How do people blind from birth think about sight?(self.Blind)
submitted by lisper
I'm a sighted person writing a book about the scientific method. It occurred to me that a lot of the things that I take for granted as being true are actually heavily dependent on my ability to see. For example, I believe the moon exists because I can "see it with my own eyes" as they say. But someone who is blind obviously cannot see the moon, or anything else. So... how does a blind person become convinced of (say) the existence of the moon or the stars or the planets? When I say, "I can see the moon" what does that even *mean* to someone who has been blind from birth? Any insight (no pun intended!) that people here could give me on this would be much appreciated.
[UPDATE] I thought I should mention: I have $1 so I may end up being blind some day.
Tarnagona6 points1y ago
First, many people who are blind still have some usable vision. So, although I’m blind, I can still see the moon to verify it’s existence.
Second, we live in a sighted world, and are well aware that sighted people see more than us. So if all the sighted people I know and trust talk about seeing the moon, I can be reasonably confident that the moon is there. I’m not seeing it firsthand, true, but have enough consistent secondhand accounts to take it as true.
Otherwise, we take plenty of things as true that we can’t verify with our own senses. The roundness of the Earth. The existence of bacteria, DNA, molecules and other tiny tiny things. The existence of other galaxies. All of these, we have verified through experimentation and specialized equipment, and cannot experience with our unaided senses, but still take as true.
lisper [OP]4 points1y ago
> Otherwise, we take plenty of things as true that we can’t verify with our own senses.
Sure, but you have to decide where to place your trust somehow. I suppose that this:
> we live in a sighted world, and are well aware that sighted people see more than us.
is the answer I was looking for. Thanks!
Tarnagona8 points1y ago
It’s not that different than sighted people deciding to trust other sighted people who have more expertise. Like, we trust biologists when they tell us about DNA, or doctors when they tell us about bacteria and viruses. No sighted person can see those with the naked eye, either. But we trust that the experts, after their years of study, know what they’re talking about.
I may have to trust more people, such as trusting that my sighted friends are giving me an honest answer when I ask what colour something is. But that’s not really different than trusting a friend when they tell you about something that happened to them that you didn’t witness. So it doesn’t seem to me like we’re making an extra leap of trust, really. We’re doing the same as everybody else, just sometimes in different contexts than other people.
lisper [OP]3 points1y ago
Well, not everyone trusts the experts, or at least not the same experts. I hang out on /r/creation, which is chock-full of people who don't believe in mainstream science, and they have a whole community of experts of their own. In my book I am trying to start from a set of common experiences that all humans have first-hand access to.
I guess nowadays one could build a "braille camera" that translates images into something tactile so that a blind person could "see the moon with their own fingers". Maybe someone has already done this? Or maybe I should just talk about the sun, whose presence even a blind person can feel without any technological assistance.
ColonelKepler5 points1y ago
Apologies if I come off a little rude, but when you entertain the idea that we (those totally blind from birth) might not be convinced of the existence of celestial bodies because we can't "feel" them, it sounds like you may be under the impression that we can't think or reason in the same way that you do. As the parent commenter pointed out, we are aware from a very young age that others have a sensation we don't. A totally blind child could easily figure this out, because (assuming they're the only blind one around) everyone else would "know" things they didn't (the placement of objects, for a simple example), but could verify. It might take a while for them to figure out exactly *what* it is that others have and they don't, assuming no one told them, but they would know *something* was different, and could experiment with it, if so inclined.
So, Occam's razor: if *everyone* is talking about the moon and the sun and whatnot (I should also point out that simply feeling heat would give a blind person no clue as to what the sun actually is) and I know and can verify that they have vision, either what everyone else sees exists, or...they're all just talking about these things to deceive me? The latter doesn't make sense.
As a slightly relevant anecdote, I once had a therapist tell me "If no one told you, you wouldn't know you were blind." Bullshit!
Tarnagona2 points1y ago
I’m well aware not everyone trusts the experts, or puts their trust in people claiming to be experts who really aren’t. The COVID pandemic has made that abundantly clear. But all of those people are still relying on someone else to tell them things they can’t verify themselves, whether that’s scientists or the Bible.
Again, if I can’t see something, I can have it described, whether by another person, or now, by AI (with greater or lesser success). Even if I was absurdly skeptical of literally everyone around my, the fact we have camera to take pictures and computers that can take that raw data and describe an image is another way to verify that literally all the people aren’t lying about seeing things.
