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Blind and Visually Impaired Community

Full History - 2021 - 12 - 10 - ID#rdlzqm
115
[Rant] Math makes me resent sighted people (self.Blind)
submitted by Laser_Lens_4
I don't like doing these, but I need to talk about my frustrations with people who actually get it. Maybe some good can come out of it. Maybe some blind math wiz will laugh and tell me I've done everything wrong and send me to a website that let's me do this all with perfect accessibility. so here goes.

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I'm one week away from completing a remedial math course in community college here in the states. I'm tired, stressed, angry, and want it to end... oh, and I'm insane enough to pursue a computer science degree, so I've got years of math ahead. Let me tell you a bit about my math story as a blind woman.

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I was terrible at math in grade school. In retrospect, it was probably because I spent so much effort on squinting at all the weird symbols that I had no time left to actually learn the content. Now that I'm in college and using a sight-free workflow, I'm actually getting it. The most surreal event so far is learning logarithms and understanding it easily whilst vividly remembering sitting in high school and being thoroughly confused.

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So where's the rant? Well, the entire past 16 weeks have been an exercise in misery. So, I walk into class, introduce myself to the instructor, and listen to him talk about math for an hour and a half. I go home to try homework online. What do I find? Not LaTeX, not MathML, but some proprietary code on Cengage's website. It's not too bad at first, but mind you absolutely nobody showed me how to use this website, so the first week consisted of me aimlessly navigating by headings and form fields. Then we hit exponents and quadratics. NVDA straight up didn't read superscripts. Thus begins my first email chain bitching at disability workers and web devs. They tell me to use Firefox and Math Player with NVDA, so that means I have to switch browsers, install software, and count my lucky stars that I know how to use NVDA since they provided no instruction for that. Fine, right? Nope. I have to switch the math renderer on the website to MathML, oh and they had to create a duplicate course where everything had been made accessible. So you know, separate but equal... just like the 60's! But wait, there's more. I couldn't switch the renderer myself. I had to have a sighted person physically right-click on an equation to switch the renderer over. Why MathML isn't the standard, and why this feature is locked behind something blind people can't access (even though it's meant for blind people) is beyond me.

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So the renderer is finally switched over. No longer are fractions simply different sets of coefficients with line breaks in between. No longer must I press an arrow key after typing an exponent with no verbal feedback whatsoever. Great, right? No. Now I can't copy/paste, oh and the math shows up partly as UEB math on my braille display and partly as computer Braille. Listen, I dunno who thought deprecating computer braille was a good idea, but they need to be fired. I write code. I work in command lines. Working in UEB on a Linux bash prompt is insanity, but I digress. So now, I'm in a situation where I can no longer read the problems on my display, can no longer copy/paste them into a text editor, and to add insult to injury each section of each problem uses a level 4 heading, so I can't just jump from problem to problem anymore. Oh, and half the answers once I max out my attempts still read "graphic. webmathematica-generated answer key". This might as well be a picture of a middle finger for all the good it does me.

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So, there I am, punching numbers into my $650 talking TI-84 Plus (not even the silver edition or CE model), reading equations on my $3000 Braille terminal that the government paid for, and... oh, graphs. Great.

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"Sketch a graph using the following function." "Choose a graph below that best matches the following function." "Write a function that best matches this graph." How about fuck you and give me numbers? I hate working with Wikki sticks. They leave a residue on my fingers that I can't possibly imagine is good for my Braille cells, unstick from the bubble paper they gave me, and it's hard to draw precise lines. Sometimes I lose my place on the paper and have to start counting again. Then there are inequality functions. Ah yes, allow me to shade regions of the quadrant plane and create dashed lines with fucking Wikki sticks. Whenever I need to graph a point, I use pins that routinely fall over at the lightest touch, even with a corkboard backing. So, how bout them quadratics? I like them. Really, I do, but if somebody asks me to estimate the vertex from a series of points one more time, I think I might throw the paper in their face. Estimate? Why the fuck would I estimate when I can plug points into a quadratic function in vertex form and do it algebraically? The Sonograph feature on the TI-84 is helpful, but nowhere near precise enough to assist me. Well, I made it through somehow, and I found exponentials to be much easier to understand. I also realized that the table and stat plot functions of the calculator are immensely helpful, and way faster than waiting for the thing to graph them. Not like graphing a radical function with an odd index will do me much good. I need the numbers anyway, so plug that into y=, hit tbl, and tell trace, graph, and zoom to piss off. That said, stat plots in the trace view are really, really helpful for spatial positioning of raw data... provided it's not some insanely complex scatter plot.

