Blind and Visually Impaired Community
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Windows vs macOS (self.Blind)
submitted by LeBlindGuy
Hello, good morning good afternoon or good night to anyone reading this post.
i would like to buy a laptop but i am undecided which one to buy, i buy one with windows system or macOS.
Which of the two systems has more accessibility features for the blind? (Someday I will go totally blind).
This laptop will be used for my college and later my work.
i would like to buy a laptop but i am undecided which one to buy, i buy one with windows system or macOS.
Which of the two systems has more accessibility features for the blind? (Someday I will go totally blind).
This laptop will be used for my college and later my work.
Fridux 6 points 1y ago
I have experience with both and my opinion is that it depends. For people with low vision, I find MacOS to be superior because its zoom, color inversion, and contrast settings are very customizable, however once your vision deteriorates to the point that you lose the ability to read, the screen-reader on MacOS pales in comparison to the windows options, which are scriptable, very customizable with community add-ons, and provide a better web browsing experience compared to VoiceOver on MacOS. Windows laptops also tend to be cheaper, but the M1 system on chip on even the lowest end MacBook Air outpaces most of the Windows laptops, and its battery life is off the charts.
[deleted] 3 points 1y ago
I'd say the reverse. With low vision, windows has more customization because of the inconsistent diversity in people's low vision. Most developers however, understand addressing "full blindness," so do a better job creating accessibility issues. Mac has better control over it's OS, so it does a better job of integrating and enforcing accessibility protocols. When you are between sighted and full blind, then windows gives you more opportunity to customize to your needs.
Badassmotherfuckerer 1 points 1y ago
Can you elaborate on the web browsing experience not being as good on Mac OS?
Fridux 1 points 1y ago
Caret browsing works pretty bad with VoiceOver on Safari at least, as it's bound to the position of the VoiceOver cursor which sometimes does not move automatically, and there are situations when the VoiceOver cursor either gets stuck, selects elements that should be invisible, loops the same elements over and over, skips elements, and behaves erratically when moving backwards. You don't even have to go far to experience these issues; Apple's own websites, the Developer Forums and Developer Portal in particular, are rich in navigation problems for VoiceOver.
Badassmotherfuckerer 1 points 1y ago
Gotcha, that's pretty bad Apple's own website has those issues haha.
Marconius 4 points 1y ago
I was both a power user for both Mac and Windows before I went blind, and now I'm a big advocate for MacOS. I really prefer VoiceOver over Jaws or NVDA, and as with everything, it will come down to personal preference. Microsoft Office 2016 and 2021 for the Mac are fully accessible, as are all of the native Apple apps like Pages, Numbers, etc. If you are getting into coding and development, XCode works great and I've had no issues with command line tools like Terminal or iTerm, especially when using TDSR from the Lighthouse. Editing videos and creating music works great on the Mac as Final Cut Pro and Logic/MainStage/GarageBband all function great with VoiceOver. For the visually impaired, the contrast, color inversion, and zoom features of MacOS are much much easier to use and much more robust than Windows.
I have my 2020 Intel MacBook Pro dual-booted with Windows 10, so I can switch between both systems easily when I'm doing accessibility testing. You won't yet be able to do this with M-1 Macs for the time being since Windows isn't built for that architecture, so be wary of that.
I have my 2020 Intel MacBook Pro dual-booted with Windows 10, so I can switch between both systems easily when I'm doing accessibility testing. You won't yet be able to do this with M-1 Macs for the time being since Windows isn't built for that architecture, so be wary of that.
Badassmotherfuckerer 2 points 1y ago
How's the learning curve on MacOS if you're a long time iOS Voiceover user? I've dabbled with Mac OS for like a day around six years ago and didn't commit the time to learning it. I've also had training with JAWS but I found it really really difficult to master. Is Mac Voiceover easier? I primarily use Voiceover on my iPhone for everything and I love it, but if Mac can give some good carryover, I'd be all about that.
Marconius 1 points 1y ago
MacOS is a larger system so there is a bit more of a learning curve, but if you are comfortable with touch commands and swipes in iOS, you can turn on the Trackpad commander in MacOS which navigates the system exactly like you do in iOS. VoiceOver on the Mac has Interaction, where you focus on a group or specific area of a window, app, or website and do a keyboard command to dive into it and interact, and that can be a tripping point for some folks, but all that can be adjusted and changed. You'll need to learn MacOS itself, and there is a fully accessible MacOS Help guide that runs you through everything about your system right in the main Finder help menu.
Security is also generally better on the Mac, as is fixing any system issues and maintaining a clean and healthy OS. Much more intuitive than Windows in my opinion.
Security is also generally better on the Mac, as is fixing any system issues and maintaining a clean and healthy OS. Much more intuitive than Windows in my opinion.
