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Help navigating a webpage with VoiceOver (self.Blind)
submitted by kelpangler
I’m still pretty new to using VoiceOver on my Mac. It’s not like iOS where you can just zip your finger around the screen. What are the basic commands you use to get around? Here are a couple specific questions:
1. Do you ever use tab or shift-tab to move back and forth? I use VO and the left or right arrow keys to move from one item to the next. I want to know how much tabbing is actually used.
2. How often do you navigate by headers, forms, images, or links? Like when you set the rotor to one of those options. I think maybe navigating by headers might be useful but what about the others?
I know there are lots of commands to use but what are the ones that will handle 80% of your browsing on a daily basis? Thanks!
1. Do you ever use tab or shift-tab to move back and forth? I use VO and the left or right arrow keys to move from one item to the next. I want to know how much tabbing is actually used.
2. How often do you navigate by headers, forms, images, or links? Like when you set the rotor to one of those options. I think maybe navigating by headers might be useful but what about the others?
I know there are lots of commands to use but what are the ones that will handle 80% of your browsing on a daily basis? Thanks!
zersiax 5 points 1y ago
Tabbing is very rare, particularly on the mac where you need to explicitly turn on an option to make tab not just take you to form fields and the like but also links and such.
Even with that on, though, hearing the links out of context is often not all that helpful so you might as well vo+right and vo+left at that point.
Doing just that would be terribly slow though. I tend to use vo+cmd+h and j a lot, one takees you to the next heading, one takes you to the next form field. vo+f followed by a search term can get you places quickly as well if you know where you're going.
If that's too many keys at once you can turn on quicknav with left+right arrow and use just h and j instead, which might again be something you need to explicitly go turn on first.
There's quite a few other things like hotspots, element list etc that can speed things up but those are more advanced.
Even with that on, though, hearing the links out of context is often not all that helpful so you might as well vo+right and vo+left at that point.
Doing just that would be terribly slow though. I tend to use vo+cmd+h and j a lot, one takees you to the next heading, one takes you to the next form field. vo+f followed by a search term can get you places quickly as well if you know where you're going.
If that's too many keys at once you can turn on quicknav with left+right arrow and use just h and j instead, which might again be something you need to explicitly go turn on first.
There's quite a few other things like hotspots, element list etc that can speed things up but those are more advanced.
rumster 1 points 1y ago
What do you mean tab is very rare? I swear in accessibility proofing sites tab is #1. If it is not let me know and I will follow up with my higher ups.
zersiax 3 points 1y ago
Tab is a great way to check a site's accessibility because it shows everything is keyboard-focusable, it lets you see the focus order of a website and there is a group of people who use tab a lot, particularly people who use the keyboard only but may not be screen reader users, people who don't know how to use screenreaders very well and I'm reasonably sure people who depend on alternative input devices need tab to work well as well.
What I meant is that tab is prettyrare for people who use a screen reader in particular because there's usually a quicker way to get around a website in about 95 out of a hundred cases, and people who are good with their screen reader will generally prefer using those.
What I meant is that tab is prettyrare for people who use a screen reader in particular because there's usually a quicker way to get around a website in about 95 out of a hundred cases, and people who are good with their screen reader will generally prefer using those.
kelpangler [OP] 2 points 1y ago
A friend asked me to walk her through a site she’s working on. It was like a sign up page with stuff explaining the benefits of it. She kept asking about how I would tab through it and I was thinking why would I use tab? It basically only takes me to links or fields and skips content. Like how would I know that content was there if I only tabbed? I was trying to explain that I just arrowed through each element but I then I thought maybe I’m doing this all wrong.
As a sighted person you can scan content and tab at the same time to understand what’s what. But I don’t understand how tabbing works well for us. If tabbing just moves from one interactive element to another then how would I know if there’s any content in between?
As a sighted person you can scan content and tab at the same time to understand what’s what. But I don’t understand how tabbing works well for us. If tabbing just moves from one interactive element to another then how would I know if there’s any content in between?
zersiax 1 points 1y ago
You would not, essentially.
