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Full History - 2021 - 11 - 01 - ID#qke0wa
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Has there Ever been a proposal to replace english text with braille? (self.Blind)
submitted by individual0
I've started looking into learning braille and something I keep thinking is: On screen braille doesn't take up much more space than English text on screen. If you're using a monospace font it can take up the exact same amount of space.


And then I got to thinking, wouldn't it make sense if everyone used braille? Even sighted people. Where each character would be six dot character instead of English text. Almost everyone's vision goes as they get older. You could lose it from an accident any day. And if everyone used it, everything would be printed in it and people that can't see would have the same access to printed material as anyone else. Everything around town, menus and such, would be in braille. visually and tactile. Sighted people could see the dot characters to read them, and blind people could feel them. Even if most things weren't raised print because of the extra cost, things simply being in the same character set would make it easier for you to have a portable brail reader that can scan lines on a page and present you with a tactile representation of the same six dot characters it's seeing, laid out the same way.

Instead of having to learn braille in an emergency if you lose your sight. What if you were using braille your whole life? Then if you lost your vision the only thing that would need to change is you'd start reading braille on a tactile display instead of a visual display. And special characters might need to be spelled out instead of having a symbolic representation.

Just seems like there is no downside to sighted people with the upside of much better accessibility in the world. Sited people would be able to read in the dark!


I wonder how long it would take to transition to it. And if it would work out.


The only negative for sited people I've thought of so far is slower hand writing speed. Seems like it'd taker longer to make dots than fluid characters in cursive
OldManOnFire 13 points 1y ago
I'm very much against this idea.

* Humans lose tactile sensations as they age, just like they lose eyesight
* The high cost to emboss everything isn't worth the marginal benefit
* Historical artifacts such as the Declaration of Independence and the first edition of Shakespeare's plays would become unreadable within a generation
* Braille is becoming less and less necessary. There are screen readers, motion detectors, facial recognition software, talking alarm clocks, and other technological advances that make Braille redundant
* A 2,000 page Bible is about 2 inches thick, or .001 inches per page. A Bible in Braille weighs about 70 pounds and takes up 6 cubic feet of space. Your child's school backpack needs its own U-Haul truck

Print is portable. That's the reasons it's ubiquitous. That's why we write on paper and not on tree bark anymore. Your mailbox doesn't need to be the same size as your bath tub and your driver's license shouldn't take up the passenger seat of your Honda. Embossing everything in Braille seems like a step backwards.

You could just print Braille characters without embossing them. It would save a lot of space. But to understand why that's not much help go to the cemetery, close your eyes, and try to read a gravestone with your fingertips. Even if you could read Braille visually, you still couldn't read it quickly by touch, any more than you can quickly read a headstone engraved in English by touch. It's a learned skill. The blind community you hope to help by this would still need to learn tactile reading.

I just reread what I've written and God, do I sound pessimistic! I apologize - that's not the tone I live my life in. I'm all for sighted people wanting to help the blind community and I'm usually cheerful about answering questions. Don't know what got into me today. Halloween candy hangover? I don't know. Anyway, I want to make it very clear that I'm pooping on your idea but I'm not pooping on you or on your desire to make the world more inclusive for us. Thank you for thinking of us and for having the courage to present your idea to strangers on the Internet. I hope I didn't frighten you away from dreaming big and wanting to make the world a better place.

May peace, love, and yummy tacos be upon you!
zersiax 5 points 1y ago
If yoo think that brayl isn't necessary anymoar, trai reeding this with text to speach sawftware. Yoo will find that peepol get vary, vary bad at spelling, particularly in Englesh, when we compleatly relai on computers telling us how things should bee written. For peepol using TTS sawftware, particularly Eloquence on Windos, I recommend reeding this text karakter by karakter, to sea just hao menny mistayks I managed to sneek in here with almost no difference in how some TTS systems render it
OldManOnFire 3 points 1y ago
Just to clarify, you think writing English in Braille instead of with the Latin alphabet will somehow cure humanity of its spelling mistakes? Or that Braille to speech TTS software will handle the lazy spelling in Braille any better than it does now?

