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I'd be very grateful for feedback on usefulness of features for device in development (self.Blind)
submitted by philipmasters18
I'm aiming to use mmWave technology to create some sort of detection device for a specific purpose. For those who haven't heard of it, mmWave is a relatively new technology and works like a radar. It transmits a radio wave and some time later, receives a reflected wave back. The information about objects can then be calculated using the difference between these two waves. However, the strength of mmWave is that it is very high frequency so it can detect movements of just a few mm, including breath signals from humans as well as unevenness in terrain!
Instead of the normal approach of including vibrational information for everything in your surroundings, which can often be overwhelming, difficult to understand/learn and generally impractical I'd like to instead focus on a specific feature so that the sensor is only used when needed instead of all the time. After viewing some comments about other devices these features have come to mind and I'd be very grateful for any comments you may have on these, whether or not you would actually consider them useful and of course any other suggestions or thoughts would be greatly appreciated!
\- Detecting what seats are free in a train or bus
\- Giving feedback (likely vibrational) on whether an object is soft or hard
\- Detecting the number of humans in a room and the ranges
\- Giving feedback (likely vibrational) on whether an object is in front or above you
\- Only detecting certain types of objects including a filter so the user can choose what they want detected
\- Any other suggestions
​
I have looked at some current devices, namely the WeWalk Cane, the Sunu Band, the Navibelt and the Wayband, and most of the devices work in a very similar way. They use ultrasound sensors to give you information on everything in your surroundings and some of these also connect to your phone and the navigational apps on there. I gather that most of the thoughts on some of these devices is that they are overloaded with unnecessary features which aren't useful, bump the price up and the power usage. Also, there is too much information from various objects that mean if you are walking down a street with parked cars on one side and walls on the other you're just getting constant vibrations.
I have been in contact with Northern UK Charity Henshaw's and the biggest takeaways from our meeting was that devices should only ever supplement the cane, they should not replace it or even be attached to it. Additionally, there are lots of different types of visual impairment (light sensitivity, nightblindess, loss of central vision, loss of peripheral vision etc.) with a smaller percentage being blind and within that, an even smaller percentage of people willing to adopt new technology, particularly if it has a steep learning curve. Because of this, I would like to try and constrain the problem from everything in the surroundings to a specific feature, meaning the learning curve is easier, price and power usage is lower and it may be useful to more people than just the completely blind.
Instead of the normal approach of including vibrational information for everything in your surroundings, which can often be overwhelming, difficult to understand/learn and generally impractical I'd like to instead focus on a specific feature so that the sensor is only used when needed instead of all the time. After viewing some comments about other devices these features have come to mind and I'd be very grateful for any comments you may have on these, whether or not you would actually consider them useful and of course any other suggestions or thoughts would be greatly appreciated!
\- Detecting what seats are free in a train or bus
\- Giving feedback (likely vibrational) on whether an object is soft or hard
\- Detecting the number of humans in a room and the ranges
\- Giving feedback (likely vibrational) on whether an object is in front or above you
\- Only detecting certain types of objects including a filter so the user can choose what they want detected
\- Any other suggestions
​
I have looked at some current devices, namely the WeWalk Cane, the Sunu Band, the Navibelt and the Wayband, and most of the devices work in a very similar way. They use ultrasound sensors to give you information on everything in your surroundings and some of these also connect to your phone and the navigational apps on there. I gather that most of the thoughts on some of these devices is that they are overloaded with unnecessary features which aren't useful, bump the price up and the power usage. Also, there is too much information from various objects that mean if you are walking down a street with parked cars on one side and walls on the other you're just getting constant vibrations.
I have been in contact with Northern UK Charity Henshaw's and the biggest takeaways from our meeting was that devices should only ever supplement the cane, they should not replace it or even be attached to it. Additionally, there are lots of different types of visual impairment (light sensitivity, nightblindess, loss of central vision, loss of peripheral vision etc.) with a smaller percentage being blind and within that, an even smaller percentage of people willing to adopt new technology, particularly if it has a steep learning curve. Because of this, I would like to try and constrain the problem from everything in the surroundings to a specific feature, meaning the learning curve is easier, price and power usage is lower and it may be useful to more people than just the completely blind.
retrolental_morose 5 points 1y ago
Hi,
I teach tech to blind students and am totally blind myself. I had a guide dog for almost a decade and now rely on a white cane.