I guess if you’re looking for examples of things a totally blind person can verify as easily as a sighted person, you have to stick close to home. You can verify the existence of other people by the sounds of their voice and them moving around, or by touching them. There is no celestial body that you can verify by touching. The sun is warm but without a description you wouldn’t really know what that warm is. But we learn about the sun from an early age, and would need a very compelling reason as to why we shouldn’t believe literally everyone when they describe the sun as a fiery ball of light in the sky. You could ask 100 strangers for a description of the sun (or moon) and get the same description from each. Is it reasonable to think everyone is lying about what’s in the sky? I don’t think so.
moonpegasus195 points1y ago
Sight is a concept we only have vague notions of in a certain sense. I personally know what bright lights look like to my eyes, but that was due to a set of extraordinary circumstances when I got older and understood what it was supposed to be like from a scientific point of view only. I don't experience any of the details of that light and even if it's bright it appears very dim to me. At least I think. It's like how an astronaut can tell us how it feels to be weightless for an extended period of time, but because the rest of us have never had that experience, or anything like that, we just have to take what he said at face value. If we know he hasn't lied about something, or most astronauts can relate the same experience then we take that as truth. In the case of the moon and stars, we can never see them, and we also can't touch the light, but because the rest of the world has in depth knowledge of these things and everyone lying at the same time would be extremely improbable, we can come to the conclusion that the moon exists, however we don't have any knowledge of how these things look over the planet. We just have knowledge from other sources. so let's say we had to give an exact description of things like that. We might get a few details wrong or have it positioned in the wrong way. As kids we generally try and get as much informational and descriptive knowledge as we can to fill in the gaps, but it's definitely not enough to give a clear and accurate picture since we lack the fundamental knowledge to form it. One of my favorite books as a kid was a book called "Touch the Stars" it had as a forward, a discription of what the sky looked like. That was new knowledge to me. Also something that hasn't been talked about much is that representations can help fill in the gap a bit as well and generally are used so that someone can experience, for example, what the phases of the moon look like in the sky, but because they are representations they have limited usefulness because they are not the real thing. I will give one more example. Let's say you have a representation of a duck, but the duck is in profile, and the duck you're feeling is just molded plastic. There will be some details you can get from the duck, but others will be wrong and not something found on a real duck. So until you get to feel a real duck, the thing that get's conjured in your mind is the plastic duck and the sound of a duck because you've heard that before. That's what it's like in our world. If sighted people didn't exist, there would be things the world wouldn't have figured out as easily. Things get even more crazy if you take the scale of some things into account. For example, I have never climed a tree or felt a fallen one, so I have know knowledge of how the branches feel when they are still on the tree, and have little knowledge of how the trunk changes to accomodate them. I am not taking the risk of climbing up the tree to find out either. So that knowledge is something I won't have for the foreseeable future. It's the same for the sun and moon. I can feel the affects that both have on the Earth with the sun's heat warming my area and when it sets the area cools down but I have know way to imagine what a sunset looks like. That doesn't mean I don't have an image for it, but it's not sight. It's just imaginary and not accurate. I also strugle with imagining parts of a scene that I wouldn't be able to touch in reality, so like a house will be small so I can touch every part of it and if it isn't, the tactile sensation of the part I can't reach isn't there and the image is vague. Even sound and smell generally are within arms reach unless I force myself to try imagining things to scale. Even that is never successful. Sorry for the lon post but I wanted to try and explain things in a way that would help you explain this idea we've all been hitting on better in your book, because I don't think it's exactly like the scientists thing. They have photos and magnification. We don't even get that luxury, so it's more like how some people convert to a different religion. Someone explained something in a way that fills in a gap in knowledge and it fits, so you accept it as truth due to overwhelming evidence.
lisper [OP]3 points1y ago
Thanks for taking the time to write that. It was very helpful.
(It kind of breaks my heart that you've never climbed a tree. But I certainly understand why you wouldn't want to risk it.)
moonpegasus193 points1y ago
also let's say that we were told that the world had a roof and we were warmed by heat lamps at particular times. That would b very hard to prove unles you had enouh information to counter the claim.
OldManOnFire5 points1y ago
Much of science has to be taken on faith. It's strange using those two words together, considering faith and science are often at odds, but it's true.
A bit of perspective here - human beings can't see much. We perceive the vibration frequencies of photons reflected off of surfaces as colors and forget how little we're seeing. Nearly all of the Universe is dark. Photon density in the Universe is estimated at less than 1 per cubic meter. Any particle that vibrates at a wavelength greater than 750 nanometers or less than 350 nanometers is invisible to us. We can't see radio waves, microwaves, x-ray, gamma ray, infrared, or ultraviolet wavelengths. The visible spectrum is far less than 1% of the entire electromagnetic spectrum. Then, just to make it worse, half of everything is hidden behind our own heads and outside our field of vision.
Human beings are lousy cosmic observers. Almost anything outside of this little blue rock we call Earth is imperceptible to us. We evolved here and developed eyesight well suited to living here, but we specialized in adequately seeing the visible spectrum at the expense of seeing the rest of the electromagnetic spectrum.