Your point is fun and I upvoted it because it made me smile but I don't see how it matters. Lazy gonna lazy, no matter what alphabet you give them, and the redundancy of Braille in the 21st century won't be cured by having more of it.
zersiax 6 points 1y ago
My point is that braille is in a lot of respects still very necessary, particularly in languages like English where one doesn't write the same way one speaks. Is it light or lite? Sight or site? Word, wurd, or wird? You can't easily tell by just listening. And the people who try are often horrible at spelling, because they figure if the TTS pronounces it correctly, it must be spelled right. This is a bit of a pet peeve of mine.
Dietzgen17 2 points 1y ago
>I just reread what I've written and God, do I sound pessimistic!

You sound intelligently skeptical to me.

To your point about the speed with which one can read Braille, the OP created another post directed at people who can read both text and Braille. One said that even the fastest readers of Braille can't read nearly as quickly as readers of text. And last time I checked, no one said they could read Braille and text with equal facility.
OldManOnFire 2 points 1y ago
Thank you, but there's an art to telling someone their idea won't work in such a way that they're inspired to try again. I blew it. Nothing wrong with being a skeptic, but I went overboard. Way too much criticism and not nearly enough encouragement. I didn't even offer an alternative idea, I just pooped on his. I was wrong to do that.

I don't read Braille. I just don't see the need. We have podcasts and audio descriptions and TTS software. There are apps that allow you to point your phone's camera at a street sign in Spanish and the translation is read aloud to you in English. Learning Braille seems like learning to spin my own thread and weave my own cloth to sew my own clothing. Braille is a cool skill to have but not really a useful skill to have.

The only word in Braille I know is MEN. It's easy to remember because the dots are shaped like a drooping penis. If I'm ever alone in an unfamiliar building and I happen to put my hand in the right place on the wall to find a Braille sign that feels like a drooping penis I'll know I'm in the right place. If there are other dots before Mr. Droopy I'll know it's the women's room.
Dietzgen17 2 points 1y ago
You're entitled to judge the quality of your own response. But I don't think OP is exactly the most diplomatic individual. I haven't like the tone he's used with me and the idea doesn't make any sense to me. A tiny proportion of people in the world read Braille so I don't understand what would be the justification for making it the default. Braille is a coding system that was created by Louis Braille, a French teenager who had been able to read but who lost his sight. It's always existed in relation to a language written with the Roman Alphabet, although I assume it's since been adapted to languages that use other writing systems.

I've belonged to this subreddit for a few months. There have been a couple of posts floating ideas that seemed to come out of nowhere and for which there seemed to be no crying need. I don't think it was a coincidence that both came from sighted people who didn't know much about the Blind and Visually Impaired community.

Any would-be entrepreneur or inventor has to expect and know how to handle questions and criticism. A fundamental question is, "Why is this needed?"
individual0 [OP] 1 points 1y ago
> A 2,000 page Bible is about 2 inches thick, or .001 inches per page. A Bible in Braille weighs about 70 pounds and takes up 6 cubic feet of space. Your child's school backpack needs its own U-Haul truck

If it's not embossed for blind people the characters can take up the same amount of space since you can print the six dot patterns at the same font size you'd print normal text.
individual0 [OP] -1 points 1y ago
I’m not saying we emboss everything. I’m saying in normal print text, why not use Braille instead of the English alphabet. For just normal flat printed text. And everything you see onscreen. Basically make Braille the English language character set. It only needs to be embossed if it’s actually being read by a blind person.


Thinking about your cemetery example: I can do that. I can do it right now with no further training or learning. Sure I’ll read slow feeling out those letters. But I could do it, and I’d get faster in time.

Now surely it’s faster for me to go feel out English letters than to first learn Braille and then also learn to read tactically.

But if I had been using Braille characters my whole sited life, then when I lose my vision I’ll be able to read tactical Braille at least as easily as I can read tactile English now. Without having to learn a new alphabet so late in life.






> Humans lose tactile sensations as they age, just like they lose eyesight

If they lose their vision and tactile sensation they they are no worse off having read Braille their whole life than if they’d been reading English. This point seems irrelevant.


> Historical artifacts such as the Declaration of Independence and the first edition of Shakespeare's plays would become unreadable within a generation

Well we wouldn’t just forget everything that’s been printed in English and start over. Everything would be translated and converted to Braille first.

And who cares if we stop knowing how to read English. Humans have already forgotten more languages than we currently know.