Nighthawk321 1 points 1y ago
I'm currently learning MacOS for my line of work, and I've always used Windows. I've definitely struggled with Voiceover because of how different it is compared to NVDA. It sounds like you're very knowledgeable about Voiceover, do you have any suggestions or resources on navigating with Voiceover?
Marconius 3 points 1y ago
It's not only the screen reader, but the operating systems themselves are fundamentally different in the way they function, from general system navigation to app installation and maintenance. I strongly recommend poking through $1
It really helps, as does the MacOS Help menu found in the Finder Menu bar. If you are used to tab navigation, you can set that up by going to System Preferences > Keyboard > Shortcuts tab and then turning on the Tab key navigation checkbox.
Learn and get used to QuickNav and interaction. I use QuickNav all the time, allowing me to navigate my whole system or websites with just the arrow keys alone without needing to hold down the VO keys. I recommend you check out the Mac VoiceOver group on Facebook; I regularly help folks out there with their questions and needs.
It's never too early to learn how to use Terminal and the command line! I do almost all of my file and folder management through Terminal commands now, but I will admit that can get a little overwhelming trying to learn both that and VoiceOver at the same time. Poke through the options in the menu bars and memorize the keyboard shortcuts! They make overall system interaction super fast and they really help productivity. Here are some good ones to know:
* VO+F8 - VoiceOver Utility
* Shift+Command+H - Opens Home folder in Finder
* Shift+Command+O - Opens Documents folder in Finder
* Command+Option+L - Opens Downloads folder in Finder
* Command+Tab - Cycles through open apps
* Command+Tilde - Cycles through open windows within the currently active app
* Command+Option+Escape - Opens Force Quit dialog to close apps that have stopped for some reason
* VO+ F1 tapped twice - opens application chooser menu that shows system dialogs
* VO+ f2 tapped twiice - opens list of all windows in currently active app
Just a few to start :)
It really helps, as does the MacOS Help menu found in the Finder Menu bar. If you are used to tab navigation, you can set that up by going to System Preferences > Keyboard > Shortcuts tab and then turning on the Tab key navigation checkbox.
Learn and get used to QuickNav and interaction. I use QuickNav all the time, allowing me to navigate my whole system or websites with just the arrow keys alone without needing to hold down the VO keys. I recommend you check out the Mac VoiceOver group on Facebook; I regularly help folks out there with their questions and needs.
It's never too early to learn how to use Terminal and the command line! I do almost all of my file and folder management through Terminal commands now, but I will admit that can get a little overwhelming trying to learn both that and VoiceOver at the same time. Poke through the options in the menu bars and memorize the keyboard shortcuts! They make overall system interaction super fast and they really help productivity. Here are some good ones to know:
* VO+F8 - VoiceOver Utility
* Shift+Command+H - Opens Home folder in Finder
* Shift+Command+O - Opens Documents folder in Finder
* Command+Option+L - Opens Downloads folder in Finder
* Command+Tab - Cycles through open apps
* Command+Tilde - Cycles through open windows within the currently active app
* Command+Option+Escape - Opens Force Quit dialog to close apps that have stopped for some reason
* VO+ F1 tapped twice - opens application chooser menu that shows system dialogs
* VO+ f2 tapped twiice - opens list of all windows in currently active app
Just a few to start :)
Nighthawk321 1 points 1y ago
Followup question. Do you know of an accessible way to see what's taking up the most storage space? I actually installed dropbox, couldn't figure out how to check specific folders I wanted to be synced, and then filled up my entire drive lol. Also,, not sure if this is a bug, but sometimes when I navigate through the menu bar, Voiceover won't let me scroll down. Only when I turn off quick nav does it let me, but something it lets me even when quick nav is on. Do you possibly know what could be causing that?
Marconius 1 points 1y ago
When you are in Finder, hit Command+F to open the Search window. To find the largest files and folders, navigate into the search window, make sure the Kind search attribute is set to Any, then I'd Add a new search attribute, choose Other, then search for file size in the attributesearch screen. Click on the Feale Size nameand hit Enter to add it to your search attributes. Then you can set that to look for files greater than a certain amount, like 100mb or so.
All your search results will initially appear in an icon browser if you navigate backwards from the search attributes. I usually switch this view to Column browser by hitting Command+3 to navigate it easier. From here, I'd go to the toolbar near the top of the search window and set the Group By pop-up to Size, that way all the large files will appear first. Go back to the column browser and interact and you'll have all the large files on your system right there. You can always go back to the search attributes and change the Kind pop-up to Folders, videos, etc. if you want to search for specific types of files, then go back into the column browser to check the updated results.
As for the menu issue, I'm really not sure. When you hit VO+M be sure to navigate with the arrow keys while holding down VO, and enter a menu by clicking on it and then using the up and down arrows to move through the menu. Hitting Escape will exit focus on the menu entirely. If you find yourself getting stuck, always try hitting Escape first to see if that gets you out of a situation, then retry whatever you were trying to do.