It sounds like there's amazing potential here, almost limited only by the things you could filter for. In your examples, empty seats would be the most useful to me personally, although from a software engineering standpoint I'm kinda drooling. Also something I could wear or attach and configure to warn me about overhanging objects without going off whenever I walk passed a wall would be kinda neat.
Is there any scope for detecting a specific item? I'm thinking of the age-old problem of 2 blind people arranging to meet in a specific spot and neither being able to see the other. Or a blind person new to an area learning to find their own home, without an ability to yet identify their specific gate, doorway etc. If there was a particular type of hard-wearing item you could stick somewhere and get vibratory directional feedback to it, that'd be cool. I could stick one to my garden wall, perhaps one side of my local buss stop or so on. A bluetooth beacon, essentially, but without batteries because it's a purely reflective system. In fact, having one attached to my kids school bag, so when she goes hairing off up the road faster than I can keep up with her, I'd still no she was safe. Or something my wife and I could each wear, giving us a single-press way of knowing approximate direction and or distance to the other should we get separated in a crowd etc. Lots of interesting potential here.
I teach tech to blind students and am totally blind myself. I had a guide dog for almost a decade and now rely on a white cane.
It sounds like there's amazing potential here, almost limited only by the things you could filter for. In your examples, empty seats would be the most useful to me personally, although from a software engineering standpoint I'm kinda drooling. Also something I could wear or attach and configure to warn me about overhanging objects without going off whenever I walk passed a wall would be kinda neat.
Is there any scope for detecting a specific item? I'm thinking of the age-old problem of 2 blind people arranging to meet in a specific spot and neither being able to see the other. Or a blind person new to an area learning to find their own home, without an ability to yet identify their specific gate, doorway etc. If there was a particular type of hard-wearing item you could stick somewhere and get vibratory directional feedback to it, that'd be cool. I could stick one to my garden wall, perhaps one side of my local buss stop or so on. A bluetooth beacon, essentially, but without batteries because it's a purely reflective system. In fact, having one attached to my kids school bag, so when she goes hairing off up the road faster than I can keep up with her, I'd still no she was safe. Or something my wife and I could each wear, giving us a single-press way of knowing approximate direction and or distance to the other should we get separated in a crowd etc. Lots of interesting potential here.
philipmasters18 [OP] 1 points 1y ago
First of all, thank you very much for this reply! It is full of very useful information for me, both things
I hadn't considered as well as improvements for some vague ideas I already had and I'm glad to hear that you teach tech :)
I'm glad to hear that the seats one initially seems the most useful as I think this is likely a feature mmWave is best suited for. mmWave can detect something as specific as breath signals, meaning it's good at differentiating between an object and a human which is suited for empty seat detection.
As for specific item detection, this is definitely possible with humans as once a human has been detected, there are lots of algorithms for keeping track of this person out there which would work well with your suggestion of blind people meeting up which is a great one, particularly since there's so much scope and possibility! As long as they're not too far apart this should be doable and information could be given back to the user that's quite straightforward. At a reasonable distance, mmWave may even be able to tell the difference between a person with a cane and a person without a cane. Additionally, if you had both people using the device a lot of potential possibilities open up through device-device communication and possibly having software that 'remembers' the detection of this person for quicker detection in the future, or if you have this 'saved' you could do detection specifically for this person although this would be a fair bit further down the road I think.
I was just wondering, for the age old problem of blind people meeting up and not being able to find each other, is the problem more getting to the specific spot or is it more, getting to that general area and then not being able to find each other once you're in that general area?
However, I think the issue of doing this in crowds is that once you start trying to detect above \~10-15m the resolution suffers which means it is harder to differentiate and it might confuse the person you want to detect with someone else as the distance between you increases.
Although, mmWave can definitely detect and track specific items it might get a bit more difficult and less effective for non-static objects such as gates, driveways etc. Detecting them wouldn't be a problem but differentiating between one gate and another gate might be difficult. However, a two sensor approach would probably overcome this, for instance using mmWave and a small camera.
This idea of beacons is really cool and I haven't seen any devices really utilising this and as you say, communication shouldn't be difficult as Bluetooth or Wi-Fi is everywhere these days. I think for mmWave however, this might be quite difficult purely due to the range of these devices. That being said though, including a little computer like a Raspberry Pi means you have access to GPS which would mean range wouldn't be as much of a problem anymore and you could still incorporate some of the other features such as empty seat detection, other visually impaired person detection as well as having this more long term directional info.
