Blind and Visually Impaired Community
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developing accessibility tools, need some personal ınput (self.Blind)
submitted by mashed---potatoes
My friend wants to develop some accessibility tools for BVI and I am helping her with the coding. We are both sighted however we did our research and we just want some feedback from actual people. Dear mods, if this post sounds familiar it is because my friend tried to start this discussion on her new account which got shadow banned by reddit for some reason. Quoting her:
"Months ago I set up my old iPhone for the use of visually impaired and tried to use it without sight. I have to say the first issue that I faced was websites that are not compatible with screen readers at all, it was honestly frustrating and I wanted to do something about it. For now I will focus on online shopping websites since (from what I've seen on Youtube) it seems to be the biggest issue for BVI. Right now I have a few solutions in mind. I would love some input based on your preferences; which of these do you think would be the most effective for use online, and especially for online shopping:
1. Having a mode you can turn on if you are BVI so the website layout, contrasts etc. changes for easier use.
2. Having a google chrome extension that reads the data from the website and puts it in a format that is compatible with accessibility tools.
3. Having a mobile app that does the same as 2.
So far I have a few ideas on what needs to be fixed from using my phone without sight and also from youtubers that I watch, but if you have any extra input or suggestions please leave them below! Thank you for your time"
"Months ago I set up my old iPhone for the use of visually impaired and tried to use it without sight. I have to say the first issue that I faced was websites that are not compatible with screen readers at all, it was honestly frustrating and I wanted to do something about it. For now I will focus on online shopping websites since (from what I've seen on Youtube) it seems to be the biggest issue for BVI. Right now I have a few solutions in mind. I would love some input based on your preferences; which of these do you think would be the most effective for use online, and especially for online shopping:
1. Having a mode you can turn on if you are BVI so the website layout, contrasts etc. changes for easier use.
2. Having a google chrome extension that reads the data from the website and puts it in a format that is compatible with accessibility tools.
3. Having a mobile app that does the same as 2.
So far I have a few ideas on what needs to be fixed from using my phone without sight and also from youtubers that I watch, but if you have any extra input or suggestions please leave them below! Thank you for your time"
zersiax 4 points 2y ago
This idea is a little all over the place, but let me try to respond somewhat comprehensively.
First, it would be good to know what is meant by websites that are "not compatible" with accessibility tools. What were you trying to do, what happened when you tried, and what did you expect to happen instead? If we know a bit more about the method that was used to determine something didn't work, it'll be easier to suggest alternatives.
As for the ideas:
​
1. Dedicated accessibility modes for websites certainly exist. Sometimes they work well, other times they make it worse. Indeed, the whole point of AccessiBe is essentially to create an overlay that makes a website more accessible and in their case, it rarely actually works well. My comment may be removed because of me saying that. Oh well, we'll see :P
2. There are a few problems with this approach; mainly the fact that this adds quite a bit of overhead for a developer team to essentially maintain two interfaces at once, because you can never really automate all of this properly. As a result, what often happens is that the accessible version may lag behind or may stop working for quite some time before it gets fixed, which ultimately doesn't help anybody.
1. 2. and 3. essentially are the same thing in different formats, and there's absolutely something to be said for creating a simplified interface for certain websites or stores. A chrome extension would only really work on the pc, while an app would only work on smartphones unless it's cross-platform, so which of the two would depend on what device you want to target.
First, it would be good to know what is meant by websites that are "not compatible" with accessibility tools. What were you trying to do, what happened when you tried, and what did you expect to happen instead? If we know a bit more about the method that was used to determine something didn't work, it'll be easier to suggest alternatives.
As for the ideas:
​
1. Dedicated accessibility modes for websites certainly exist. Sometimes they work well, other times they make it worse. Indeed, the whole point of AccessiBe is essentially to create an overlay that makes a website more accessible and in their case, it rarely actually works well. My comment may be removed because of me saying that. Oh well, we'll see :P
2. There are a few problems with this approach; mainly the fact that this adds quite a bit of overhead for a developer team to essentially maintain two interfaces at once, because you can never really automate all of this properly. As a result, what often happens is that the accessible version may lag behind or may stop working for quite some time before it gets fixed, which ultimately doesn't help anybody.
1. 2. and 3. essentially are the same thing in different formats, and there's absolutely something to be said for creating a simplified interface for certain websites or stores. A chrome extension would only really work on the pc, while an app would only work on smartphones unless it's cross-platform, so which of the two would depend on what device you want to target.
avicularia_itsnotme 1 points 2y ago
by "not compatible" what I meant was in certain websites the screen reader can't even select the items that are there, such as titles, menus, and in one particular website the Screen Reader couldn't select the X to close pop ups that the website put up for advertisement. In the iOS screen reader I was using, you couldn't click on anything that the screen reader doesn't select, so having those elements that the screen reader can't select is what I'm talking about.
