible ATM machines was in the past. It’s not something that business is going to do for us out of the generosity of their hearts. It cost them money, therefore we get a big fuck you, until a judge gives a corporation an even bigger fuck you. Sad, but that’s the way the world works.
Rethunker 1 points 2y ago
u/GoneVision, I think another option is for small businesses to addresses the issue by bringing accessibility to machines that lack it. At least that's my plan.
An advisor and friend of mine familiar with legislation related to accessibility is not confident that legislation will lead to changes soon. Although my knowledge of proposed legislation is limited, the most promising could take many years to go into effect. In the meantime people need to use these P.O.S. systems. And even if a law is passed, some companies may wait to be sued until they make changes, and then possibly settle. And I don't like to imagine what quality of accessible interface would arise from that.
So the solution I'm working on provides a consistent interface to you via an app on your phone. We're working on accommodating other interfaces during the beta phase of app release, but making the app functional with point of sales machines is part of the development plan.
An advisor and friend of mine familiar with legislation related to accessibility is not confident that legislation will lead to changes soon. Although my knowledge of proposed legislation is limited, the most promising could take many years to go into effect. In the meantime people need to use these P.O.S. systems. And even if a law is passed, some companies may wait to be sued until they make changes, and then possibly settle. And I don't like to imagine what quality of accessible interface would arise from that.
So the solution I'm working on provides a consistent interface to you via an app on your phone. We're working on accommodating other interfaces during the beta phase of app release, but making the app functional with point of sales machines is part of the development plan.
siriuslylupin6 [OP] 1 points 2y ago
Interesting probably. That’s a good point. Hopefully someday it will be resolved.
meeowth 3 points 2y ago
I haven't used self service in a while but here in my part of Australia I wave my card in front of the eftpos machine and it beeps when done. No button pressing.
siriuslylupin6 [OP] 1 points 2y ago
That actually sounds kind of neat. It would be cool if it says what it actually displayed on the screen though haha!
meeowth 2 points 2y ago
Took a while to learn where to wave the card based on the model of machine. Only recently realised there's a symbol showing where the paywave is on the machine, but it always ends up being in the screen or in a bump to the side of the screen.
siriuslylupin6 [OP] 1 points 2y ago
Hmm... interesting..... again visual haha! Interesting though. But yeah.... sounds fascinating though. You usually have to insert then press a bunch of buttons.
vwlsmssng 1 points 2y ago
> You usually have to insert then press a bunch of buttons.
It's called contactless payment. Like Apple Pay but built into your bank card. We have it in the UK too. It has become really popular during the pandemic because you don't touch anything someone else has touched. To encourage people to use it they raised the limit last spring to £45 (from £30). Every now and then the machine will insist you use the Chip & PIN method to make sure it is still you holding your card.
It's called contactless payment. Like Apple Pay but built into your bank card. We have it in the UK too. It has become really popular during the pandemic because you don't touch anything someone else has touched. To encourage people to use it they raised the limit last spring to £45 (from £30). Every now and then the machine will insist you use the Chip & PIN method to make sure it is still you holding your card.
Rethunker 2 points 2y ago
Making point of sale machines accessible is one of the goals of the app my company is developing.
Though I'll certainly be interested in finding testers when the app is ready to work with point of sale machines, I don't want to overstep my welcome in the forum. The app's only going into beta now, and the intention is to make other interfaces accessible before we turn our attention to point of sale machines. That said, I'll mention some ideas and opinions that have come up in meetings. Half of my team is blind, so personal stories about inaccessible tech are easy to come by.
First, it seems that if we wait for accessibility to be engineered into point of sale machines in countries like the U.S., we'll be waiting for years. Legislation and/or lawsuits could accelerate the rate at which point of sale machines are made accessible. Apps supporting contactless pay have become more widespread, thankfully, but the availability of accessible point of sale machines is spotty. In my experience, it depends a lot on what city or town you're in. You might even have an entirely different pay experience in two neighboring shops.