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Test day rolls around. Is it on a computer? Nope. It's on paper with a test proctor... that doesn't know math. So, here I am, writing out equations on my braille display, reading them aloud, having them copy it down, going back because they said it wrong, restating it, and finally moving on. Sometimes I come home so exhausted that I literally can't do anything else that day. This is my first math course done entirely in Braille. It's rough. It feels like I'm rewiring my brain. In class, I've a laptop running NVDA and Notepad++ with some Aftershokz on my head to listen to it. I periodically have to restart NVDA because the plugin that prevents my headphones going to sleep breaks. On top of that, I'm also managing a Braille display. On top of that, I've also got a talking calculator chattering into my left ear all while the instructor reads equations out loud that are so long that they don't fit on my display. SOmetimes students break into groups to solve more complex equations on the board. If I step more than 5 or 6 feet from my laptop, the bluetooth connection on my Braille display starts having hiccups. Nice work, Freedom-Scientific. 3 grand and you can't even make a solid connection. Who knows, maybe there's interference or something. Then again, I had to install a custom driver just so I could use the stupid thing with something other than JAWS. One day, I tried using my iPhone to take math notes because lugging around a 5-pound laptop designed for gaming and a glowing snakehead logo is... cumbersome. Well, turns out computer Braille support with a bluetooth hardware display on iOS is shit. Thanks Apple. Back to hauling a spicy pillow around.

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I've had meeting after meeting to discuss what my needs are. I'm so tired of this. I'm so tired of working thrice as hard as everyone else and still be forced to run to catch up. I can do math. The fact I stumbled through this course and somehow enjoyed it shows that blind people can do this. Usually I encounter people who are reluctant to make things accessible. This was a new kind of frustration where they were willing to work with me, but the fact I had to tell these people how to do their jobs is a type of ablism I hadn't quite experienced yet.. I tried taking this course last semester but dropped out because the shiny new MacBook I bought has garbage Braille support, so that was about 2 grand wasted. Thankfully, I sold it and now am much happier with a Razer Blade that I use for school and for audio work.

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I should take a moment to explain why I don't use UEB math or Nemeth code. The latter is because I never learned it, have no resources for learning it, and even if I did, I don't have any software that can provide real-time translation into text. The former isn't for a lack of resources, but for the fact that I find it extremely confusing, and all of the ancillary characters often mean that equations are longer in UEB math than in computer Braille. My ability to solve equations easily drops dramatically if they don't fit onto the Braille display without having to pan. I also find that screen reader support for UEB math is severely lacking once you go beyond basic arithmetic. So fuck it. Programming languages are turing-complete and they manage just fine with qwerty keyboard characters and computer Braille is about as close as I'll get to a 1:1 braille-to-text transcription in real-time. And no, I am NOT taking notes in LaTeX. I need my math to be concise and quick, not pretty. Maybe I can do my homework in it once I get into Calculus or whatever, but that shit ain't gonna fly in the classroom.

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The last big hurdle I experienced was 2 weeks ago when we got to the subject of polynomial long division and synthetic division. It was going all great... right up until I realized I literally could not type this into my text editor. I gave up, faffed around the whole lesson, and didn't come in the next two days because of how depressed it made me. I still don't know how to do polynomial long division, and I probably never will. Actually, this is the first time I've had to take days (yes, multiple) off from class because of how tired or depressing it got to deal with the accessibility bullshit... oh and then I got covid, so I had to study 2 chapter entirely on my own. Ever try to learn math from websites? Yeah, 99% of them are inaccessible. "clickable plus clickable 2 equals clickable clickable clickable clickable. Now we add clickable and clickable to get clickable". Yeah, fuck you too. I did it though. I learned both chapters... somehow.

