Hi, I'm new here and not even sure if posts like these are allowed, but if so here goes.
I am a TVI with a student who is blind currently using Braille Note Touch, but I'm in the process of transitioning him to an iPad with a bluetooth keyboard using Voiceover.
So my question is, and it would be particularly awesome if there were anyone here who are familiar with both, what is your opinion on Voiceover versus a Braille Note? Especially with using math?
The Braille Note has keymath which is pretty awesome for math as long as you are proficient with Nemeth or UEB Braille. I was wondering what anyone's experience might be with performing math tasks such as taking notes using voiceover.
Another issue I'm running into is accessing things from Google classroom such as Google docs and sheets. I understand Google docs are not the most accessible thing for the blind, but I know there are ways around it. I try copying and pasting into another app, like pages, but I can't get pages to cooperate with text either.
Anyway, any feedback would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you!
FaerilyRowanwind5 points1y ago
Hi. TVI here. I wouldn’t move them to an iPad. In this case the touch is the better device. Why the move. iPad won’t even be something they would use in a job later. You’d honestly be better off going with a pc or a Mac with a screen reading program. (I’d say the pc is better)
The Braille note is better. Don’t go iPad. If you are trying to teach keyboarding then you should just do it on a computer in general. It would be wayyyyyyy cheaper and better transition wise because they would gain computer skills for jobs later. And fusion with jaws is available through quota funds so it would just be getting a laptop that would run it effectively. Heck. You could attach that touch as a Braille display to a pc laptop.
Edit. Brailke note will do the math better 100 percent. You may wanna check out an el Braille though. It’s a windows computer attached to a focus 40. Lets you attach a keyboard and a screen and it’s like any other computer. Runs off jaws. Math works pretty legit in both forms. Though the touch is great for higher math. I used it with a student in algebra and geometry it makes the shapes and such and has a graphing calculator. The iPad won’t hold up
DecisionThot [OP]2 points1y ago
Wow thank you for the feedback.. I didn't expect anyone to reply.
Laptop with NVDA was actually my next go-to after Voiceover, we have another student who is blind who uses that setup and she excels with it. She, coincidentally, came from using a braille note. However, she came to me with social / emotional issues, and when something went wrong on the braille note, whether it was user error or device error, she would totally shut down and it would severely affect her academic performance. When I moved her to windows with NVDA, she found it much more user friendly, and she enjoys touch typing far more than braille typing. She won't even touch a braille note now.
So the switch is basically due to the lack of Braille Notes in our district. If and when it breaks, we don't have a backup for it, and Humanware, as helpful as they are, have a very slow turnaround time for repairs. But we have plenty of ipads to go around. That is excellent advice though, especially considering how many questions I still have about voiceover that I haven't found answers to online. I mean, I'm on friggin reddit begging for help lol..
It's so interesting to me how different every student is. I had one student, a girl who was blind, who graduated three years ago and is in her Junior year at university. She swears by voiceover and vehemently persuades others to switch to it, claiming it is where all tech is going. Then I meet people like Peter Tucic at Humanware who is thriving in the professional world with a Braille Note. I actually attended a Braille Note tutorial from him, took a lot of notes, still didn't comprehend a good portion of it but it was fascinating lol.
But it is refreshing to hear from another TVI, and I love that you are confident with your advice, that gives me a lot to think about. I have already asked district for a laptop, I'm on a waiting list but plan on implementing NVDA as soon as I can get my hands on it. The student is a proficient touch typer as well as Braille Typer. He's expressed a desire to switch to touch typing, but he said he is ok with staying with braille too. Your input has definitely reminded me that it is all about what's best for the student, not what's best for the equipment our district has.
I know I just wrote a novel, but if you're still willing to give some more feedback to this comment I would greatly appreciate it.
FaerilyRowanwind3 points1y ago
No worries love to help. When I make decisions I think about what they would need in a work place and an iPad is bottom of the list. Pc with a screen reader is top of the list. He is most likely to need to know how to use a computer. I recommend Braille displays along with computers because it is better to read and listen rather than just listen in terms of comprehension especially while they are in school and especially with the math. But kids make their own choices sometimes and we need to also honor that. I am a firm believer that we get a kid what they need in a district if I have to straight up write it in an IEP to make them do it despite the cost. The worst they can do is fire me abd honestly they would be shooting themselves more in the foot than me because there is no one to replace us with. I’ll answer any questions you ask. My specialty is this stuff I do this for my district
DecisionThot [OP]1 points1y ago
Awesome, awesome, awesome! So when using a laptop with a refreshable braille display, do you type in braille too or do you have the option of reading in braille and using touch typing to enter text? Like when a student would be editing text for an assignment.
