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Full History - 2021 - 03 - 21 - ID#m9u82r
9
Diagrams rendered as SVG. What can screen readers make of them? (self.Blind)
submitted by paul_h
I've a diagram about estimation for software development teams using an agile methodology. URL: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/gist/paul-hammant/156401f734f0083bce230f35811c0e61/raw/3a82d8b49ad3186b18b6d6c964fe7f291346aed9/estimation\_crt.svg

Cos there's not a lot of choice for easy image hosting of SVG without that being a PNG as it's served up, I'm using GitHub's gist facility. GitHub being the development industry's favorite portal for code. Allegedly. There's boxes with text in that pic. There's lines too (with text). There's two separate diagrams there. One there left is a larger one in black. On the right a smaller one in red.

Being sighted, I can go into this with the inspector tool and see it all broken down. I know it's imperfect as my design tool (OmniGraffle) has laid own a word-wrap two line box's text as two separate <tspan> elements. they happen to be very close together so it looks good from a sighted point of view, but I've no idea if screen readers can peer into SVG that well for end users.

Comments?
zersiax 2 points 2y ago
u/paul_h the DOM is used by screenreaders, but purely in a programmatic sense,no positional information in the DOM as CSS is ignored for the most part.

I'll admit I'm not super up to date on how SVG works; not sure if you can attach alt="" to particular portions of the SVG. Your SVG's output for a screenreader is:

\> we can’t easily do capacity planning

we are not accurate with our story estimates

our average story size is large and difficult to estimate accurately

technologies we use do not lend themselves to small story sizes

other reasons

each iteration has a large variance for completed work vs others

(we’re a no iterations team)

our average story size is too close to our iteration length

we can’t easily do release commitments

technologies we use do not lend themselves to small story sizes

we can’t easily do capacity planning

because

because

and because

because

because

or because

and/or because

because

because

&#x200B;

As you can see, we have all the text, but none of the individual relationships. They can be inferred, but not without room for error..

I'm not sure why you keep referring to PNG images? those don't work with screenreaders either unless you give them an alt attribute :)
paul_h [OP] 1 points 2y ago
I was referring to PNGs as there was a possibility that OCR would be hooked up and working for a high contrast text on single color background.

In the next generation we'd see AI also tell you what it is seeing "box with 'other reasons' as its text" and "arrow from 'x' to 'y' with 'because' placed over it". Demonstrated (but never put live) in 2018 - $1 \- a distributed computing utilization to describe objects in English from a live video feed.
BlakeBlues 2 points 2y ago
OCR can read the text, but it will read it sporadically and possibly in an incorrect order because of the spacing. You could write a description, like a decision tree. (e.g. 1 splits into 2a and 2b. 2a splits into 3a and 3b. 2b splits into 3c and 3d. 3a splits into 4a and 4b. 3b stops. 3c stops. 3d splits into 4c and 4d.)
paul_h [OP] 1 points 2y ago
So screen readers don’t use the DOM for extra intel? There should be no difference in this diagram than if it were a PNG?
BlakeBlues 1 points 2y ago
They do use DOM, but I'm not sure to what extent for graphics like this. Let me check to see if I can read it with them. I will update you soon. It's not often that I work with this file type or PNGs
paul_h [OP] 2 points 2y ago
There's a possibility that some JQuery could post-process SVG inlined into HTML to add extra annotations like "arrow from A to B". I love the tool I make SVG with (OmniGraffle). In fact it's the last application that keeps me on the Mac, else I'd wholly move to Ubuntu. Omnigraffle writes noisy SVG though. That doesn't matter so much for the sighted, but this could be a whole new world for the people that can't see so well.
BlakeBlues 1 points 2y ago
It is could also be written like this:

1.

2a

3a

3b

2b

3c

3d
paul_h [OP] 1 points 2y ago
That’s extremely close to the ‘dot’ language popularized with graphviz a couple of decades back.
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