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So, how does this rant end? Well, the other day, I sent support a message asking about why I still couldn't copy and paste equations. Apparently they just "missed" my email where I sent it. I snapped. I've had enough of this, so I cussed them out and ended the conversation. I'm not sure how to feel about all of this. Angry? Accomplished? Tired? Frustrated? This is basically high school algebra. It's not hard, but I'm still exhausted. Frustration, meetings, long nights, hours doing something it'd take a sighted person minutes. Why do I need 6000 fucking dollars of equipment just to find X or whatever? Why am I not offered these things from the start? Why is it my responsibility to dive through reddit posts and listservs to learn that Wikki sticks exist at all when there's an entire office on campus whose job it is to make things accessible? I've never experienced this much resentment toward sighted people. Not even in the music course I took the previous semester.

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So, how've I managed to get through despite all of this? Well, it probably helps that I'm neurodivergent and I like numbers, but it was mostly trial, error, screaming, crying, swearing, caffeine, and weed. Like, a lot of weed. Thank goodness I live in a legal state.

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Oh right, the book was never made accessible to me. Better hope I was able to learn everything from lectures and the provided videos. We're covering circles and sideways parabolas just before the final. I'm sure listening to the highly verbose captions on graphs that overload my brain with information will be thrilling. Also pro tip, don't listen to their garbage about factor trees? Want to factor a big number? Divide it by prime numbers until you can no longer divide into smaller numbers... or just get a python function to do it for you.
OldManOnFire 32 points 1y ago
Math is hard. Being blind is hard. Together they're really, really hard.

I used to teach college algebra and first semester calculus. I'm happy to tutor you for free.
lostLight21 13 points 1y ago
I don't think sighted people are at fault here.

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I think it's more of an accessibility problem than anything really. I agree, it takes a sighted person a minute to solve an equation you solve in 5 or 10 minutes, and sometimes it's not even possible to solve them because of histograms and what, ugh I hate those.

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I personally didn't find a way to read histograms, as in translate them into numbers I can actually understand.

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Since I'm into data science, I have to do stuff like visual exploration, matrix vectorization, graphs and a lot more that honestly make me want to quit sometimes.

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To be honest, if I was doing my own project, I wouldn't care about visual exploration, creating graphs and what not, but in the real world, I have no other choice, because whether we like it or not, a picture is worth a thousand words.

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What I found helpful is that if I'm the one who's making the graphs there is always a way to convert the numbers into a dataframe of some sort for me to read, and then plot them, that way I know what is it I'm plotting.

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I think math will remain a torture for us no matter what, we're still wouldn't be able to say solve equations fast, or find a way to read graphs without having the raw data for it, because it's just an image after all.

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What I will tell you is that I know it's hard, but don't give up. When I was taking a course and had to make a histogram for a dataset, I didn't even know how. I wasn't even sure if what I would make resembles one, or if it's the right kind of histogram even.

At that point I was depressed and I really wanted to quit at the first sign of dealing with graphs, because logically, it's impossible for us to see them. I thought that would be the end of my love for data science just right where it began. I was able to get help with that one, and later on I learned how to make them with python. I still haven't found a solution for everything, but I want to say I'm making progress.

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I think if you made it this far and you managed to deal with all kind of accessibility problems, yet you still have some hope, I'm proud of you.
07734willy 1 points 1y ago
Regarding these comments:

> I personally didn't find a way to read histograms, as in translate them into numbers I can actually understand.

> Since I'm into data science, I have to do stuff like visual exploration, matrix vectorization, graphs and a lot more that honestly make me want to quit sometimes.

-I do have an idea. You could potentially use various pitches to represent the weight of each bin, as opposed to a visual bar or straight up integer value. This may provide a nice auditory mechanism to detect points of inflection, outliers, and just get a general feel for the distribution.