I can totally relate to your comment regarding there is no to replace us. No one in my district even comprehends what I do! Lol..
FaerilyRowanwind2 points1y ago
You can do both. There is a Braille input but you can also use your QWERTY keyboard. You can get super cool and get a mantis from aph which is a QWERTY with a Braille display on it also available with quota. But…..a Braille display may be better cause then he can use it as a limited note taker. It’ll let him just use it to take notes without having to pull out his computer and when he puts it into his computer it’ll upload. The brailliant and the focus are good at this.
DecisionThot [OP]1 points1y ago
Did I understand that correctly, the braille note touch has a built-in graphing calculator?
FaerilyRowanwind1 points1y ago
Yes. And can straight up put in algebraic and geometric graphs in picture formate.
DecisionThot [OP]1 points1y ago
How does it do that with one line of braille?
FaerilyRowanwind1 points1y ago
Oh. But you can totally embosser those graphs.
FaerilyRowanwind1 points1y ago
https://youtu.be/b_CezmpCkWI
There is that for the graphs. That said. The Braille note touch plus does more than this
FaerilyRowanwind1 points1y ago
I may be misremembering about the calculator part. One sec
Edit it does have a graphing calculator https://youtu.be/b_CezmpCkWI
FaerilyRowanwind1 points1y ago
It lets you input the info and then puts it in the graph for you you don’t read it as a graph it’s more for your teacher.
retrolental_morose3 points1y ago
Hi,
I'm a TVI from the inside; I was born blind. All of what follows is my opinion, of course, but I've been supporting VI students for a decade and used technology to support me, my wife and sighted daughter for longer than that naturally.
Maximum flexibility is a Braille display of some kind (potentially even a Touch if you already have one) and a computer of some kind (I am a Windows person by preference, but again anything is better than nothing). This is because of a few reasons.
Firstly, the parts are adjustable: Braille display stopped working? Replace it with a cheaper or spare. Computer died? Move your Braille device to another. There is no situation worse than being a day off your doctoral thesis and having your Braillenote flame-out on you with Humanware's turnaround time.
Second, having multiple devices provides you routes around problems. If you happen to have a Braille device on which you can make notes, you can use it away from your computer. If you have to do something you've not done before (editing audio, for instance) doing so on a mainstream platform (mac, windows etc) is far more sensible than learning to use specific software on a specialised device, even if it exists.
And finally interfacing with mainstream technology generally is far preferable. Nothing set me apart further from my sighted peers at college than pulling out a Braille device, but when that device paired to a screen they could see using an app they were familiar with, things became much easier.
To get to a few specifics.
* iPads are far less used than iPhones by braillists. There's no benefit to a larger screen when you can't see, and one of the iPhone's biggest pulls is the range of apps to do things either with GPS or the camera, neither of which works well for the iPad. The interface is almost identical but relying on an iPad without any sight is a recipe to see equipment lying underused in a drawer sooner or later.
* u/annibear is right about Braille being more natural for Math. it may be that the Braillenote is the way forward for writing examination papers and completing tests because of Keymath at high school level. Equally It is unlikely that college level math will be doable with a Braillenote by itself - Keymath is fine for input, but reading things back with any degree of complexity is tricky and it doesn't output in any form of standard notation. If as a blind adult you want to author *any* scientific paper or article, Keymath is not going to be the way you do it.
* u/FaerilyRowanwind mentions quota funds. This is fine as far as it goes, but start with NVDA. JAWS is expensive in the longer term and of the students I have taught perhaps ten percent *need* JAWS for the extra features it has over NVDA. Of those ten percent, at least half are unable to afford JAWS at home, and of the half that do, some begrudge paying constant upgrade and renewal fees.
* you say you're on Reddit begging for help. But to be fair, the people on Reddit in this sub are almost by definition technically competent, so there's that.
* You mention Peter. Have you considered that he's only thriving in the professional world with a Braillenote because of where he works? If I worked for Apple I'd expect to be using a mac. Humanware markets itself very strongly to academics, but I can't think of a single student who has moved away from a Braillenote and regretted it. They're useful, and they were even better as notetakers, but they aren't the Panacea they're made out to be. It's primary-aged kids who get lumped with them where the damage is done and kids have no touch-typing skills that really bothers me.