I'm glad to hear that the seats one initially seems the most useful as I think this is likely a feature mmWave is best suited for. mmWave can detect something as specific as breath signals, meaning it's good at differentiating between an object and a human which is suited for empty seat detection.
As for specific item detection, this is definitely possible with humans as once a human has been detected, there are lots of algorithms for keeping track of this person out there which would work well with your suggestion of blind people meeting up which is a great one, particularly since there's so much scope and possibility! As long as they're not too far apart this should be doable and information could be given back to the user that's quite straightforward. At a reasonable distance, mmWave may even be able to tell the difference between a person with a cane and a person without a cane. Additionally, if you had both people using the device a lot of potential possibilities open up through device-device communication and possibly having software that 'remembers' the detection of this person for quicker detection in the future, or if you have this 'saved' you could do detection specifically for this person although this would be a fair bit further down the road I think.
I was just wondering, for the age old problem of blind people meeting up and not being able to find each other, is the problem more getting to the specific spot or is it more, getting to that general area and then not being able to find each other once you're in that general area?
However, I think the issue of doing this in crowds is that once you start trying to detect above \~10-15m the resolution suffers which means it is harder to differentiate and it might confuse the person you want to detect with someone else as the distance between you increases.
Although, mmWave can definitely detect and track specific items it might get a bit more difficult and less effective for non-static objects such as gates, driveways etc. Detecting them wouldn't be a problem but differentiating between one gate and another gate might be difficult. However, a two sensor approach would probably overcome this, for instance using mmWave and a small camera.
This idea of beacons is really cool and I haven't seen any devices really utilising this and as you say, communication shouldn't be difficult as Bluetooth or Wi-Fi is everywhere these days. I think for mmWave however, this might be quite difficult purely due to the range of these devices. That being said though, including a little computer like a Raspberry Pi means you have access to GPS which would mean range wouldn't be as much of a problem anymore and you could still incorporate some of the other features such as empty seat detection, other visually impaired person detection as well as having this more long term directional info.
Laser_Lens_4 2 points 1y ago
I was ready to tear you a new one, but this is actually pretty cool. I would use this
philipmasters18 [OP] 1 points 1y ago
Thank you! This is great to hear
zersiax 2 points 1y ago
I'd use this, I'm pretty sure :) It's clear you've done your research and aren't just trying to make version 69.. of the sonar cane as it were :) Curious how you get on.
philipmasters18 [OP] 1 points 1y ago
Brilliant, thank you! Really happy to hear that it's clear I've done research as was a bit concerned it might look like another of the hundreds of posts that just post like a survey link and nothing else lol
thatawkwardcosplayer 1 points 1y ago
Honestly? I’d want the ability to have it work on metal! The drain area for the ecolab dishwasher I use at work is constantly getting stuff stuck in it (think toothpicks or the pastry small knives the bakers use). And this is a SMALL area, I can hardly fit my hand in there. I’d like to be able to tell where the stuck object is without having to feel around in a 130F~ metal box for five minutes. (Seriously, I hate the toothpicks SO much).
Do you think this would be possible with that tech?
Do you think this would be possible with that tech?
philipmasters18 [OP] 1 points 1y ago
Whilst mmWave can penetrate through quite a lot I don't think this could penetrate metal. If there's a way of roughly looking into the drain area it might be possible?
thatawkwardcosplayer 2 points 1y ago
It’s open on two ends. Think like a box w/o a top or bottom.
philipmasters18 [OP] 1 points 1y ago
Oh OK, then I think this would definitely be doable! MmWave should be able to pick up items that small, it would have to separate the small item from other things but if its just for some objects (toothpicks etc.) it should be possible to train the device.
thatawkwardcosplayer 2 points 1y ago
Ooh!! That’s awesome!! I can also definitely see this being used for being able to tell the different parts under the machine. (Sometimes one must kick it like it’s a dying truck engine at Just The Right Spot.)
mapcasefiles 1 points 1y ago
I am curious as to the type of feedback your device would provide. Would it be a binary response (yes or no, beep or no beep) or would it intensify with the strength or proximity of what it's detecting?
philipmasters18 [OP] 1 points 1y ago
So I think after narrowing down to these features this is the next big consideration. I guess it depends on the situation but for instance, in the case of detecting free seats on a bus for instance I thought maybe a voice command directing you to the empty seat would be more useful than vibrations and wouldn't be too intrusive since you're on a bus.