Not quite the same think, but people have created auditory demonstrations of sorting algorithms for fun to "show what algorithms sound like", which kinda falls in a similar category. Example $1- the larger bins are assigned higher pitches, and are played whenever they're moved or set into position. Its kinda an incomprehensible mess for the sorting algorithms, but I suspect in a linear left-to-right histogram, it'd be pretty easy to pick up on the a bell curve of a normal distribution as the pitch spikes and then settles back down.
i_am_extra_syrup 10 points 1y ago
Omg, so sorry you have to go through this. It killed me to read your story. :( This is exactly why I follow this sub so that I can learn directly from the source and become a better ally and accessibility specialist some day. If you ever need to run anything web / tech related by someone don’t hesitate to msg me. Hugs.
cebeezly82 8 points 1y ago
As a visual learner who went blind towards the beginning of college Math is fucked! I have taken many math courses from trig to finite. I basically had to generate my own math language because I don't know math braille and believe it or not math is inaccessible to a screen reader in the 21st century. When you move towards higher level math you have a huge problem because every math language uses these snippets where you cannot navigate a huge equation character by character, but rather you have to listen to Microsoft sam ramble out this massive friggan equation while being expected to memorize that shit like some savant or something. Can't even pass the teaching licensure exam for this reason. It's bullshit, and if someone could solve the math problem we suffer because of they would be a fuckin millionaire. Good luck, and wish you the best.
CloudsOfMagellan 1 points 1y ago
Learn latex
HeftyCryptographer21 1 points 1y ago
dude, just learn braille. I get that people work and it is hard to find the time and stuff, but it truly makes it so much easier.
cebeezly82 2 points 1y ago
I'm 39 years old I'm past that point. I know Braille won I just don't have time to advance the Braille too just to do math
HeftyCryptographer21 1 points 1y ago
fair enough.
CabbRed 7 points 1y ago
I recognize a whole lot of what you're describing here. I went through this, and pursued a master's degree in computer science. It is really frustrating, and it is truly a challenge at times.

One thing that really frustrated me was when people think that there is only one right way to reach an end goal. For eample, I've had people tell me I can't be an engineer if I can't solve this certain problem in a certain visual way (typically using graphs). Well, if I can solve the problem, and communicate the solution, and present a solid reasoning of how I got there, who cares whether I drew pretty lines or not??? Oh, and for the sighted people who need some visual aids, I can use software to output pretty graphs.

I became an engineer, and later a PhD, and you know what, I still can't do polynomial long division! Neither can I pilot a space shuttle, at least I've nveer tried to. But I can solve many math problems.
Iamheno 7 points 1y ago
WTF! Your disabled student services is actually worse than ours is!?! Well, maybe. . . Sorry you’ve had to go through this. It sounds like they need to hire a CATIS at your school.
BaylisAscaris 6 points 1y ago
Ugh, I'm so sorry you have to deal with all that. It sounds exhausting and overwhelming. I teach math and I'm happy to explain polynomial long division or any other concepts you're having trouble with. I can explain it here or through private message if you would like, or answer any questions, now or in the future.
JaymeJammer 4 points 1y ago
Awesome rant. I can appreciate it on many levels, as I work with schools to teach them how to provide appropriate and adequate services instead of the so-called services you describe. I wish your story was the exception, but it is unfortunately way too common.

Sorry this last round has been so hard, but for what it's worth, I think you're kicking ass.

I also worked with a blind woman who was similar to you in that she learned to code and succeed in online courses that were largely inaccessible. She still takes courses each semester. She actually got hired to be an alternative media specialist and convert materials for students with disabilities at one of the local colleges.

It sounds like you're coping skills are excellent, thanks again for sharing, good luck, and keep kicking ass!
ColonelKepler 4 points 1y ago
I'm sorry I have nothing helpful to say, but I find it interesting that you hate UEB when reading CLI output. For me it's the exact opposite; I feel like computer braille is too ambiguous, not to mention that the text takes up way more space. I know nothing about UEB math, though.
Altie-McAltface 3 points 1y ago
You may already be aware of Desmos. It's a pretty accessible web-based graphing calculator.

$1

Cengage is also pretty crappy. I sometimes use Kindle when an up to date textbook isn't available on Bookshare. I bought some book they published for an IT course, and it wouldn't work with any screen reader. IIRC because of the SNAFU between Amazon and the authors' guild back in 2009ish Publishers have the option to make their books inaccessible. Can't remember if it's opt in or opt out. If it's opt out, that means a human being had to check a box that essentially said "No blind people allowed."
zersiax 3 points 1y ago
So ...I can't fix your situation, but I can point you to some resources I've heard other blind people have at least some success with. those are the notes over here:

$1

As well as the free textbooks over at OpenStax which I am reasonably sure use MathML. I don't know if they cover what you need to know, but at least it gives you some more tools.
CloudsOfMagellan 2 points 1y ago
kahn Academy also have some good resources
And the Feynman lecture notes are accessible pretty much once you turn on math ml although superscripts and brackets can still be iffy
zersiax 3 points 1y ago
That is absolutely ridiculous ... It makes me sad that in this day and age people apparently still don't find it all that necessary to educate people who are supposed to educate others about these kinds of things. As a student you really aren't supposed to have to figure all this stuff out by yourself but that is exactly what we have to do and it's maddening.