Tabbing, for us in particular, could be useful to deliberately skip content and only look for forms and links, and particularly people who are new to their screen reader, or as you state people who can still see enough to read the text in between the interactibles will do this, but it's often rather inefficient and people quickly graduate from doing this to using more specific screen reader tricks, one of which is just arrowing through the content o nWindows or using vo+left and vo+right on the mac because it moves you either in bigger chunks, or makes sure you catch all the content in between.
However, there are people who do this, which is partially why there are guidelines for link text in WCAG,; don't just link the word "here" in "click here to go to the supervendor website", because the word "here" out of context like you would get if you were to tab would be completely useless, same goes for using a link list, or nvigating by link using a screen reader, OR trying to click a link with speech recognition. "Click here" "which here?"
Tabbing, for us in particular, could be useful to deliberately skip content and only look for forms and links, and particularly people who are new to their screen reader, or as you state people who can still see enough to read the text in between the interactibles will do this, but it's often rather inefficient and people quickly graduate from doing this to using more specific screen reader tricks, one of which is just arrowing through the content o nWindows or using vo+left and vo+right on the mac because it moves you either in bigger chunks, or makes sure you catch all the content in between.
However, there are people who do this, which is partially why there are guidelines for link text in WCAG,; don't just link the word "here" in "click here to go to the supervendor website", because the word "here" out of context like you would get if you were to tab would be completely useless, same goes for using a link list, or nvigating by link using a screen reader, OR trying to click a link with speech recognition. "Click here" "which here?"
rumster 3 points 1y ago
Usually arrow keys for most elements and tab for interactive elements. I suggest you listen to the following youtube to get the best use of VoiceOver: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiISb29tpS8
It's a very long but he does a great introduction and best practices of use of VoiceOver on mac.
Please let me know if you need anymore help and I please remember some sites are just not accessible and I understand your fustration. We will get there one day.
Just heads up it takes months if not years to become a super user so please do not get mad at yourself.
I hope this helped!
It's a very long but he does a great introduction and best practices of use of VoiceOver on mac.
Please let me know if you need anymore help and I please remember some sites are just not accessible and I understand your fustration. We will get there one day.
Just heads up it takes months if not years to become a super user so please do not get mad at yourself.
I hope this helped!
kelpangler [OP] 2 points 1y ago
Will VO arrow keys pretty much get you where you need to go linearly? Can you explain the purpose for swapping between that and tabbing? Super helpful information. Thanks!
rumster 2 points 1y ago
tabbing is usually used for to check all interactive elements. Arrow is navigating the content as he explains in the video. Depending on the user some tab around first and than go back and arrow key.
Marconius 2 points 1y ago
I primarily have QuickNav on and can do all my navigation and interaction through the arrow keys alone for most of it. Up + Right arrows or Up+Left arrows to change the rotor setting, then up and down arrows to jump to what I want.
Vo+U will open the item chooser which breaks website elements down into super easy to navigate lists that you just move through with the arrow keys and click or hit Enter on what you want to jump to.
I don't use Tab as much, but make sure to have it on so I can quickly move through form fields. It's not as prevalent in VoiceOver but is still doable.
With QuickNav on, I toggle single-key navigation on and off with VO+Q. When that's on, pressing the numbers 1-6 will jump you directly to the headings of that level, and holding shift while pressing a number will move you back up the page by that heading level. Make sure you turn QuickNav off when you want to type, though, or at least toggle single-key nav off.
If I know what I'm searching for on a page, VO+F will open a search box where you can type in words or phrases and if they exist, VO will jump to them. VO+G will then move you to the next matching word or phrase, and as with everything, holding shift while doing that will move you backwards.
It's all personal preference, but I tend to use the VO+right arrow or just right arrow the vast majority of the time with Quicknav on after jumping to the h1 of the page, or jump by headings until I find what I want and move into the content with the arrow navigation.
