Blind and Visually Impaired Community
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Goze - Historical Japanese Blind Women Traveling Musicians. (self.Blind)
submitted by yutaatakagi
[removed]
OldManOnFire 1 points 1y ago
I've never heard of the Goze tradition before but you've certainly piqued my curiosity. However, I'm not sure r/Blind can help you.
This subreddit is where we come to be ourselves with the only other people who really understand what we're going through. Going blind is traumatic, and like survivors of any shared trauma, we look after each other. It's where we vent and rant about the stoopid assumptions made about us, it's where we talk technology and argue Android vs. Apple and screen reading software, it's where we ask for advice about family members in denial and how to get friends to stop offering crystals and essential oils to cure us. It's where we feel understood. We don't come here to answer questions from outsiders - that's what r/AskReddit is for. r/Blind is more of an informal support group, like r/PTSD, and I imagine the regulars at r/PTSD don't welcome questions from outsiders, either. I hope you understand.
You're trying to be inclusive and respectful by asking us for our perspective, and I appreciate it, but please understand our blindness doesn't give us any special insight. There isn't a blind consensus about anything, just many different opinions from many different blind people. Any natural sympathy or respect we would feel towards Goze performers due to their blindness wouldn't be much different from anybody else's. We don't all listen to Stevie Wonder or Ray Charles any more than people with 20/20 eyesight listen to music by artists who share their 20/20 visual acuity. Goze seems pretty cool the way you write about it, and I'll listen to some just because I'm curious, but I would have listened before I went blind because of the story you wrote.
Your post was removed by our bot because your account is less than a day old. Only moderators can see it, and I'm not going to override the bot and approve it because we don't come to r/Blind to answer questions from outsiders. Nothing personal, we're just trying to keep this community somewhat private. It's not you, it's definitely us.
However, I don't mind answering questions and sharing my blind experience with others, so if there's anything you'd like to know that I haven't covered, feel free to ask. Please - I get lonely when my wife leaves for work =)
This subreddit is where we come to be ourselves with the only other people who really understand what we're going through. Going blind is traumatic, and like survivors of any shared trauma, we look after each other. It's where we vent and rant about the stoopid assumptions made about us, it's where we talk technology and argue Android vs. Apple and screen reading software, it's where we ask for advice about family members in denial and how to get friends to stop offering crystals and essential oils to cure us. It's where we feel understood. We don't come here to answer questions from outsiders - that's what r/AskReddit is for. r/Blind is more of an informal support group, like r/PTSD, and I imagine the regulars at r/PTSD don't welcome questions from outsiders, either. I hope you understand.
You're trying to be inclusive and respectful by asking us for our perspective, and I appreciate it, but please understand our blindness doesn't give us any special insight. There isn't a blind consensus about anything, just many different opinions from many different blind people. Any natural sympathy or respect we would feel towards Goze performers due to their blindness wouldn't be much different from anybody else's. We don't all listen to Stevie Wonder or Ray Charles any more than people with 20/20 eyesight listen to music by artists who share their 20/20 visual acuity. Goze seems pretty cool the way you write about it, and I'll listen to some just because I'm curious, but I would have listened before I went blind because of the story you wrote.
Your post was removed by our bot because your account is less than a day old. Only moderators can see it, and I'm not going to override the bot and approve it because we don't come to r/Blind to answer questions from outsiders. Nothing personal, we're just trying to keep this community somewhat private. It's not you, it's definitely us.
However, I don't mind answering questions and sharing my blind experience with others, so if there's anything you'd like to know that I haven't covered, feel free to ask. Please - I get lonely when my wife leaves for work =)
yutaatakagi [OP] 1 points 1y ago
Thank you very much for your detailed response!
I have never posted to reddit before so I am not aware of the conventions and expectations. I will try posting to r/AskReddit. I am disappointed that the post will not reach more people here, but I completely respect your decision as an admin. I am also very grateful for your offer to answer questions and share your experiences. :)
It makes sense that opinions will differ from person to person, and of course I understand anything you say is your perspective/opinion and doesn't represent the community as a whole. Also, I understand that Goze are an esoteric topic that few people have formulated opinions about. That being the said, may I ask if there are prevailing opinions within the community about the romanticization of blind musicians such as Stevie Wonders as an archetype? I was reading through some of the posts discussing representations of blind and visually impaired characters in pop culture, and there seemed to be strong opinions on what constitutes good and bad representation.