* One of the key skills outside of school is typing on a touchscreen somehow; Braille screen input, slide-typing, whatever works for your student. If you have time, assess and improve that. it'll help long term.
FaerilyRowanwind2 points1y ago
😆
zersiax2 points1y ago
Overall I agree with this comment, although I will say that there are certainly people who do enjoy the larger real estate of an iPad's screen. It's not necessarily true that the larger screen is not at all useful if you can't see, particularly these days where multitasking is getting some much deserved love through OS updates.
I definitely agree that a computer with a braille display is a far better step forward then an iPad with a bluetooth keyboard, though. Ipads are great for some things, and they will certainly work in a pinch, but will at least for the moment not beat the versatillity that, say, a Windows laptop with NVDA installed would provide.
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As for typing on a touch screen, I am fully blind myself,am a developer, hobby linguist and budding ethical hacker, and I absolutely detest typing on a touch screen. Touch screens are in my opinion inherently hostile to people who can't see the screen when a fine degree of motion is required, in the same way that computer mice and other such pointing devices are hostile.
Don't get me wrong, iOS is absolutely accessible and tries the absolute best it can given the modality it has to work through, but the whole idea of a touch screen is you look, and you touch where you look. For the blind, you painstakingly explore a new screen, try to learn things within that screen so they become muscle memory, or you just flick to the right from element to element until you get to the thing you want, similar to pressing tab on a large web page. It's slow, unproductive and inefficient.
Typing is similarly laggy by design as you first have to find the letter, listen to the click, then the letter being announced, then you either double tap or lift your finger. It works, it most certainly works, but in my opinion it's a pain and comparing how fast a somewhat competent sighted person types on a touch screen with how a tech-savvy blind person pecks out words is somewhat depressing. Somewhat akin to watching someone type with two fingers on a qwerty keyboard, looking down at the letters all the while.
So yes, learning how to type on a touch screen is pretty vital these days, but imho it should never be one's primary way of entering a large amount of text on a touch screen, particularly not for school work. Braille Screen Input (BSI), while awkward, would be a far better candidate for this.
bradley222 points1y ago
I disagree that typing is clunky and that using a touchscreen is inefficient.
There’s the roter for IOS and Talkback actions that can make things faster.
I do agree that typing on a screen for school would be slow but a bluetooth keyboard is cheep these days.
zersiax2 points1y ago
The rotor requires several gestures to get to the right setting, followed by gestures to for example navigate by the selected unit. Switching windows or sometimes even the luck of the draw changes your rotor setting, requiring you to dial it back to where you need it to be. Rotor actions are a great idea but implemented by far too few apps to offset the current issues.
A keyboard user would press one keyboard combination to perform a rotor equivalent, and a sighted person would simply scroll with one gesture without caring about what unit to navigate by. Navigating by unit also works best if you already know the page or app's structure, see also: learning every window's layout first. A sighted person can do this in a second or two, a blind user messing with a touch screen will take at least 15 times as long. A keyboard user will also be slower, but quite a bit less so. Yes, a touch screen is inefficient for the blind.
Brille Screen Input helps in a lot of respects and in a lot of ways eliminates the need to carry several devices, provided the user is proficient enough in braille input and doesn't need a hand free while typing. This, for example, means that a person walking outside with a cane or a guide dog will be unable to properly use BSI until they are stationary and not holding onto their dog or cane. Granted, this is also the case with a bluetooth keyboard and amusingly enough, the old feature phones of yore that had t9 input actually had a great solution to this problem; it wasn't the fastest either by any stretch of the imagination, textspeak is a thing for a very good reason, but it was deterministic and tactile. You could walk around minding your environment while using one hand to type out messages, and even without listening to the screenreader you could be relatively certain that what you intended to type actually got entered, if you didn't use the predictive mode which was often horrible anyway.
In that sense, while touch screens are awesome for dynamically showing a whole range of apps, they are garbage for deterministically typing text as a blind person when not using BSI. That is a hill I will gladly die on.
bradley222 points1y ago
First off, using your phone while walking just isn't a good idea.
Second, I think this is a you problem, tuns of blind people use Smartphones every day with no issues.
Why does it matter if we're a little slower than sighted people, we can still use the devices and do what we like.