Cheers to the countries that have actual or de facto standards for contactless payment. But even if you live in one of these countries, using point of sale machines could be a pain once you travel internationally (once that's feasible again).
A device that is accessible to a hearing person may be completely inaccessible to a DeafBlind person. So "accessible" should encompass as many people as possible, and allow for different modes of feedback.
And as I like to say, there's a difference between accessibility and usability. There are a lot of good, dedicated engineers out there working hard to make machines accessible. And then there are the people who actually make the machines we use every day. (Ha ha.)
So this leads me to some design principles that I hope make sense. I'd be more than happy to find out I'm off base on any of these, assuming anyone has even read this far:
* Given the spotty availability of accessible point of sale machines in many countries, it would be handy if some portable tech could make existing machines accessible. And by "portable" that means a phone app, a wearable, or some other gadget worth its price. In other words, rather than engineer the point of sale machine to be accessible, bring accessibility to an existing machine.
* One way to make a point of sale machine accessible would be to provide guidance in the moment, explaining what physical or virtual buttons are available, and then actually guiding someone from button to button.
* Guidance should depend on context. In some cases the user may just need to get oriented to the layout of the buttons on the machine. For some point of sale machines, step-by-step guidance may be preferable.
* Privacy and security are concerns. An app or device providing audio feedback could give instructions to someone privately over ear buds or headphones. But if the app or device uses a camera to take snapshots or acquire video of a point of sale machine as someone uses it, or if the app stores a user's credit card info, then that information must be kept secure.
* Liability is another issue. If a financial transaction goes wrong and leads to an overbilling, could the app developer be held responsible? (You can imagine why this one strikes me as worth thinking about.)
* It'd be nice if the device or app could work without a WiFi or cell connection. That is, it shouldn't require access to a remote operator, remote database, or other online service.
* For general use the app or device would have to accommodate huge variety in machine design, and not guarantee compatibility with any and all machines under all conditions. However, if some particular model of a point of sale machine is in widespread use, but is inaccessible, then an app or device could be tailored to make that particular point of sale machine accessible.
* And finally, is the tech solution affordable? What tech would strike the optimal balance between price, functionality, and ease of use?
Though I'll certainly be interested in finding testers when the app is ready to work with point of sale machines, I don't want to overstep my welcome in the forum. The app's only going into beta now, and the intention is to make other interfaces accessible before we turn our attention to point of sale machines. That said, I'll mention some ideas and opinions that have come up in meetings. Half of my team is blind, so personal stories about inaccessible tech are easy to come by.
First, it seems that if we wait for accessibility to be engineered into point of sale machines in countries like the U.S., we'll be waiting for years. Legislation and/or lawsuits could accelerate the rate at which point of sale machines are made accessible. Apps supporting contactless pay have become more widespread, thankfully, but the availability of accessible point of sale machines is spotty. In my experience, it depends a lot on what city or town you're in. You might even have an entirely different pay experience in two neighboring shops.
Cheers to the countries that have actual or de facto standards for contactless payment. But even if you live in one of these countries, using point of sale machines could be a pain once you travel internationally (once that's feasible again).
A device that is accessible to a hearing person may be completely inaccessible to a DeafBlind person. So "accessible" should encompass as many people as possible, and allow for different modes of feedback.
And as I like to say, there's a difference between accessibility and usability. There are a lot of good, dedicated engineers out there working hard to make machines accessible. And then there are the people who actually make the machines we use every day. (Ha ha.)
So this leads me to some design principles that I hope make sense. I'd be more than happy to find out I'm off base on any of these, assuming anyone has even read this far:
* Given the spotty availability of accessible point of sale machines in many countries, it would be handy if some portable tech could make existing machines accessible. And by "portable" that means a phone app, a wearable, or some other gadget worth its price. In other words, rather than engineer the point of sale machine to be accessible, bring accessibility to an existing machine.
* One way to make a point of sale machine accessible would be to provide guidance in the moment, explaining what physical or virtual buttons are available, and then actually guiding someone from button to button.
* Guidance should depend on context. In some cases the user may just need to get oriented to the layout of the buttons on the machine. For some point of sale machines, step-by-step guidance may be preferable.