Seeking minority perspectives was not a requirement of the assignment, but I was personally curious. I believe that getting the insider perspective (what in anthropology jargon would be called the "emic" perspective) is important when discussing others. I would be interested in hearing your opinions regardless, but would it be okay to paraphrase or quote your responses in the essay? It is a college paper, and will not be published in any capacity outside of the class. If not that is totally okay too.
Thank you very much!
I have never posted to reddit before so I am not aware of the conventions and expectations. I will try posting to r/AskReddit. I am disappointed that the post will not reach more people here, but I completely respect your decision as an admin. I am also very grateful for your offer to answer questions and share your experiences. :)
It makes sense that opinions will differ from person to person, and of course I understand anything you say is your perspective/opinion and doesn't represent the community as a whole. Also, I understand that Goze are an esoteric topic that few people have formulated opinions about. That being the said, may I ask if there are prevailing opinions within the community about the romanticization of blind musicians such as Stevie Wonders as an archetype? I was reading through some of the posts discussing representations of blind and visually impaired characters in pop culture, and there seemed to be strong opinions on what constitutes good and bad representation.
Seeking minority perspectives was not a requirement of the assignment, but I was personally curious. I believe that getting the insider perspective (what in anthropology jargon would be called the "emic" perspective) is important when discussing others. I would be interested in hearing your opinions regardless, but would it be okay to paraphrase or quote your responses in the essay? It is a college paper, and will not be published in any capacity outside of the class. If not that is totally okay too.
Thank you very much!
OldManOnFire 1 points 1y ago
I have no problem with you quoting or paraphrasing anything I say.
I haven't seen a single mention of Stevie Wonder in r/Blind. On those rare occasions when we discuss music it's focused on artists that aren't blind like The Cure and Depeche Mode. There's a somewhat famous YouTube personality who's blind and she's been mentioned, but mostly negatively. I don't remember her name but a few of our members feel she's overemphasizing her blindness for YouTube, almost like blindness is her personality instead of her disability.
Here's a perspective you might consider - There is a stereotype about fictional blind people that our community generally doesn't like, and that's that so many blind characters in books and television are piano tuners. It seems to rub our members wrong because it's unoriginal, limiting, and plays into the misconception that we develop super hearing to compensate for our blindness. I don't know if the Japanese had a similar misconception that blind girls had exceptional singing abilities due to their blindness, but if so then Goze performers were probably angered by it. They developed their skill the same way anybody else does, by repeated practice, discipline, and effort, and when others proclaim in ignorance they're good because they're blind they're not acknowledging the hard work and long hours of practice it took. Blindness doesn't make our hearing better, it makes our vision worse. We earn our skills the same way anybody else does. You wrote about the difficulties Goze performers faced but you left a potential one out - they were expected to be great because people assumed blindness conferred a special musical ability upon girls. They had to learn to perform at a very high level but all of their practice and effort was assumed to be unimportant - the *real* reason they're good is because they're blind.
I don't know if that was a common feeling among the Goze, I only know if r/Blind put together a band, practiced until we sounded great, and went on tour we'd certainly want to beat the shit out of critics who claimed our musical genius was a result of our blindness and not acknowledge our months of practice. That's as "emic" as it gets.
Good luck on your paper! I'm still available if you have more you want to discuss, and if it's okay with you I'd like to read your paper once it's finished.
I haven't seen a single mention of Stevie Wonder in r/Blind. On those rare occasions when we discuss music it's focused on artists that aren't blind like The Cure and Depeche Mode. There's a somewhat famous YouTube personality who's blind and she's been mentioned, but mostly negatively. I don't remember her name but a few of our members feel she's overemphasizing her blindness for YouTube, almost like blindness is her personality instead of her disability.
Here's a perspective you might consider - There is a stereotype about fictional blind people that our community generally doesn't like, and that's that so many blind characters in books and television are piano tuners. It seems to rub our members wrong because it's unoriginal, limiting, and plays into the misconception that we develop super hearing to compensate for our blindness. I don't know if the Japanese had a similar misconception that blind girls had exceptional singing abilities due to their blindness, but if so then Goze performers were probably angered by it. They developed their skill the same way anybody else does, by repeated practice, discipline, and effort, and when others proclaim in ignorance they're good because they're blind they're not acknowledging the hard work and long hours of practice it took. Blindness doesn't make our hearing better, it makes our vision worse. We earn our skills the same way anybody else does. You wrote about the difficulties Goze performers faced but you left a potential one out - they were expected to be great because people assumed blindness conferred a special musical ability upon girls. They had to learn to perform at a very high level but all of their practice and effort was assumed to be unimportant - the *real* reason they're good is because they're blind.