Edit: If you are more comfortable with swipes and flicks and touch gestures from iOS, and if you have a MacBook or a trackpad, you can turn on the trackpad commander in the VoiceOver Utility and then it will start working exactly like as if the trackpad were an iPhone screen.
Vo+U will open the item chooser which breaks website elements down into super easy to navigate lists that you just move through with the arrow keys and click or hit Enter on what you want to jump to.
I don't use Tab as much, but make sure to have it on so I can quickly move through form fields. It's not as prevalent in VoiceOver but is still doable.
With QuickNav on, I toggle single-key navigation on and off with VO+Q. When that's on, pressing the numbers 1-6 will jump you directly to the headings of that level, and holding shift while pressing a number will move you back up the page by that heading level. Make sure you turn QuickNav off when you want to type, though, or at least toggle single-key nav off.
If I know what I'm searching for on a page, VO+F will open a search box where you can type in words or phrases and if they exist, VO will jump to them. VO+G will then move you to the next matching word or phrase, and as with everything, holding shift while doing that will move you backwards.
It's all personal preference, but I tend to use the VO+right arrow or just right arrow the vast majority of the time with Quicknav on after jumping to the h1 of the page, or jump by headings until I find what I want and move into the content with the arrow navigation.
Edit: If you are more comfortable with swipes and flicks and touch gestures from iOS, and if you have a MacBook or a trackpad, you can turn on the trackpad commander in the VoiceOver Utility and then it will start working exactly like as if the trackpad were an iPhone screen.
Fridux 2 points 1y ago
I only use Tab browsing here on reddit to navigate the old layout post by post, and at least in Safari it has to be enabled in Preferences. Other than that I use QuickNav, which you can enable by pressing the Left and Right arrow keys at the same time. and Single Key QuickNav by pressing VO+Q, which in conjunction with QuickNav, allows you to browse the web by pressing single keys more like NVDA's browse mode, and also switches your rotor setting so that if you press H once the rotor will switch to Headings.
QuickNav itself enables the following arrow key combinations:
* Left - Move the VoiceOver cursor to the previous element, same as flicking left with one finger on iOS;
* Right - Moves the VoiceOver cursor to the next element, same as flicking right with one finger on iOS;
* Up - Moves the VoiceOver cursor to the previous element using the current rotor setting, same as flicking up with one finger on iOS;
* Down - Moves the VoiceOver cursor to the next element using the current rotor setting, same as flicking down with one finger on iOS;
* Left+Right - Enable or disable QuickNav;
* Left+Up - Switch to the previous rotor setting, same as rotating counter-clockwise on iOS;
* Right+Up - Switch to the next rotor setting, same as rotating clockwise on iOS;
* Left+Down - Stop interacting with an element, same as flicking left with two fingers on iOS when hierarchical navigation is enabled;
* Right+Down - Interacts with the element in the VoiceOver cursor, same as flicking right with two fingers when hierarchical navigation is enabled on iOS;
* Up+Down - Activate the element in the VoiceOver cursor, same as double-tapping with one finger on iOS.
As for Single Key QuickNav, the keys can be configured in VoiceOver utility.
In addition you can also enable iOS-style gestures by pressing VO while performing the clockwise rotation gesture on the trackpad, though I only use this to get the feel of the layout of an application by dragging my finger and listening for feedback. Also be careful when you enable this because, like on iOS, double tapping the trackpad with 3 fingers mutes VoiceOver.
Finally, and although it's somewhat broken, it's possible to do caret browsing on MacOS using the arrow keys like on Windows and the Option key to either navigate word by word or paragraph by paragraph like Control on Windows, but I only use this to read source code.
---
Edited to add the basic single arrow key QuickNav commands.
