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Blind and Visually Impaired Community

Full History - 2021 - 03 - 15 - ID#m5tr3v
6
A question for the programmers about interviewing (self.Blind)
submitted by codeplaysleep
I have my own opinions on this, but wanted to ask other blind/VI programmers their thoughts.

I work as a senior software engineer for an awesome company. We're in the process of revamping our hiring process and we're adding a live coding component. It's not trick questions or algorithms on a whiteboard or anything like that. It's relevant to the position, fairly short, and reasonable.

That said, when I was hired, I did a little take-home exercise, and I'm realizing now that if I'd been doing the live coding exercise, it would have meant disclosing my blindness earlier in the interviewing process than I typically like to do. This would be true for anyone who uses an alternate method of reading of entering data.

Knowing my company, I'm 100% positive that this would make no difference to them. They knew about my vision loss before my first interview (which I found out some months after I was hired) and they didn't care. I'm not the only person in the company with some chronic condition or disability. It's truly not an issue for them.

However, I know for some people applying, that still may not be super reassuring.

What are your general thoughts on this? How have you handled live coding/whiteboard exercises in the past?
MostlyBlindGamer 4 points 2y ago
You could just give them a box to SSH into.

Years ago I interview for a position over Skype and for the technical portion I was expected to figure out a hand drawn diagram held up to the webcam. That didn't go well.
codeplaysleep [OP] 2 points 2y ago
Oh wow, that's awful, but given that it was for Skype, well.... that just explains so much, really. :D

The general format we're doing is that we do a screen share and they write a small bit of code. However, we do also tell them that they're free to use whatever dev environment/editor/tools/setup they're comfortable in (we don't care what tools our devs use). We're trying to avoid forcing them into some potentially inaccessible or unfamiliar coding environment (we looked at products like $1 and ruled them out).

My personal feelings on it are that while I don't typically like to disclose my vision loss until I get an offer (if I need any accommodations - if I don't, I might not mention it at all), as long as I can do the exercise with a setup that works for me, then it's generally fine.

I wouldn't want to work with a company that doesn't want to hire me because of my blindness. But I also know that interviews are competitive so I'd rather not disclose it right away, until I've had a chance to make a little headway into the process and have begun to establish a relationship with the people.
MostlyBlindGamer 2 points 2y ago
I mean the interview was conducted over a Skype video call.

Why not share a Google Docs file with the spec? I can zoom in on a screen share, but somebody who's totally blind can't.

I just switched from RDPing into my Windows dev machine to using VS Code over SSH and couldn't be happier. I need text to flow between the machines, not pixels, right?
zersiax 2 points 2y ago
The whole when-to-disclose question is one I think on a lot when I look for a job. Generally, I feel out the company during a first conversation over the phone / a zoom call / things like that. If they themselves bring up accessibility, that is a good time to disclose. If they don't, I generally wait until I generally don't have another choice:

​

\- When I have to come in physically. I have a guide dog, so dog allergies can be a thing, and not heeding those isn't a good idea when coming in for a first impression.

\- When I have to do some kind of assessment, exercise or assignment that has a completely flow-breaking accessibility issue. Think visual logic puzzles, working over RDP etc.

​

This may be a Netherlands thing but generally interviews here are staged. First stage tends to just be an intro between the applicant and the rep from the company, and after that they decide if they give you a take-home exercise, or some kind of live coding thing. I've found that if I get to that second stage, they already have a good feeling about me and it therefore becomes easier to disclose, but then, I'm a developer, and a lot of people will have already figured it out by then as they would have googled me and I don't make a secret of me being a blind developer :)

I have never actually had it happen that no accommodation could be made once that happened, save for one company which ad a standardized assessment throughout their entire multinational infrastructure.

So ...I've done exercises at home, coded in front of a live audience, and if whiteboarding needed doing, what I would generally do is describe the process verbally and have someone draw out what I needed them to draw while I was speaking. This tends to work reasonably well.

All that is a really long-winded way of saying, I don't think the process of OP would inconvenience me all that much given I can still use my tools the way I can do best. It's quite a bit better than, say, a lot of proctored certification exams where you are far more limited in what you can and cannot use, for example.
ismokedwithyourmom 1 points 2y ago
Hi, I don't have an answer but just want to say thank you for inadvertently contributing to my company's hiring policy. My team was recently discussing whether we should include a live coding exercise in our interview process or not. Nobody considered how this would affect candidates with disabilities so I'm glad that I came across your post!
[deleted] 1 points 2y ago
[deleted]
CloudyBeep 2 points 2y ago
Blind people work in other areas. I think the OP is asking about general programming jobs.
codeplaysleep [OP] 1 points 2y ago
Yeah, I think there definitely are roles where that would be a benefit. I'm not sure about the specifics of hiring for it. You'd want to hire for anyone who has those skills, VI/blind or not - though your candidate pool is certainly more likely to include VI/blind people. Hiring testers and QA folks with specific skillsets isn't uncommon. I just don't think you can list "being blind" as one of them.

It's not super applicable to what I'm doing right now, though.
[deleted] 1 points 2y ago
[deleted]
MostlyBlindGamer 1 points 2y ago
You want people with a certain set of skills and with relevant experience. Ask for that. Chances are candidates who match those will be VI.

Lots of companies make it clear they are "equal opportunity employers."
codeplaysleep [OP] 1 points 2y ago
> If there were issues with blind people/VI people not being hired or needing an employment track I feel like there are so many opportunities in my industry. Or at least there should be.

Yeah, I'll definitely agree with you on that.
Fridux -3 points 2y ago
I haven't worked ever since I went totally blind, but before losing my sight I had no problem with those even though I only had 10% of vision, and I've always disclosed my disability upfront. If I'm applying to a position that means I'm able enough to perform that position without any accommodations, otherwise I just don't apply, which is why I don't work anymore.

I think that the expectation that society should adapt to accommodate the disabled is wrong, as my disability is no one else's problem, so no one else should be burdened by it. It's true that I benefit from a disability income that in my case is more than enough for my needs, but I only do so with a clear consciousness because society doesn't grant me the option to terminate my own life safely.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not depressed or anything, and as a matter of fact I'm actually happy the way I am, but I do recognize that one way or another I can't avoid being a burden to society due to my disability, therefore my existence is not justified.
CloudyBeep 4 points 2y ago
Some would argue that your capacity to work makes you valuable to society and that disability payments should be reserved for those who truly cannot work. If the revenue you can bring to a company exceeds the cost of any accommodations that might need to be made for you, your employment is justified.
Fridux 0 points 2y ago
There's no way to balance that though. The material accommodations are easy to judge, but the human accommodations are not. I might have it fairly easy when it comes to writing code but not when it comes to reading other people's as they aren't likely to follow the naming conventions and programming style that I need in order to be productive. A single blind programmer would force an entire team to adapt to them in order to be productive enough to justify a minimum wage, which is where the problem lies. The fact that most people would rather look elsewhere than hire a blind developer demonstrates that society in general considers it too much of a burden. Even if that stems mostly from a preconceived idea, I don't want to work with people who are unwilling to adapt to my special needs..
codeplaysleep [OP] 5 points 2y ago
So much of what you've written here and in your previous post is simply untrue, but I can tell from your attitude that there's no point arguing with you on it. Enjoy my tax dollars.
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