* Privacy and security are concerns. An app or device providing audio feedback could give instructions to someone privately over ear buds or headphones. But if the app or device uses a camera to take snapshots or acquire video of a point of sale machine as someone uses it, or if the app stores a user's credit card info, then that information must be kept secure.
* Liability is another issue. If a financial transaction goes wrong and leads to an overbilling, could the app developer be held responsible? (You can imagine why this one strikes me as worth thinking about.)
* It'd be nice if the device or app could work without a WiFi or cell connection. That is, it shouldn't require access to a remote operator, remote database, or other online service.
* For general use the app or device would have to accommodate huge variety in machine design, and not guarantee compatibility with any and all machines under all conditions. However, if some particular model of a point of sale machine is in widespread use, but is inaccessible, then an app or device could be tailored to make that particular point of sale machine accessible.
* And finally, is the tech solution affordable? What tech would strike the optimal balance between price, functionality, and ease of use?
siriuslylupin6 [OP] 2 points 2y ago
How about if the buttons were on screen buttons then how would say a person be guided to use them what if they pressed the wrong button or would they press the button on the app and things would work?
Rethunker 1 points 2y ago
u/siriuslylupin6, there are a few solutions to making a flat touch screen accessible. Flat touch screens and flat control panels include capacitive screens that react as soon as you touch them. Our oven at home is like that: it starts registering touches as soon as a finger touches it, and sometimes even starts registering a touch when a finger hovers very close but doesn't quite make contact.
This past year my team and I conducted tests of feedback methods to guide the user to press one button and then the other on a touch screen. Half the team is blind, with a disproportionate number of those being totally blind. We narrowed down the list of feedback methods, but determining what really works will depend on reaching a broader group of testers. If you might be interested in joining such a test group, please send me a private message here on Reddit.
We're also testing input and feedback methods that would work for at least some of the DeafBlind community. Thus we won't be limiting ourselves to an audio-only interface.
As far as guidance is concerned, you mention the two main options. The first option is to have the app guide someone for some machine. That's our current path since it requires no cooperation from the manufacturer, and is meant to work with the largest possible variety of machines, especially machines too old or too expensive to ever be upgraded with accessibility features.
The second option is to have the user interact with the app, and then the app sends commands to the machine. This would almost certainly require working with the manufacturer of the machine, and they may want control of any such app. Another possibility is to have the app interface with 3rd party software that can connect to the machine, in which case the app's main responsibility would be to make the interface accessible.
How someone recovers from pressing a wrong button will depend largely on the design of the point of sale machine itself. The intention of the app is to provide guidance for whatever is currently on screen. Thus someone using the app would have the same information that a sighted person would have by looking at the screen. However, we have an advantage with an app: in some cases, the app can provide additional pointers about what to do next. Although I'm sighted, I still get frustrated using some touch screen interfaces because the interaction design is poor. So I plan to use this app, too, to help or remind me how to navigate various interfaces.
There are academic papers about methods for making touch screen interfaces accessible to the blind. Some methods proposed rely on some kind of interaction or involvement of sighted people, whereas my team and I think the best implementation would be fully automated.
For flat touch screens in general, and for capacitive touch screens that react as soon as a finger touches them, my team and I will be testing a few different techniques, and I'm not sure which techniques will work best.
Some screens require contact with a real finger--using a pen or a gloved hand won't work. In those cases a handheld accessory could be used to trigger whatever button the app guides you to. But then the concern is that someone has to buy the accessory, keep it on their person, and so on. Maybe that's acceptable.
In short, there's a lot of testing yet to do before we're confident that our app and maybe some affordable accessories make point of sale machines and other interfaces accessible, and in a way that's effective, affordable, and doesn't required much training.
This past year my team and I conducted tests of feedback methods to guide the user to press one button and then the other on a touch screen. Half the team is blind, with a disproportionate number of those being totally blind. We narrowed down the list of feedback methods, but determining what really works will depend on reaching a broader group of testers. If you might be interested in joining such a test group, please send me a private message here on Reddit.