Math has unfortunately always been a stumbling block for me because I had a terrible string of teachers for it in high school, and after high school I went into informatics, which is essentially watered down computer science.

Even there you find this kind of crap, though, although the situation here is rather different. We don't have a disability services department whatsoever; we have to arrange things like extra time during exams with the school's dean or other high-ranked person by ourselves and hope for the best, with all the consequences thereof.

This means I had such gems of conversations as a half-hour back-and-forth with a web dev teacher to explain that no, making a moodboard in photosshop wasn't going to fly without help, and no, screen readers really don't know how to deal with that kind of output. This kind of thing is tiring, it beats you down and I have been close to giving up several times because of all this kind of stone-walled lack of caring I ran into. If you as a disabled student can't follow the material a teacher presents, that is your problem, your fault, and you are going to have to fix it because the teacher has no idea how to help you. If you can't do it, tough luck, try again next year. Got a problem? Talk to the dean who also won't know how to help. You're on your own, and you're the person who has to teach the teacher how to teach you a subject you don't know yet. Your tools don't match the teacher's because they're inaccessible? Well ... I teach using these tools, so no idea how to help you with yours. And on and on it goes.

Honestly, your rant here is warranted and I wish I had a silver bullet for you, because f\*ck, you deserve a break, but this is way outside my area of expertise. I'll get some eyes on this from peeps who may know more though, that's the least I can do.
ExcelnFaelth 3 points 1y ago
Sighted, recent grad of math here.
OP, so sorry you are dealing with this shitshow. I actually joined this subreddit specifically because while going through math, I wondered how the visually impaired even thought about upper level mathematical constructs, such as complex variables and abstract algebra. Nothing in math should be sight dependent, there might be a lot of improvement to be made in the way we think about math if we weren't limited by sight.
diglyd 2 points 1y ago
Maybe this is something you can make your career into and your specialization. Help improve this area that apparently needs a lot of improvement.
blindchickruns 3 points 1y ago
I hugs you.
idiotracist 2 points 1y ago
I'm a sighted software developer, but know there are many blind devs. Just want to throw out that if you get out of the academy and into the industry there is very little math involved.
EffectiveYak0 1 points 1y ago
\+1 to this. I work in the industry.

Also you don't have to have a computer science degree to be a dev.
DrillInstructorJan 2 points 1y ago
The description of being exhausted by it all is something I totally get. I am a musician and I spend a lot of time trying to get access to charts (that is, sheet music) without any real practical hope of it being available in some accessible format, even if I knew braille, which I don't. I wanted to send a private message to someone here on Reddit last night after reading one she had sent to me and I just couldn't handle even that because the week had just kicked my ass so hard.

So in the end I am torn between enormous admiration for your going through all this pain and suffering for something you are good at, and thinking this is sticking your head in a blast furnace and complaining it's a bit hot. Math is going to involve diagrams and equations and that is not friendly to you or me. I take the position that I will work as hard as is necessary to do things I want to do, and hang the consequences. On the other hand I will accept at some sufficient level of insanity there are battles worth fighting and battles not worth fighting. To me this would not be worth it, to you clearly it is, but yes the exhaustion is real. So very real.

Sleep well, I know you will.
Mr-Woodtastic 2 points 1y ago
Wow, this sounds like hell on earth, I'm also very confused about how all of the people who are supposed to help just didn't? If I was the teacher I would of been asking you exactly what you needed from day one and bending over backwards to revise anything and everything to work for you, but unfortunately all I can do is give fake internet points, I am also completely free until late March so if you need any help I guess you could dm me and I'd be happy to help you in any way I could
[deleted] 1 points 1y ago
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bradley22 1 points 1y ago
I’m shit at maths, but I can’t blame sighted people for that. Yeah their way of doing things is different to ours but as others have said, that’s an accessibility thing.
[deleted] 1 points 1y ago
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