​
However, if it was detecting objects above head height then I figured vibrations would be better as you don't want the device to cut off all other audio feedback. I did see someone suggest that instead of increasing vibration strength as you get closer to the object, it could be more useful to have vibrations based on where the object is, so you could have something wearable and if the top part vibrates the object is above you and if the bottom part vibrates it's infront of you? Within that you could have the vibrations getting stronger as you get closer to the object? My concern is that I want to make it as simple to understand as possible so was unsure whether this would be too much information or not.
​
However, if it was detecting objects above head height then I figured vibrations would be better as you don't want the device to cut off all other audio feedback. I did see someone suggest that instead of increasing vibration strength as you get closer to the object, it could be more useful to have vibrations based on where the object is, so you could have something wearable and if the top part vibrates the object is above you and if the bottom part vibrates it's infront of you? Within that you could have the vibrations getting stronger as you get closer to the object? My concern is that I want to make it as simple to understand as possible so was unsure whether this would be too much information or not.
1BlindNinja 1 points 1y ago
I stumbled across the new World function on the Seeing AI app. This allows a scan of a room and vocalises doors, tables, chairs windows etc. you can place a beacon. This I thought is a good idea. Something to drop a pin at a doorway would be useful, where you are going into a big building, to navigate back, especially if the building is new and you are getting a sighted guide to a specific place. Also, can we not pair these devices to our phones? This would keep the size down and allow for easier and less expensive development, rather than having to make a “whole” unit each time.
Sounds good, I used the Suno band and didn’t like it, it was too unpredictable and seemed to have a mind of its own. In an ideal world, glasses with a camera, liked to something like Seeing AI, distance, texture and people indication (as mentioned) and sound fed in via bone conduction or like Bose frames.
..okay, I’ll stop dreaming!
Sounds good, I used the Suno band and didn’t like it, it was too unpredictable and seemed to have a mind of its own. In an ideal world, glasses with a camera, liked to something like Seeing AI, distance, texture and people indication (as mentioned) and sound fed in via bone conduction or like Bose frames.
..okay, I’ll stop dreaming!
philipmasters18 [OP] 2 points 1y ago
I think the idea of dropping a pin is really good. I think just the sensor I'm using wouldn't be capable of doing it on it's own but I'm thinking once I get the core, smaller features down like simple object detection, something like what you have proposed could be done with GPS, so you can leave a pin that you can use as guidance with that and then for intermediate objects and stuff you could still use the mmWave radar.
I think for a feature as you suggested, you could use your phone since GPS is built up and this could be used for dropping pins. That way as well, if you just want the GPS part you can just use your phone and then buy the sensor separately if you want the other stuff as opposed to being forced to buy the entire device with a bunch of features that might not be relevant.
I think for a feature as you suggested, you could use your phone since GPS is built up and this could be used for dropping pins. That way as well, if you just want the GPS part you can just use your phone and then buy the sensor separately if you want the other stuff as opposed to being forced to buy the entire device with a bunch of features that might not be relevant.
1BlindNinja 1 points 1y ago
Yeah, you would want some kind of quick method of dropping a pin, as if you are being guided by someone in an environment, such as a hospital, university, company, you don’t want to be saying, oh, can you wait here a moment till I drop a pin. I know it is difficult to cater for everyone, but don’t know if some sort of a keyfob could purpose the basic options, which could be clipped onto your belt loop, pocket etc. I tend to find a lot of items very cumbersome, where like the band, you are swiping, tapping, and trying to get what you need, which if you are using a guide dog, it isn’t easy to free up all your hands to start phone scrolling, or fighting with a complex user interface. Sorry, I know it is a big ask, just trying to keep things handy.
….or, would a hand-held device, like a TV remote for example, with a wrist strap to keep it “at hand” you could scan the area, then free up your hand for using a cane/GD, easily hit a button to drop a pin, etc? 😂
….or, would a hand-held device, like a TV remote for example, with a wrist strap to keep it “at hand” you could scan the area, then free up your hand for using a cane/GD, easily hit a button to drop a pin, etc? 😂
philipmasters18 [OP] 2 points 1y ago
I like this idea and as you say it'd be good to be able to do this relatively hands free. I think this could work with these RFID tags and a simple scanner. That way you can pop the tag down and a little scanner could receive information from the tag, although distance could be an issue.