I don't know if that was a common feeling among the Goze, I only know if r/Blind put together a band, practiced until we sounded great, and went on tour we'd certainly want to beat the shit out of critics who claimed our musical genius was a result of our blindness and not acknowledge our months of practice. That's as "emic" as it gets.
Good luck on your paper! I'm still available if you have more you want to discuss, and if it's okay with you I'd like to read your paper once it's finished.
yutaatakagi [OP] 2 points 1y ago
Hello,
Here is a copy of my paper on goze if you are still interested.
$1
Thank you very much again for taking the time to talk with me!
Here is a copy of my paper on goze if you are still interested.
$1
Thank you very much again for taking the time to talk with me!
yutaatakagi [OP] 2 points 1y ago
Thank you again for your detailed answers!
I hadn't considered this point, but now that you've said it, it makes a lot of sense. As a musician myself, it rubs me the wrong way when my skill is attributed to a natural talent instead of hard work. I can only imagine how infuriating and hurtful it would be to have one's skill attributed to their disability.
I really appreciate your thoughts and engaging discussion. I can certainly send you the paper when it is finished. Thank you again!
I hadn't considered this point, but now that you've said it, it makes a lot of sense. As a musician myself, it rubs me the wrong way when my skill is attributed to a natural talent instead of hard work. I can only imagine how infuriating and hurtful it would be to have one's skill attributed to their disability.
I really appreciate your thoughts and engaging discussion. I can certainly send you the paper when it is finished. Thank you again!
Rethunker 2 points 1y ago
>There's a somewhat famous YouTube personality who's blind and she's been mentioned, but mostly negatively. I don't remember her name but a few of our members feel she's overemphasizing her blindness for YouTube, almost like blindness is her personality instead of her disability.
That may be Molly Burke.
I've watched a number of her earlier videos, and I think they can serve as stepping stones for sighted people learning about blind people. (Watching Tommy Edison's videos is another way to do this.)
u/yutaatakagi, u/OldManOnFire's words represent the spirit r/Blind. I'd say he does speak for more people than himself since he has the subjective experience of blindness, and he also can step outside and write candidly and clearly about blind and visually impaired community at large.
Your post was removed by the auto-moderator. As a precaution, posts from people whose profiles are less than a day old are blocked. But I would agree that, although what you're writing about is interesting, r/Blind isn't the right place for it.
When you find a home for your post, then here are a few things to consider:
* Shorter is better. On Reddit, many readers--including some who may be interested in your topic--will be turned off by a long post that reads like a written lecture. An invitation to discuss should be short and have some kind of hook--just like any invitation. (I'm gonna try to be funny here, and not in a mean way.) Imagine if I encountered you on the street and said, "Hi, I work in assistive technology and I'd like to tell you about geometric transforms for perspective correction..." and then I talk for three minutes straight before inviting the other person their thoughts or comments.
* Make your intention clear at the outset. If you want to engage in a discussion, the first sentence or two--which may be all that a Redditor encounters while scrolling--should ask a question to which you want the answer. If you'd like to inform people about a topic, then an alternative is an Ask Me Anything post.
* Ask My Anything ("AMA") posts tend to be reserved for people who are (relatively) well know in their field. I don't usually read them, but they're often invited posts: an author, musician, athlete, or some other person who typically fields questions in public is invited to answer questions on Reddit. Questions are often people by people already familiar with them, such as avid readers of an author who did X to character Y in the long-running series of novels called Z.
* With a few exceptions, each subreddit is a neighborhood. Live in the neighborhood for a while before posting: read the existing threads, comment on a few, and see how it goes. Enculturate yourself. Maybe acculturation will take place.
>may I ask if there are prevailing opinions within the community about
the romanticization of blind musicians such as Stevie Wonders as an
archetype?
I'll give my own answer to this one. I'm sighted but with some vision oddities, and I develop assistive tech for BVI people.
I've not once had any friends who are blind bring up Stevie Wonder unless they find out I'm a HUGE fan of Stevie Wonder, having grown up on his music. A friend who has actually met Stevie is one of the friends who never brought him up. I saw a photo of this friend with him. Stevie shows up at some conventions related to blindness tech, and has been influential in promoting assistive tech. (If you're unfamiliar with this, look up the history of his album Talking Book.)
This same friend who is blind also works in assistive tech, but gets tired of talking about blindness and formulating what to say about blindness so that sighted people understand.