All your search results will initially appear in an icon browser if you navigate backwards from the search attributes. I usually switch this view to Column browser by hitting Command+3 to navigate it easier. From here, I'd go to the toolbar near the top of the search window and set the Group By pop-up to Size, that way all the large files will appear first. Go back to the column browser and interact and you'll have all the large files on your system right there. You can always go back to the search attributes and change the Kind pop-up to Folders, videos, etc. if you want to search for specific types of files, then go back into the column browser to check the updated results.
As for the menu issue, I'm really not sure. When you hit VO+M be sure to navigate with the arrow keys while holding down VO, and enter a menu by clicking on it and then using the up and down arrows to move through the menu. Hitting Escape will exit focus on the menu entirely. If you find yourself getting stuck, always try hitting Escape first to see if that gets you out of a situation, then retry whatever you were trying to do.
Nighthawk321 1 points 1y ago
Wow, thank you so much for this! I'll definitely be checking out the forums you mentioned. Much appreciated.
Laser_Lens_4 2 points 1y ago
If you plan on using Microsoft Word or braille, go with windows
retrolental_morose 6 points 1y ago
Agreed. 90 percent of the work and education markets is Windows.
Of the blind people who went mac,a good half are running windows in virtual machines.
Pick up a Windows system, get hold of NVDA and the 4 or 5 training books they sell at very reasonable prices, and endup using tech via text-to-speechch the most efficient route.
Not saying iOS isn't a great mobile platform, but research and actual real-world use had shown Windows is, handds-down, used wider and better.
Of the blind people who went mac,a good half are running windows in virtual machines.
Pick up a Windows system, get hold of NVDA and the 4 or 5 training books they sell at very reasonable prices, and endup using tech via text-to-speechch the most efficient route.
Not saying iOS isn't a great mobile platform, but research and actual real-world use had shown Windows is, handds-down, used wider and better.
Badassmotherfuckerer 1 points 1y ago
The office suite is available on Mac and Voiceover friendly, isn't it?
Laser_Lens_4 1 points 1y ago
Yes, but it straight up doesn’t work as well. I’ve tried it. It’s substantially better on windows
Badassmotherfuckerer 1 points 1y ago
Ah, gotcha. Thanks!
bradley22 1 points 1y ago
I'd say windows because it's cheeper and what I'm used to but I've heard some blind people like macs.
I find them a bit clunky although I've not used one in years.
Either way if you have a place for blind people to go to test out stuff, do that and get an accessibility exporte to help you out if you can.
I find them a bit clunky although I've not used one in years.
Either way if you have a place for blind people to go to test out stuff, do that and get an accessibility exporte to help you out if you can.
CosmicBunny97 1 points 1y ago
Windows if you’re blind, MacOS if you’re low vision. This is all subjective of course. I personally found NVDA and JAWS - the 2 main screen readers for Windows - a breath of fresh air after using MacOS with VoiceOver for half a year. MacOS VoiceOver is clunky and frustrating, but that’s just my opinion.
LeBlindGuy [OP] 1 points 1y ago
Ok I decided that is windows. Now we enter in the hardest psrt, choosing a notebook/laptop
CosmicBunny97 1 points 1y ago
Not sure what the difference is honestly. You’re gonna need i5 with 8gb RAM at least but I’d bump up to i7 with 16gb ram. I’m currently using a workstation originally intended for CAD with 8gb ram and a pretty powerful processor (which I don’t remember) and it works great.
EffectiveYak0 1 points 1y ago
I'm not completely blind, I work in tech, and I used a mac for both work and play. I do use voiceover as well as the high contrast accessibility features in macOS.
At the end of the day your use case and what feels comfortable for you is going to probably dictate what you use.
At the end of the day your use case and what feels comfortable for you is going to probably dictate what you use.
codeplaysleep 1 points 1y ago
What are you studying? This may make a slight difference.
As an operating system, I greatly prefer MacOS and I can do my work on it much easier than I could on Windows, accessibility features or otherwise.
I find the accessibility tools for low vision easy to use and I vastly prefer the Mac's on-screen magnifier to anything Windows has to offer. But I don't use a screen reader full-time and I've never used one on Windows.
As an operating system, I greatly prefer MacOS and I can do my work on it much easier than I could on Windows, accessibility features or otherwise.
I find the accessibility tools for low vision easy to use and I vastly prefer the Mac's on-screen magnifier to anything Windows has to offer. But I don't use a screen reader full-time and I've never used one on Windows.
LeBlindGuy [OP] 1 points 1y ago
I'm studying enology (popularly known as winemaking), if I went totally blind I will start to study journalism or law school/course to act as a lawyer/advocate and after some years of experience act as a judge
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