Even those of us with the sharpest eyesight are still limited in what we can see.
I've read that human beings actually glow in the dark, but human eyesight is about 30 times too weak to see it. The article said cats can see our glow. It makes sense - they evolved from nocturnal hunters.
Back to the question.
I've never seen Iceland but I know it exists. I've never seen gravity. I've never seen electrons, oxygen, or the molten iron core at the center of the Earth. But that's okay. I know gravity exists every time I drop a brick and it falls down instead of up. I know electrons exist every time I flip the fan switch on. I know oxygen exists when I hold my breath until I experience the effects of oxygen deprivation. And I know the iron core is there because shock waves travel through molten iron at a certain speed, and an earthquake that happens in the Indian ocean is detected by sensors around the world after precisely enough time has passed for the shock wave to travel through molten iron and no other material.
Science includes inference, and inference requires faith. I have to have faith the engineers aren't lying to me when they say shock waves travel through different mediums at different speeds. I have to have faith the clocks at the seismographic stations around the world are accurate. I have to have faith the world isn't flat. I can't personally see any of this but I don't have to to believe it. Airplanes fly through air nobody can see, elevators go up and down on cables passengers don't see, the color of a girl's eyes is determined by genes she can't see.
My point is blindness isn't a barrier to accepting science because vision isn't a requirement to believing science.
ColonelKepler1 points1y ago
> Much of science has to be taken on faith.
This is false. While a layperson may not understand much about a given field of science, anyone can understand the scientific method, and what must be true in order for something to be discussed scientifically. Most importantly, that a hypothesis is based on either the outcome of previous experiments, and that it is valid only if it is both testable and falsifiable. Conclusions don't just come out of thin air, and a good scientist will abandon a hypothesis or even a theory if it's found to be incorrect, not cling to it like a religion. The scientific method works, demonstrably.
lisper [OP]1 points1y ago
Sure, but at the core of my belief in science is not faith that scientists are telling the truth, but the fact that there are experiments I can do myself (or personally witness being done by others). But for me that all depends on my being able to see the experimental setup.
> I've read that human beings actually glow in the dark
Yes, that's true. It's not just humans. All objects glow. It's called blackbody radiation. And it's not that human eyesight is too weak to see it, it's that the temperature of the human body is too low to produce wavelengths that the human eye can see. But we can see the glow of hotter objects. That is how incandescent light bulbs work.
OldManOnFire3 points1y ago
Of course an experiment must be reproducible, but realistically, which of them can you reproduce to your own satisfaction? Unless you're got centuries of free time, trillions of dollars worth of equipment, your own particle collider, submarine, weather satellite, electron microscope, and a gene sequencer you have to accept results you can't personally verify.
Even if I had my eyesight back I still couldn't personally verify chromosomes determine sex or the composition of Saturn's rings. I don't have the specialized equipment. Neither does the average sighted person. We're both dependent on peer review to verify scientific claims.
My point is that neither of us "sees" science, me because I'm blind and you because you don't have the time or equipment to verify it all yourself. But we both accept the science we don't see because it's peer reviewed, meaning others have seen it and attest to it, just like we accept Iceland is there because others tell us they've been there.
lisper [OP]2 points1y ago
> which of them can you reproduce to your own satisfaction?
There is actually a ton of cosmological science you can do with the unaided eye or with a cheap telescope. You can see the phases of the moon and the retrograde motion of Mars with the unaided eye. You can see that the illuminated side of the moon always points towards the sun. You can see eclipses and observe that lunar eclipses only happen when the moon is full, and solar eclipses only happen when the moon is new. You can see that Venus and Mercury are only ever visible near sunset and sunrise, while Saturn, Mars and Jupiter can be see at any hour. You can see that Mercury moves faster than Venus, Venus faster than Mars, etc. You can see that the five visible planets (and the moon) are always in more or less a straight line, and that the angle that this line makes with the horizon changes depending on your latitude. You can see that the stars appear to rotate around Polaris, and that Polaris moves towards the horizon as you travel south. With a cheap telescope you can see the rings of Saturn and observe the motions of the moons of Jupiter and the phases of Venus. I have personally done all of these things. Some of them I do regularly. It's as close as I get to a religious ritual.
Basic experiments in electricity and magnetism are also pretty easy to do, though I guess those could be made accessible to blind people as well. Hm, there's an idea...
Tarnagona1 points1y ago
Tangential to the main discussion, I learned fairly recently, that there are places where you can see the curvature of the Earth with the naked eye. Well, I can't, because my eyes aren't good enough, but I can see it on video, or possibly with a telescope, though I haven't tried (it also requires finding a suitable location). With a large enough body of water, you can see things on the opposite shore disappear/reappear over the horizon as you crouch down or stand up. How cool is that!?