QuickNav itself enables the following arrow key combinations:
* Left - Move the VoiceOver cursor to the previous element, same as flicking left with one finger on iOS;
* Right - Moves the VoiceOver cursor to the next element, same as flicking right with one finger on iOS;
* Up - Moves the VoiceOver cursor to the previous element using the current rotor setting, same as flicking up with one finger on iOS;
* Down - Moves the VoiceOver cursor to the next element using the current rotor setting, same as flicking down with one finger on iOS;
* Left+Right - Enable or disable QuickNav;
* Left+Up - Switch to the previous rotor setting, same as rotating counter-clockwise on iOS;
* Right+Up - Switch to the next rotor setting, same as rotating clockwise on iOS;
* Left+Down - Stop interacting with an element, same as flicking left with two fingers on iOS when hierarchical navigation is enabled;
* Right+Down - Interacts with the element in the VoiceOver cursor, same as flicking right with two fingers when hierarchical navigation is enabled on iOS;
* Up+Down - Activate the element in the VoiceOver cursor, same as double-tapping with one finger on iOS.
As for Single Key QuickNav, the keys can be configured in VoiceOver utility.
In addition you can also enable iOS-style gestures by pressing VO while performing the clockwise rotation gesture on the trackpad, though I only use this to get the feel of the layout of an application by dragging my finger and listening for feedback. Also be careful when you enable this because, like on iOS, double tapping the trackpad with 3 fingers mutes VoiceOver.
Finally, and although it's somewhat broken, it's possible to do caret browsing on MacOS using the arrow keys like on Windows and the Option key to either navigate word by word or paragraph by paragraph like Control on Windows, but I only use this to read source code.
---
Edited to add the basic single arrow key QuickNav commands.
kelpangler [OP] 1 points 1y ago
I don't know which version of the reddit website i'm using but when I tab through all the elements it skips over the main content. Like VoiceOver will speak the post title, username, the post timestamp, but then it skips over the post content. It continues on with the buttons to like, unlike, reply, etc. What do you do here?
Fridux 1 points 1y ago
I think from the description that you are in the new layout, because when you tab out of a post link in the old layout you end up either in the next post link or in the search bar after the last post link. The new layout can be navigated by heading so you don't need to use tab there; I'm still using the old layout because it's more comfortable to me.
As for your question, to get to the post text from the post title you can press VO+Command+P and the VoiceOver cursor will land in the first paragraph of the post in the new layout. In the old layout you'll have to press the same combination of keys a few more times since there are more plain text elements between the post title and the post content. If you find yourself using this command a lot, it's probably a good idea to add it to the QuickNav Single Key navigation, which as I said, can be configured in VoiceOver Utility. This is the same as pressing N to jump to the next normal text in NVDA, if I recall correctly.
If you wish to switch to the old layout, either browse reddit at http://old.reddit.com/ or change the default in your account preferences.
As for your question, to get to the post text from the post title you can press VO+Command+P and the VoiceOver cursor will land in the first paragraph of the post in the new layout. In the old layout you'll have to press the same combination of keys a few more times since there are more plain text elements between the post title and the post content. If you find yourself using this command a lot, it's probably a good idea to add it to the QuickNav Single Key navigation, which as I said, can be configured in VoiceOver Utility. This is the same as pressing N to jump to the next normal text in NVDA, if I recall correctly.
If you wish to switch to the old layout, either browse reddit at http://old.reddit.com/ or change the default in your account preferences.
AutomaticChair9 2 points 1y ago
I am not an expert on VoiceOver but there is a tutorial that will walk you through many of the basic navigation features.
kelpangler [OP] 2 points 1y ago
Yup I’ve run through it. I guess there are the basics but then what are the actual commands people use on a daily basis. Like are they really switching between some of these specialized commands or just a really simple VO left or right arrows.
TechnicalPragmatist 1 points 1y ago
Voice over uses different types of screen reading keystrokes then windows so don’t overly transfer them. You don’t use tab much in mac’s voice over.
I made a list if you ever want it of shortcut keys
I made a list if you ever want it of shortcut keys
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