> Braille is becoming less and less necessary. There are screen readers, motion detectors, facial recognition software, talking alarm clocks, and other technological advances that make Braille redundant

Then why do we bother teaching sighted kids to read? They could just use that same software instead right? Clearly society and educators think there is a benefit. I know I’m glad I know how to read and write.
Also, electricity isn’t always around. Wouldn’t it suck if a power outage meant no one could read or write?
OldManOnFire 3 points 1y ago
You asked for our opinions. I gave mine. You seem to be arguing against it more for the sake of arguing than for anything else.

That might be my fault. I came across as a condescending know-it-all in my first response. I'll accept the blame and keep it friendly, even though I still disagree.

Your first objection was to my point that we lose tactile sensation as we age. You said we'd be no worse off with Braille than with English because of this, and my point seems irrelevant. The exact same argument could be used against your point - we'd be no better off with either language once we lose tactile sensation. So why go through the expense and the hassle if the point is moot? I'm old enough to remember when the Carter administration tried to convert America to the metric system. It didn't work because people are stoopid and there was too much inertia in the system. Most people just didn't want to do the mental math the conversions required. Switching from a Latin alphabet to a Braille one would be like going metric times 1000. If there isn't anything to gain from the tactile impaired blind community the hassle of conversion would be pointless.

But not all blind people are tactile impaired, and some people would benefit. But is the benefit to those few people worth the effort and the resistance the rest of the community would experience? That's the crux of the question. How much disruption should 99.98% of the population endure to benefit the 0.02% who would benefit?

This question ties into your last objection, why bother teaching kids to read at all if TTS software and talking alarm clocks exist? We read because it is the fastest way to transmit information. It's 3 or 4 times the speed of talking. A written warning sign that says NO LIFEGUARD ON DUTY saves the cost of a town crier telling beach goers there's no lifeguard on duty. In short, we read because it's convenient and efficient. That's why we still teach it.

I don't see switching to Braille convenient or efficient. The benefits don't even come close to justifying the inconvenience.

The historical artifacts question: Maybe it's the sentimentalist in me but I think historical documents have intrinsic value. A birthday card from my grandfather to my grandmother would be a treasured possession if I had one. A letter informing a widow her husband was killed while at war or an autographed album sleeve from a favorite band just wouldn't have the same emotional impact if they were written in a language most people could no longer read. Is the 0.02% of the population that would benefit from this worth the sentimental and emotional loss the 99.98% could experience? Again, I don't think the marginal benefit is worth the cost.

There were compelling reasons to go metric. There was a government effort to get us to go metric. The change would have been minor, street signs in kilometers instead of miles and milk in liters instead of quarts or gallons. We couldn't do it. Switching from our alphabet to Braille would be a much greater lift, against much more resistance, for a smaller benefit than the effort to switch to metric. I like the idea of not having to learn a new alphabet when learning to read with my fingers but I'm also realistic. The benefit is just too small and the effort is just too big, and I'd rather not have some angry rednecks pissed off at the blind community for making them learn a new alphabet.

If a genie in a lamp gave me a wish and I could wish your Braille alphabet into existence without the labor pains it would cause to society I'd say cool, let's do this! But we can't do this without disrupting the status quo.
individual0 [OP] 1 points 1y ago
> we'd be no better off with either language once we lose tactile sensation. So why go through the expense and the hassle if the point is moot?

I'm proposing we completely throw out the current character set of a,b,c,d and so on, and replace it with a braille character set. So after the first generation or two, there's no expense or hassle. At least no more than there is to learn our current alphabet and character set(I think?)

And I'm wondering, in that world. Would it be any worse for sighted people? If not, and it would make things better for blind people, it seems like something worth considering. Especially since most people start losing senses they get older. If you live long enough, it might not be if you lose your vision, but when.
It'd remove a translation layer from our current character set to braille. Which should make those refreshable braille displays and e-readers even easier and more widely supported. As the only difference would be tactile vs visual instead of tactile vs visual PLUS a completely different set of characters.
individual0 [OP] 1 points 1y ago
> You seem to be arguing against it more for the sake of arguing than for anything else.

Arguing is discourse :) I'm proposing a new radical idea. Of course there's gonna be concerns and push back. And by arguing those points back and forth we can address each concern and realize it's either a real concern, or it's not. in this hypothetical braille only world of mine.

Not arguing, or ending the conversation when there's a hint of argument, would prevent a lot of progress.

I'm enjoying your responses.
Dietzgen17 2 points 1y ago
> I'm proposing a new radical idea.