For 2, I know this is a bit over our heads to have one tool for every single website. For now I am focusing on a particular shopping website to see how it would work. I didn't want to name the brand because I wasn't sure if it was allowed.
And for 2.a, I realise they are indeed just the same thing in different formats. I guess what I was asking for was how BVI find these platforms in terms of ease of use, and if there are any strong preferences. Of course I am also looking at data that shows which platforms BVI tend to prefer, but I wanted to have some personal input such as: "I personally prefer using mobile devices for these and these reasons"
Also thank you for your input and major thanks for pointing out the weaknesses in our approach.
For 2, I know this is a bit over our heads to have one tool for every single website. For now I am focusing on a particular shopping website to see how it would work. I didn't want to name the brand because I wasn't sure if it was allowed.
And for 2.a, I realise they are indeed just the same thing in different formats. I guess what I was asking for was how BVI find these platforms in terms of ease of use, and if there are any strong preferences. Of course I am also looking at data that shows which platforms BVI tend to prefer, but I wanted to have some personal input such as: "I personally prefer using mobile devices for these and these reasons"
Also thank you for your input and major thanks for pointing out the weaknesses in our approach.
nullatonce 3 points 2y ago
First of Thank you! second off I'd say contribute to the existing tools like nvda, orca, other screen readers.
And encourage people to use proper HTML tags they can live without that custom checkbox or radio button.
And encourage people to use proper HTML tags they can live without that custom checkbox or radio button.
avicularia_itsnotme 2 points 2y ago
I actually tried to contact a few websites to change some of the problems I noticed, not sure if anything will be done though. Also thank you for bringing up NVDA since now I realise they are open-source and python which is just up my alley!
TBH this project was my idea to add something to my resume while doing something actually useful. I know I'm a little bit in over my head but I wanted to give it a try.
TBH this project was my idea to add something to my resume while doing something actually useful. I know I'm a little bit in over my head but I wanted to give it a try.
avicularia_itsnotme 2 points 2y ago
Also this is why I considered doing a chrome extension as an option because it is available to anyone who wants to contribute.
impablomations 1 points 2y ago
You appear to be shadowbanned, you may wish to contact site Admins about this.
avicularia_itsnotme 1 points 2y ago
I tried contacting them, I guess im still shadowbanned
cuntasauruswithacane 2 points 2y ago
Maybe getting physical descriptions of the items somehow? Like personally something looks one way when I buy it online but then realise I'm missing visual information (for example I ordered jeans and realised they have cargo style pockets too late). Not too sure though!
nullatonce 1 points 2y ago
Well at least now you have space for your.. cargo!
But for real, doesn't nvda (i don't remember the name) have extension for describing images or does it do bad job?
But for real, doesn't nvda (i don't remember the name) have extension for describing images or does it do bad job?
cuntasauruswithacane 2 points 2y ago
Good thing I like the style! 😂 And yes as far as I know (I've used NVDA, Narrator & windows magnifier as primary ones) NVDA can describe images as long as they have background alt text. Sort of like using Alt Text on Instagram. Otherwise the image processing on screen readers is horrible. They don't/can't recognise things.
The most you'll get is "image". Or if you're lucky, "image, may contain a person and a tree"
It's whackamole :)
The most you'll get is "image". Or if you're lucky, "image, may contain a person and a tree"
It's whackamole :)
MostlyBlindGamer 3 points 2y ago
"Image possibly contributing black text on white background" is my personal favorite.
cuntasauruswithacane 2 points 2y ago
Oh god yes. And then you realise said image could say "You're Ugly" and you wouldn't even know
avicularia_itsnotme 1 points 2y ago
I also considered this, but got stuck on the technicalities. Having a few sighted volunteers to describe the items might be good enough. Not sure about how to moderate those volunteers though. But you are right, lots of websites are lacking in item descriptions.
Superfreq2 1 points 2y ago
You guys are awesome for wanting to do this, and while I genuinely don't want to discourage your passion here, I really think we need improvements to the tools people use to make their sites, better knowledge among coders and community enforcement, and stronger regulations.
Look up "universal design" and "Accessibility Culture" for more.
I'm not saying that a browser extension or screen reader addon is a bad idea, it's way better than the alternative short term, but I think it's important to understand the ultimate goal here.
Look up "universal design" and "Accessibility Culture" for more.
I'm not saying that a browser extension or screen reader addon is a bad idea, it's way better than the alternative short term, but I think it's important to understand the ultimate goal here.
MostlyBlindGamer 1 points 2y ago
Are you aware of WCAG?
avicularia_itsnotme 1 points 2y ago
Yes I read the portion of it about BVI and autism too out of interest, and thats also how I realised just how many websites don't follow it in so many ways.
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