If you're talking about school and school alone, I'd agree that using a phone isn't a good idea but just in day to day life, I've not had any issues with using my phone and can type using the onscreen keyboard just fine, it's all about learning where the keys are. It's a smaller qwerty keyboard and it might take a bit of time to get used to but it's doable and if you can't, you can get a bluetooth keyboard for around £20 or $30 on amazon and you'll be ok. Granted you'll have to learn keyboard shortcuts but that's how it would be with any new thing with a keyboard and a blind mode.
retrolental_morose2 points1y ago
oh and just to add, an unscientific survey of 30 totally blind teens who wanted to go out for a night with their sighted friends said they'd strongly prefer to carry just a phone about their person or in a handbag. only 1 said he'd be happy with a Braille display, and 2 of them mentioned they'd have a folding Bluetooth keyboard for emergencies. Of those 2, 1was learning Braille and felt braille screen input would be fast enough to replace that over the coming months
retrolental_morose2 points1y ago
I agree that touch screens are cumbersome. However depending on the nature of your work, carrying multiple devices mightn't be practical. Of course a full keyboard is top dollar, and next to that a system with buttons. But My daughter is preteen and has been using touchscreens for years, and I am as fast with Braille screen input (grade 2) as she is with her qwerty onscreen keyboard and autocorrect.
Also good points re multitasking on iPadOS, although the benefits of it, a bit like multi-monitor setups, are still less for us than for the sighted I think.
annibear2 points1y ago
Why the switch? VoiceOver and a bluetooth keyboard doesn't provide Braille. I guess you could add a refreshable Braille display in, but why bother when the BrailleNote is right there?
VoiceOver for math is possible, but Braille is going to be much better for understanding. I work in data science and would never proofread with VoiceOver. I mean, it's definitely possible, but Braille is much more natural.
DecisionThot [OP]1 points1y ago
First of all, awesome feedback, thank you times a thousand.
So do you use a braille note yourself or just a refreshable braille display with windows? The student I'm working with has become pretty proficient with the Braille Note, and we just started using keymath last week and I am definitely impressed with it. I was actually looking forward to teaching him higher math codes like fractions and exponents and so on as he moves through high school. I learned all of that in my TVI program so I was excited to actually teach it lol.
So maybe a better goal for this student would be to yield the time I was going to reserve for Voiceover instruction to giving instruction on higher math codes and symbols? And maybe work NVDA on windows in there too?
Thanks again for the help!
annibear1 points1y ago
I tend to just use a refreshable Braille display, or I use the BrailleNote as a refreshable Braille display. I personally am much more comfortable with a QWERTY keyboard than six dot--I *can* use the six dot, but I'm just faster with the QWERTY.
That sounds like a much better goal! You could teach both it and VoiceOver. Idk if the prevailing methodology is still that you need to learn NVDA/JAWS bc no one uses Apple, but honestly, I use a Mac in my professional life. I had to use JAWS for one job once, but other than that, I've gotten away with using Macs entirely. Idk how common that experience is though.
LyingSlider71 points1y ago
No I can edit a Google dock without any trouble depending on how good your students grammar or braille skills are it might be a little more of a challenge for them to weed do it by hand to look for errors personally myself and I don’t really do that as I’m typing after I space after a word it reads out the words so normally I can tell if it’s misspelled or not if not my aid normally goes back and spell checks everything the one thing that is kind of annoying is when you’re in a Google dock you can’t make the boil note read out everything that you’ve written if this is a big problem for you student you might want to have them type things in keyword instead and either copy and paste it to Google Docs returning or have it emailed to their teacher or somebody who can email it to the teacher I don’t know how to edit certain things such as the font or text sizes or colors but at the same time I’ve never played around with it and my TV I’ve never shown me how to do it before because it’s never been needed and if it is normally my aid will just add those things for me before or after I start typing the nice thing about typing on the braille note as well as it helps learn more contractions because if I type a word with no contractions that has contractions The Braille Note will auto correct and add the set of contractions
DecisionThot [OP]1 points1y ago
Thank you for this great feedback!
LyingSlider71 points1y ago
I am a sophomore in high school and I have both a Braille Note Touch plus and an iPad with a keyboard with my braille note touch plus I can access Google docs classroom slides drive and this is what a use fully two write all my essays and take notes in general yes you can connect your book share to it and either have it read out the book or read using the boil display my iPad I prefer to used to access my emails because it’s a little easier near than on the boil note however it is to get to mount all my emails and listen to them however it is a little easier to write an email with the boil note because I can feel the boil and put my cursor wherever I want and now it’s there for math depending on what kind of math class is student is in the world that would be better such as an algebra where there is a lot more of number equations it would be pretty easy to do them on the boil note however I am currently in geometry and I don’t very often use my braille note in there unless it’s specifically a number equation the boil note is also nice because if you’re a good boy reader and not a big listen or you can just read the Boyle to navigate depends on your preferences
DecisionThot [OP]1 points1y ago
Wow this is awesome feedback, thank you! It really helps to hear directly from the students.