To be compelling, a new idea has to serve a purpose or solve a problem in an elegant and efficient manner.
OldManOnFire 1 points 1y ago
It's been a fun conversation =)
Dietzgen17 7 points 1y ago
I'm sighted and I don't have an extensive understanding of Braille, but here are my thoughts:

There are different levels of Braille. Only at the very beginning does each six-character pattern stand for an individual letter or number. It would take forever to print out all Braille documents that used that system. The more advanced levels make great use of contractions and abbreviations.

Braille is tactile. Text is visual. It's much easier to read text if one has sight.

Braille isn't super-easy to learn. If it were, every blind person would learn it, including people who lose their sight later in life.

Braille requires special tools to print. Printed Braille materials are very bulky.

Obviously, Braille is an extremely useful tool for people who are blind and who have severe vision impairment, but expanding it to the rest of the population doesn't make sense or seem practical.
individual0 [OP] 3 points 1y ago
> Braille is tactile. Text is visual. It's much easier to read text if one has sight.

this is the first solid argument against it I've gotten so far. Are you saying sighted people can read English text faster than they can read braille text even if they are proficient in both?
Dietzgen17 2 points 1y ago
As you know now from your other $1, people are almost never equally proficient in Braille and text reading and text can be read much faster than Braille.

EDITED TO ADD:

People also said that printed Braille can't be made as small as regular print and be easily read.
Dietzgen17 1 points 1y ago
It would take a very long time for a sighted person to become proficient in Braille. I'm not sure you would be able to come up with many examples of people who are equally good at both. Text can be grasped at a glance from any sheet or screen. Braille dots have to be sensed. It seems like one would be faster than the other.
individual0 [OP] 2 points 1y ago
> Braille isn't super-easy to learn. If it were, every blind person would learn it, including people who lose their sight later in life.

English isn’t exactly easy. You’re learning it from the moment you’re born and that education continues your whole life. Would it really be more difficult to learn Braille from birth instead?
Dietzgen17 2 points 1y ago
I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that children are not taught Braille from birth. They're encouraged to develop their tactile abilities through exercises and play but they work up to Braille.

The fact remains that Braille would be a valuable skill for people to learn, yet many people don't learn it, even when they become blind later in life. That suggests to me that it's not easy.
individual0 [OP] 1 points 1y ago
I'm not proposing we learn it later in life. I'm proposing it becomes the default character set across the board. New sighted children would grow up learning to read visual braille. And blind folks would read the same characters, but tactically.

I wonder if it was THE way to read, for everyone, of more blind people would learn it.
Dietzgen17 1 points 1y ago
>I'm not proposing we learn it later in life.

I didn't say that was your primary objective but it would be an obvious alternative for people who lost their sight.

I won't repeat why I don't think it's a sensible idea.
individual0 [OP] 0 points 1y ago
> There are different levels of Braille. Only at the very beginning does each six-character pattern stand for an individual letter or number. It would take forever to print out all Braille documents that used that system. The more advanced levels make great use of contractions and abbreviations.

It's the same with standard English, there are contractions there too. People would just learn braille contractions instead.
Dietzgen17 2 points 1y ago
>It's the same with standard English, there are contractions there too. People would just learn braille contractions instead.

My understanding is that it's not the same. Basic (uncontracted) Braille is just at the beginning. Most materials aren't written in basic Braille; you have to learn the more advanced (contracted) versions. You also have to learn how to distinguish punctuation.
individual0 [OP] -1 points 1y ago
To be clear, I'm proposing completely replacing the English alphabet with braille. So it taking effort to learn braille isn't an argument against it. cause you had to put in time and effort to learn English too. In this hypothetical world I'm discussing learning braille wouldn't be extra, it'd be the only thing anyone learned, sighted and blind.

Most Latin alphabet materials aren't written in 4 year old level English, we don't consider that a problem. We get better as we learn.
Tarnagona 5 points 1y ago
I’m not sure this would be as helpful as you’re thinking it might be. Braille is the best we’ve got for tactile writing, but I don’t think it’s great as a print medium.

1) I’m assuming it’s pretty hell on dyslexic people to learn Braille with so many mirrored characters. I don’t have dyslexia and find it easy to mix up mirrored characters like e and I, h and j, or r and w. I’d get better if I used Braille regularly, of course, just like I don’t mix up b and d in print. But there’s a lot more of those mirrored characters in Braille, especially with contracted Braille.