BenandGracie4 points1y ago
When I was a kid, my mom used to take me outside and have me show her where the heat of the sun was on my body. This was to teach me that the sun moves across the sky. I have no way of experienceing what the moon and stars look like, so I have to rely on people's word on there existence.
I only use color as something to describe things to sighted people. For example, I might tell someone the color of a car if I am looking for a ride.
The one big thing my parents taught me, was that when I turn while standing in a room, the room does not room with me. I have met some totally blind people who do not understand this. If they are in the middle of a room, they can actually lose track of themselves in space. It is hard to explain, but I have watched someone walk across a room and drift towards the right edge and run in to the wall.
The thing that helped me with the scale of objects growing up was books. My mom started reading to me before I was two, and when i got older, I continued to read everything I could get my hands on. Today, I still prefer a good book to a movie.
lisper [OP]1 points1y ago
Thanks for that explanation. One question though: you're blind, right? So how would it even be a question that you would prefer a book to a movie? Movies are mostly visual (early movies didn't have sound at all). So why would it even be a question that you would prefer a book to a movie? What is the value proposition of a movie for a blind person?
Tarnagona1 points1y ago
A movie has sound effects, different voices, music, all of which you don’t get from reading a book (some professionally done audiobook performances not withstanding). That’s a different experience than reading, and I can understand why someone would prefer it, especially if you add audio descriptions to fill in some of the missing visual information. It doesn’t work as well for some things (like action sequences), but depending on the show/movie, just listening to the audio can be like listening to a radio drama.
BenandGracie1 points1y ago
These days we have audio description. While you are right, generally you would think most blind people would prefer a book. I bet you could find some blind person out there that prefers movies. Blind people have as different interests as sighted people. For example, mine is guns. I can't see the target, but I can shoot with the help of a sighted spotter.
Even I get surprised every now and then. I know of a few blind folks that like to take pictures.
lisper [OP]1 points1y ago
Wow. That is so weird. This is turning out to be a real eye-opener (in no small measure because it is making me realize how pervasive sight is in the English language as a metaphor for "understanding".)
retrolental_morose4 points1y ago
u/Tarnagona Has covered it, really. I've never had usable vision, but just as I was able to hear higher frequency sounds as a child that I can no longer perceive as an older adult, or as personal experimentation has proved to my own satisfaction that wireless communication is real, I just have to take it as read that things are out there beyond my sensorium. I really struggled with some concepts as a child. The sun made sense, because I could feel its heat. But the sun being obscured by a cloud was a trickier one (the lack of sunshine doesn't necessarily imply a cloud, after all).
To this day, colours are just arbitrary labels people put on things which hold very little relevance to me, in the same sort of way I might choose to buy a specific weight of meat to feed the family, I will elect to pair up specific colours to ensure my clothes match.
oncenightvaler1 points1y ago
So I was blind from birth and I don't often think about sight I just take it as granted that I won't understand it. But I imagine it's just like any other sense that there's the looking component and that's similar to hearing, smelling, touching tasting, and then there's the staring seeing component and that's similar to listening, feeling, sniffing, savouring. What I mean is that there's a passive part and an active part.
lisper [OP]2 points1y ago
Yeah, that's definitely part of it. But the are two things that makes vision different from other senses. The first is how it can reach out into space to gather information from very far away at literally the speed of light. And the second is how your brain can process vast amounts of data and leave you with the visceral sensation of perceiving *objects* that are out there in the space around you, with no awareness of the vast computational power that was brought to bear in the raw data to make that happen. It's kind of like the difference between listening to a language that you don't understand versus one that you do. You hear the former in terms of sounds, but the latter in terms of words. With vision, you always "see in terms of words" but it doesn't require any training or practice, it just happens. You don't have to "learn a language". In fact, it's the exact opposite. To "see in terms of sounds instead of words", i.e. to become aware of the raw data (and how the processing can sometimes fool you into seeing things that aren't actually there) is the thing that requires effort.
Hm, has anyone ever tried to explain mirrors to you?
oncenightvaler1 points1y ago
A mirror is obvious, it's a piece of glass where you can see yourself. See book examples like Alice Through the Looking Glass, by Lewis Carol and Coraline by Neil Gaiman.
lisper [OP]1 points1y ago
> it's a piece of glass where you can see yourself
That's not wrong, but it's not the whole story either. You can see other things in a mirror besides yourself. And you can only see yourself if you are looking at the mirror from the correct angle. You only see an accurate image of yourself if the mirror is flat. And so on and so forth. Mirrors are actually much more complicated than they first appear.
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