We're also testing input and feedback methods that would work for at least some of the DeafBlind community. Thus we won't be limiting ourselves to an audio-only interface.
As far as guidance is concerned, you mention the two main options. The first option is to have the app guide someone for some machine. That's our current path since it requires no cooperation from the manufacturer, and is meant to work with the largest possible variety of machines, especially machines too old or too expensive to ever be upgraded with accessibility features.
The second option is to have the user interact with the app, and then the app sends commands to the machine. This would almost certainly require working with the manufacturer of the machine, and they may want control of any such app. Another possibility is to have the app interface with 3rd party software that can connect to the machine, in which case the app's main responsibility would be to make the interface accessible.
How someone recovers from pressing a wrong button will depend largely on the design of the point of sale machine itself. The intention of the app is to provide guidance for whatever is currently on screen. Thus someone using the app would have the same information that a sighted person would have by looking at the screen. However, we have an advantage with an app: in some cases, the app can provide additional pointers about what to do next. Although I'm sighted, I still get frustrated using some touch screen interfaces because the interaction design is poor. So I plan to use this app, too, to help or remind me how to navigate various interfaces.
There are academic papers about methods for making touch screen interfaces accessible to the blind. Some methods proposed rely on some kind of interaction or involvement of sighted people, whereas my team and I think the best implementation would be fully automated.
For flat touch screens in general, and for capacitive touch screens that react as soon as a finger touches them, my team and I will be testing a few different techniques, and I'm not sure which techniques will work best.
Some screens require contact with a real finger--using a pen or a gloved hand won't work. In those cases a handheld accessory could be used to trigger whatever button the app guides you to. But then the concern is that someone has to buy the accessory, keep it on their person, and so on. Maybe that's acceptable.
In short, there's a lot of testing yet to do before we're confident that our app and maybe some affordable accessories make point of sale machines and other interfaces accessible, and in a way that's effective, affordable, and doesn't required much training.
siriuslylupin6 [OP] 1 points 2y ago
Fascinating. Well I hope it works out if it does I would be quite interested to beta and help. I also think if you just make the ddarn thing speak it’d be so much easier. But okay especially touch screens.
Rethunker 1 points 2y ago
I’ll send you a private message here on Reddit so that we can exchange contact info.
cyclops32 2 points 2y ago
Spot on with your comments. You only left one out.
The line of people waiting behind you while you orientate yourself to the machine, listen to audio feedback or some other kind of feedback, run your cards through the machine, and get on your way.
Here in the US there are different cards you may need to run through the machine to complete one transaction. For example food stamp cards, or other assistances cards.
The line of people waiting behind you while you orientate yourself to the machine, listen to audio feedback or some other kind of feedback, run your cards through the machine, and get on your way.
Here in the US there are different cards you may need to run through the machine to complete one transaction. For example food stamp cards, or other assistances cards.
siriuslylupin6 [OP] 2 points 2y ago
Interesting point for sure.
Rethunker 1 points 2y ago
Good point. An advisor and friend mentioned feeling self-conscious about holding up the line.
Granted, anyone in line can take more time, but someone having to get oriented to some machine and figure out how it works would likely feel social pressure. That they would feel such pressure is itself a problem.
My hope is that having a consistent interface—the app on the phone—would make it more straightforward to interact with each new machine.
Our phones are pricey suckers, and I figure we can squeeze enough functionality out of them to justify the cost.
Granted, anyone in line can take more time, but someone having to get oriented to some machine and figure out how it works would likely feel social pressure. That they would feel such pressure is itself a problem.
My hope is that having a consistent interface—the app on the phone—would make it more straightforward to interact with each new machine.
Our phones are pricey suckers, and I figure we can squeeze enough functionality out of them to justify the cost.
blackberrybunny 2 points 2y ago
This is where I love my Apple credit card even more! It has nothing printed on it except for my name. No account numbers. Just a solid flat piece of metal, with a chip in it. I don't have to choose credit or debit when I use it. Just slip it into the machine, and voila! It immediately shows the transaction on my iphone. I am IN LOVE with this Apple card!! I highly recommend.
siriuslylupin6 [OP] 2 points 2y ago
Hmm.... interesting.....