2) Are we keeping Braille to the standard size? How small can print-Braille be made with characters that are still distinct? I suspect you’d have to keep it at a bigger font size than print so the characters don’t blur together, though not as big as you have to keep tactile-Braille. If my intuition is correct, you’re still losing space by printing Braille letters instead, even if you’re not going so far as embossing everything.

3) Braille would be slower to handwrite, and handwritten Braille would probably be miserable to read. Just imagine what happens if you don’t press hard enough with your pen, and a couple dots don’t show up properly; you’ve now changed the word. In print, if part of a letter doesn’t show up, you can generally figure out what it’s supposed to be from the rest of the shape. I also suspect it would be incredibly difficult to keep handwritten Braille cells neatly aligned while being far more important that you do so.

It’s certainly an interesting idea to find or make up an alphabet that can be written/read easily by both blind (tactile) and sighted (visual) users. Moon Time might fit closest, but it never caught on because it was harder to produce, and possibly harder to read tactiley than Braille, but it might be a place to start for ideas.
individual0 [OP] 0 points 1y ago
> 2) Are we keeping Braille to the standard size?

I assuming it can be made much smaller for non-embossed print.

> 3) Braille would be slower to handwrite

This is where the idea starts falling apart for me. reading and writing people's handwritten braille. Then again, maybe we'd just develop pens and pencils that are specifically meant for the 6 dot pattern that would make it easier for us.
Tarnagona 2 points 1y ago
That’s the thing, I don’t think you could go as small with print-Braille as you can with print-print, so it’ll take up more space. I’m just imaging how much more trouble I would have reading this post at this size if I was reading Braille dots instead of Latin letters. Granted, I’m low vision, but I assume the same would apply to sighted people, just with the font sizes stepped down.

I’m glad we’re both in agreement on how atrocious Braille handwriting would be. XD
JosephSeabourne 4 points 1y ago
This is actually really interesting of a thought…

Another slight issue with handwriting is that it would be VERY easy to accidentally have a dot to far to the left or something and it not be clear whether it is, for example, a dot 1 or 4.
Rethunker 3 points 1y ago
There’s a typeface called Braille Neue that mixes inkprint characters with Braille.

https://www.thisiscolossal.com/2018/04/braille-neue-combines-braille-and-visible-characters/

Braille has a standardized size. Each cell of six dots is relatively large compared to a typical ink character. You can fit two or three rows of printed characters into the height of a Braille cell.

The cost of printing Braille is relatively high, but a mixed Braille/inkprint font such as Braille Neue could be useful for public signage.
4humans 1 points 1y ago
Terrible idea.
Visually reading Braille doesn’t mean you can tactically read Braille. So even if you learned the code you may never be able to read it without vision.

Second where do get that Braille and print take up the same amount of space? Many single print characters are represented by at least two Braille cells, this includes upper case letters and numbers not to mention getting into typforms, parentheses, UEB math or even Nemeth all take significantly more space than print.
Shadowwynd 1 points 1y ago
While we're dreaming, lets revise the Latin alphabet by another 20 characters or so in order that everything is spelled properly and phonetically - one letter makes one sound. "Pacific Ocean", for example, has "c" pronounced three ways, plus a "ea" but those letters aren't pronounced separately and it isn't the same ea as in some other words. This would mean no more "doubles" - ch, tr, th, ng, etc., and no more cough/thorough/through/hiccough/tough nonsense. While we're at it, lets make sure we change b, d, p, q so that they are not mirrored versions of each other. In terms of sheer benefit, (after the adjustment period, anyway) this would make English much easier to learn and to spell and use; print density would increase. These two changes would all but eliminate dyslexia which is more prevalent then blind/LV.

oh, and while we're dreaming, I want a unicorn.
Tarnagona 1 points 1y ago
Only problem with this proposal is that it’s going to be a right pain to read English in any other dialect than your own, because so many of the words would be spelt differently.

Not saying English spelling isn’t a mess (it is!), but spelling everything phonetically comes with it’s own readability problems, especially in global forums (like Reddit), where you’re communicating in writing with speakers from everywhere.

As for mirrored letters, agreed. And that’s one of the big arguments, I think, against visual Braille. There are SO MANY mirrored characters that it would hinder more people than it helped.
individual0 [OP] 1 points 1y ago
Yes! I’m am not a fan of non phonetic spelling.

Are you gonna be on the 2024 ballot?
individual0 [OP] 1 points 1y ago
I guess another way to put it is, why shouldn't braille be the default character set or font for the English language?
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