So do you have any problems editing with Google docs?
Rokwind1 points1y ago
Personally I find that tablets are too big. They just have so much screen for you to touch and finding an item might be a hassle. I suggest using an Android with Blue tooth keyboard. I use an Android Note 9 and a decent keyboard.
The benifits: 1 The txt reader that comes standard is equell to Jaws. Don't waste your money on over priced blind asistive tech. Most of it is free in the google store. I swore off of apple many years ago when I was going blind because it was more focused in how something looks then how it works.
I utalize Google Drive pretty well with my android txt reader. The google one is trash in my opinion. Been blind for 4 years now and had lost most of my sight by then. Had a surgery to help me with my loss of sight but the surgery did the oppasit. salavi such is life.
a few more things that I have found that really help the blind.
Hats: Hats help shield my head from low hanging branches. I have a nice well used Leather Fedora that I wear when I go out. I call it my Hat of +2 protection. Also protects my nose from walls. lol Seriously though, every blind person needs a nice leather hat to protect them from what the cane does not see.
Leather mocasins: With a leather sole. Super comfy shoes that allow your feet to read the pavement/ground below you.
A perculator coffee pot: The biggest problem with a coffee pot is the glass. Say no to glass and get the perculator. It also uses no filters because it comes with a metal filter. So no more filter trash. Just bang the metal cofffee filter against the inside of your trashcan. Then rinse it out. The spout is also long and that makes it easier to pour. Those glass ones have such a short spout that you end up making a mess half the time. Been using perculators for more than 10 years and have never looked back. :)
hope this helps.
DecisionThot [OP]2 points1y ago
This definitely helps! Thank you so much!
So you use a Bluetooth keyboard with an Android phone? How does that work? Do you just set the phone on the table with the keyboard, or do you keep it in your pocket? Does it have braille input? I'm very intrigued by this.
I agree, I've used TalkBack on my Android and I do like it better than voiceover. I like that you can always go to a menu if you're stuck. iOS doesn't have that. It's either know the gesture or good luck.
Thanks again!
Rokwind1 points1y ago
I actually turned my dresser top into a standing desk. I place my phone on one corner of my dresser and place the blutooth keyboard on the center area of the dresser top. I also use one of thos Football Game foam seats as a standing pad so my feet have something soft to stand on. It's really nice.
if you want to give me a hand please subscribe to my youtube channel where I review toys for the blind and teach the blind how to transform some transformers. I found that transforming a transformer helps me to settle my mind and focus. They help me when I am feeling frustration because of my lack of sight. So I grab a Seige Hound and transform him a couple of times until my mind settles and I can get back to whatever I was doing. The channel name is below
YTchannel:: Blind Prime
Keywords you can use to find my channel: blindformers blind transformers
also i am on twitter: @blind_prime
BaginaJon1 points1y ago
Tvi here. I’m no expert but I’m in the process of transitioning my student from his braillenote touch to a laptop with JAWs. I want him proficient in both, because in college he’ll need both. I wouldn’t bother with an iPad either. We’re about to start exploring using the laptop with the new brailliant display, which is kind of like a touch but only has the keys and the braille display and it pairs with a laptop.
DecisionThot [OP]1 points1y ago
Awesome! Yes I've used the brailliant before it's great!
Thanks for the feedback! How old is your student? Have you considered NVDA as an alternative to JAWS? I only say this because I have taught both and NVDA, in my personal opinion, appears to be far more user friendly, especially for a student transitioning to screen reader software from another device. I do like JAWS, and I think it has more to offer, particularly in a complex professional setting where one might use spreadsheets for their career, but for daily student use I have found NVDA to just be a simpler and effective platform, and has everything a student needs to get by. Which, now hearing myself say this, I'm wondering why I'm pushing my student towards an iPad lol!
Thanks for the feedback, keep up the great work!
BaginaJon2 points1y ago
I haven’t used nvda because my state school licenses JAWs and won’t use nvda because it’s open source? My student is a senior and very skilled at braille
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