​
Finally, I'll recommend the book There Plant Eyes by Godin as a single volume that dives into many, many questions that sighted folks have. As a scholar, you're likely to appreciate the writing style and the references.
$1
We have FAQs and other posts in the sidebar that provide links and references to additional resources.
That may be Molly Burke.
I've watched a number of her earlier videos, and I think they can serve as stepping stones for sighted people learning about blind people. (Watching Tommy Edison's videos is another way to do this.)
u/yutaatakagi, u/OldManOnFire's words represent the spirit r/Blind. I'd say he does speak for more people than himself since he has the subjective experience of blindness, and he also can step outside and write candidly and clearly about blind and visually impaired community at large.
Your post was removed by the auto-moderator. As a precaution, posts from people whose profiles are less than a day old are blocked. But I would agree that, although what you're writing about is interesting, r/Blind isn't the right place for it.
When you find a home for your post, then here are a few things to consider:
* Shorter is better. On Reddit, many readers--including some who may be interested in your topic--will be turned off by a long post that reads like a written lecture. An invitation to discuss should be short and have some kind of hook--just like any invitation. (I'm gonna try to be funny here, and not in a mean way.) Imagine if I encountered you on the street and said, "Hi, I work in assistive technology and I'd like to tell you about geometric transforms for perspective correction..." and then I talk for three minutes straight before inviting the other person their thoughts or comments.
* Make your intention clear at the outset. If you want to engage in a discussion, the first sentence or two--which may be all that a Redditor encounters while scrolling--should ask a question to which you want the answer. If you'd like to inform people about a topic, then an alternative is an Ask Me Anything post.
* Ask My Anything ("AMA") posts tend to be reserved for people who are (relatively) well know in their field. I don't usually read them, but they're often invited posts: an author, musician, athlete, or some other person who typically fields questions in public is invited to answer questions on Reddit. Questions are often people by people already familiar with them, such as avid readers of an author who did X to character Y in the long-running series of novels called Z.
* With a few exceptions, each subreddit is a neighborhood. Live in the neighborhood for a while before posting: read the existing threads, comment on a few, and see how it goes. Enculturate yourself. Maybe acculturation will take place.
>may I ask if there are prevailing opinions within the community about
the romanticization of blind musicians such as Stevie Wonders as an
archetype?
I'll give my own answer to this one. I'm sighted but with some vision oddities, and I develop assistive tech for BVI people.
I've not once had any friends who are blind bring up Stevie Wonder unless they find out I'm a HUGE fan of Stevie Wonder, having grown up on his music. A friend who has actually met Stevie is one of the friends who never brought him up. I saw a photo of this friend with him. Stevie shows up at some conventions related to blindness tech, and has been influential in promoting assistive tech. (If you're unfamiliar with this, look up the history of his album Talking Book.)
This same friend who is blind also works in assistive tech, but gets tired of talking about blindness and formulating what to say about blindness so that sighted people understand.
​
Finally, I'll recommend the book There Plant Eyes by Godin as a single volume that dives into many, many questions that sighted folks have. As a scholar, you're likely to appreciate the writing style and the references.
$1
We have FAQs and other posts in the sidebar that provide links and references to additional resources.
yutaatakagi [OP] 3 points 1y ago
u/OldManOnFire and u/Rethunker. I understand it must be tiring to explain just one aspect of one's life to uninformed outsiders like myself over and over. However, as an outsider, I truly appreciate it. I knew conceptually that blind and visually impaired people are people first, and that their disability doesn't define them, but I don't think I had really internalized that point before talking with you here. So thank you very much for that.
I really appreciate all of the detailed responses! Thank you!
I really appreciate all of the detailed responses! Thank you!
yutaatakagi [OP] 3 points 1y ago
Thank you very much for your reply!
Thank you for the tips on writing a reddit post, I was thinking of reworking the post for another thread when I have a better sense of how to do so.
Thank you for the book recommendation. This seems like a valuable resource, and although I could not get the text itself, I watched some interviews with the author Leona Godin, and they are quite interesting.
Thank you for the tips on writing a reddit post, I was thinking of reworking the post for another thread when I have a better sense of how to do so.
Thank you for the book recommendation. This seems like a valuable resource, and although I could not get the text itself, I watched some interviews with the author Leona Godin, and they are quite interesting.
OldManOnFire 2 points 1y ago
Yeah, Molly Burke. I keep confusing her name with a jazz vocalist I sometimes listen to, Molly Burch. I can never remember which is which.
Great reply again, by the way. I'm glad you're here.
Great reply again, by the way. I'm glad you're here.
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