Rethunker 1 points 2y ago
u/blackberrybunny, are there any places that you visit that don't currently accept the Apple card? It sounds like it addresses a lot of issues.
blackberrybunny 2 points 2y ago
I haven't ran into any places that don't accept it. Any place that takes visa, mastercard, etc., will take the apple card, which is a mastercard.
DrillInstructorJan 2 points 2y ago
Can just about use tesco self check out here. Wave groceries in front of the thing until it bleeps, then hit the pay now button which is almost at the bottom right of the touch screen, then wave card near reader. You can work it out. Finding the side of the package with the barcode on it is a bitch but you can start to remember.
Just don't go to the card only ones, because they remind you that you can only use card not cash, and you have to hit the OK button which is floating somewhere in the middle of the screen.
Just don't go to the card only ones, because they remind you that you can only use card not cash, and you have to hit the OK button which is floating somewhere in the middle of the screen.
siriuslylupin6 [OP] 1 points 2y ago
Interesting where are you from anyway that’s interesting it would still be cool if these things do indeed talk though haha!
DrillInstructorJan 1 points 2y ago
I'm in the UK but very similar machines exist in the USA, they're basically identical. They could easily talk, they're just Windows based computers inside. Actually I'm not sure if they maybe can talk but it's never been obvious to me or my sighted boyfriend if so.
siriuslylupin6 [OP] 1 points 2y ago
Is that so? Interesting I didn’t know what was running in there. But that’s fascinating. Thanks for the info. Should definitely be accessible then or made accessible but yeah. If it’s that easy at least.
Otamaboya 2 points 2y ago
This is so right on. What gets me is the seemingly infinite variety of POS systems. At my regular grocery store, at least I can get used to the system they have. But any time I go to a new place, it's always like "Oh, yet another variety of payment system! What does this one want me to do? Where does my card go? Will it make a noise to let me know the transaction went through?"
Rethunker 1 points 2y ago
Do you have a favorite POS system interface?
A later version of the app I'm developing is meant to address the different interfaces for POS systems by presenting you with one consistent interface through your phone. Thus the app would handle the variability in different systems, and you would be presented with a consistent set of questions about what you want to do next.
An interface is intuitive, so to speak, simply because it's familiar. We're not born knowing VoiceOver, Braille, QWERTY keyboards, or any of that. So in my mind a key to providing a tech solution is ensuring that the interface is consistent, doesn't require much practice to use, and provides just the information you need to get done what you want to do.
A later version of the app I'm developing is meant to address the different interfaces for POS systems by presenting you with one consistent interface through your phone. Thus the app would handle the variability in different systems, and you would be presented with a consistent set of questions about what you want to do next.
An interface is intuitive, so to speak, simply because it's familiar. We're not born knowing VoiceOver, Braille, QWERTY keyboards, or any of that. So in my mind a key to providing a tech solution is ensuring that the interface is consistent, doesn't require much practice to use, and provides just the information you need to get done what you want to do.
siriuslylupin6 [OP] 1 points 2y ago
Hmm. That’s for sure another problem if they were all speaking maybe it’d be a bit better?
But yeah.
But yeah.
[deleted] 1 points 2y ago
[removed]
CosmicBunny97 1 points 2y ago
Wait, PayWave isn’t a thing there?
siriuslylupin6 [OP] 1 points 2y ago
I’ve never heard of it....
CosmicBunny97 2 points 2y ago
I don’t know where you’re from, but it’s standard here in Australia. You just tap your card and pay, but there’s a $100 limit. Apple Pay (and Google Pay, but I don’t use Android) work well too but you need a bank that supports it and as far as I know it’s limited in America.
siriuslylupin6 [OP] 1 points 2y ago
Sounds neat but I think america is behind on this too also like the limited stuff you’re talking about not standard here if at all. We have that at a train station you tap to get tickets and such but at a market or anything else no....
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