I think there should be a way of doing this without having to put a physical tag down which I'll look into. But I do think either way this would be possible with a few additions. Plus since they'd be separate devices in all likelihood, you don't have to buy the device with all the add ons, you could just purchase separately based on what you want
I think there should be a way of doing this without having to put a physical tag down which I'll look into. But I do think either way this would be possible with a few additions. Plus since they'd be separate devices in all likelihood, you don't have to buy the device with all the add ons, you could just purchase separately based on what you want
1BlindNinja 1 points 1y ago
This is music to my ears! One of the biggest barriers is the costs. Some devices cost 100s if not 1000s of £/$ and they release a new version each year or so. This is highly frustrating, since the old unit is defunct and worth little or nothing for resale. I never understood why mobiles can’t be utilised as much as possible for doing the heavy lifting, that way updating the phone will help with core processing, the add-ons would maybe even be recyclable or upgraded.
I use the WayAround tags for clothing etc, and fed back to the company a way to scan stuff without having to hit “read” each time. This is as I have my clothes tagged in the wardrobe hanging, I need to pull out the patch where the tag is, hit read, if not the item, repeat until found. A quicker method would be easier, and again, it is to speed up the process.when at an event, meeting a employer, going to an appointment, it is good to be easy and quick to use.
Integration into What 3 Words would be useful, to send that location to others to meet, if a pin was dropped. In other words, let’s meet back at the “location” as we don’t have the luxury of saying, “next to the plant in the blue plant pot!
I’m a tough customer! 😂 Other words could be used, but don’t be rude! 🤣)
I use the WayAround tags for clothing etc, and fed back to the company a way to scan stuff without having to hit “read” each time. This is as I have my clothes tagged in the wardrobe hanging, I need to pull out the patch where the tag is, hit read, if not the item, repeat until found. A quicker method would be easier, and again, it is to speed up the process.when at an event, meeting a employer, going to an appointment, it is good to be easy and quick to use.
Integration into What 3 Words would be useful, to send that location to others to meet, if a pin was dropped. In other words, let’s meet back at the “location” as we don’t have the luxury of saying, “next to the plant in the blue plant pot!
I’m a tough customer! 😂 Other words could be used, but don’t be rude! 🤣)
bradley22 1 points 1y ago
This does sound like an amazing tool.
Imagine scanning for a door and knowing it's open without having to use your cane, or a bench to sit down on, or quite a few other things.
Imagine scanning for a door and knowing it's open without having to use your cane, or a bench to sit down on, or quite a few other things.
philipmasters18 [OP] 1 points 1y ago
Thank you very much! These are great suggestions as I hadn't considered other similar situations to say finding empty seats on public transport but it should be very easy to expand this to any situation in which you want to know if there is a person there or not.
Also, I really like the door being open/closed detection idea as again mmWave is suited to this. Plus, other technologies like cameras and infrared can often struggle with the detection of glass doors but fortunately, this is something mmWave is good at.
EDIT: Grammar
Also, I really like the door being open/closed detection idea as again mmWave is suited to this. Plus, other technologies like cameras and infrared can often struggle with the detection of glass doors but fortunately, this is something mmWave is good at.
EDIT: Grammar
bradley22 1 points 1y ago
No problem.
EffectiveYak0 -1 points 1y ago
I don't think a new gizmo is going to help anyone.
What about taking all of this time and energy and making sure your local public spaces are accessible?
What about taking all of this time and energy and making sure your local public spaces are accessible?
retrolental_morose 3 points 1y ago
New gizmos always help. If nobody ever made any, we'd still be stuck at home tuning pianos and knitting wooly hats.
bradley22 2 points 1y ago
I completely agree, sure things may have been done before but people are always improving devices.
Just because you or I may not use them does not mean that they're not useful to others.
Just because you or I may not use them does not mean that they're not useful to others.
philipmasters18 [OP] 1 points 1y ago
Whilst this does sound infinitely more useful than any sort of device, the general idea sprang from a Computer Science and Electronic engineering project I'm doing in my final year
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