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Blind and Visually Impaired Community

Full History - 2022 - 05 - 12 - ID#unzuh1
12
How do you detect signs with braille on them? (self.Blind)
submitted by Grobkernig
(sorry for mistakes – non english person here)

(Context) Im designing a sign for disabled people that is meant to draw attention to a bell you can ring to ask for help getting up stairs. Its meant for stores where they dont have permanent ramps due to limited space. My client wants to put braille on there to make it readable for everyone.

Now my questions: How would a blind person know that the sign and bell is even there? There is no other signal or indicator (like tactile paving) that lets you know that you are at a place where you can ask for help! Do you even need help getting up stairs since most of you probably can walk just fine? Do you think there is any benefit to but braille on there?

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Sorry if I'm kind of ignorant, but I thought asking you would give me the most realistic insight.

​

EDIT: Thanks for all the input you gave me! Im going to take all of the new information into account in my future work. I really appreciate all the time you all took to give me real answers – you are a great community :-)
Mamamagpie 8 points 1y ago
$1

Your country might have its own standards.

Walk around your city and observe where Braille is used, like the above link pints out, “People who are blind or visually impaired benefit from braille signs that are placed in convenient and predictable locations.”
Grobkernig [OP] 1 points 1y ago
Thanks alot! I already do that and its actually really sad how seldom I have found braille in my city. Another thing is finding obstacles you wouldnt detect as a sighted person. There is actually a organisation close to my town where I can borrow one of these glasses that try to simulate a strong visual impairment. Im going to try them out soon and walk around my city.
OldManOnFire 6 points 1y ago
This is one of the reasons I think Braille is impractical and refuse to learn it. If you blanket every wall in Braille and I don't know it's there, you haven't helped me at all.

Blind people generally can manage stairs by themselves, but sometimes the underlying cause of our blindness causes other physical problems and we're in wheelchairs. I hope your client realizes blind people in wheelchairs are a small subset of the blind community and not the norm. Chances are good your client will go years between seeing a blind customer in a wheelchair.

But let's get to the specifics of your question. Some people need assistance navigating stairs, and some of the people who do will be blind. How can they know to ring the bell?

Well, how do they know they need to go to the next floor? Either they're regular customers who already know what's on the next floor, or someone told them the next floor is where they can find what they're looking for.

Regular customers already know about the stairs and the bell - if they couldn't ring the bell or navigate the stairs by themselves they wouldn't be regular customers.

And finally we arrive: what about the new, blind customer in a wheelchair who doesn't know there's a bell to ring but somehow knows the second floor has what he's after?

Your client's blind customer isn't stoopid. He will ask for assistance if he needs it, and if he doesn't know there's a bell to ring he will ask for assistance the old fashioned way, using words.

Yeah, your client might be surprised, but we can talk!

Wait, unless we're blind, deaf, and in a wheelchair, yet somehow shopping by ourselves. In that case, signage in Braille is probably the least of our concerns.
Grobkernig [OP] 6 points 1y ago
THANK YOU! This was the answer I hoped for – thanks for taking your time to help. I just really dont want to engage in some kind of "greenwashing" (but for the disabled – "disabled washing" sounds strange) – so that my client can say that he has a barrier-free shopping-environment with no real value for disabled people. But sometimes its not easy to get an answer with real life experience rather that some "official guidelines".
I guess there is no easy and general solution to this problem – but I can try my best to get close to it :-)


Have a nice day and thanks again.
OldManOnFire 5 points 1y ago
You're certainly welcome.

I'm sort of known as the patient one on r/Blind, the one who answers all the stoopid questions with patience, always assuming the best intentions of the OP even when their questions are, um, questionable.

But today I unleashed the inner snark. The more I wrote the more I felt your client was patronizing us, and the more I wrote the less I held back. Very unlike me, but I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Grobkernig [OP] 5 points 1y ago
Haha – I actually enjoyed your answer. It gave me a pretty good insight on the frustration these stoopid questions can trigger. He is absolutely patronizing you, but I just spoke to him and he was pretty open to the tings that you told me. So today you made two kind of ignorant people a lot less ignorant. Thanks again.
Rethunker 2 points 1y ago
Tommy Edison has a video dedicated to finding Braille signs. Here’s the YouTube link:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fYLdlO96uaM


And there’s a way to find them even for the people u/OldManOnFire mentioned, but it’ll take a bit of time. I specifically talked about this with a totally blind person who is short.

If some method to find Braille signs doesn’t work for everybody, it doesn’t work well enough.
Wolfocorn20 3 points 1y ago
That snarky comment gave me a much needed grin. Thanks :)
ultamentkiller 4 points 1y ago
I think all signs should have braille on them because I have the right to read it if I want to read it. Also, I recognize that this is very impractical and will never happen.
lvlint67 3 points 1y ago
I'd be tempted to try to save you from the "have you been hurt in a car crash" billboard advertisements local lawyers put up ... Everywhere... But yeah you're right. If you choose it'd be nice if it was an option.
Grobkernig [OP] 1 points 1y ago
I agree :D There is a lot of written stuff in the world where the only thing you get from is a headache and a bad mood.
TechnicalPragmatist 2 points 1y ago
I agree.
Grobkernig [OP] 1 points 1y ago
Okay, now I feel a little bit more ignorant that I even questioned this. Im definitely going to put braille on there – even if the sign itself is hard to find. If you find it you should be given the opportunity to read it. Thanks for pointing out the obvious.
TechnicalPragmatist 1 points 1y ago
I am more than capable of walking up the stairs by myself and usually will do it unless I am lost then I’ll ask for help but I am kind of independent and stubborn like that.

I would say ideally every sign has braille on it, and the fact that so many signs don’t have braille I assume this one does not but if it does I would be more than pleased and delighted.

I am in the tech industry so I try to find technological solutions too.

Does your client have a website, part of it is also putting it on the website as well that if they need assistance there is a bell at the stairs or in the lobby and if you need help don’t hesitate to ring it. Or please give us a call at xxxxxxxxx number.

But the braille signage would be interesting and useful.

Is there a way. To redo the flooring so there would be say tactile feedback?
Grobkernig [OP] 1 points 1y ago
Unfortunately this is for a small shoe store in a very small town – they dont have a Website or the money to rebuild the flooring or do other expensive things. But they want to do what they can – so I try to find an acceptable middle ground.
TechnicalPragmatist 1 points 1y ago
Hmm… I see.
PrincessDie123 1 points 1y ago
So most of us who take orientation and mobility classes are taught about Braille guidelines for public buildings and warned about types of buildings that have it and that don’t have to follow it.
Unfortunately since it’s usually sighted people making and applying them though there are many errors and inconsistencies so it’s just easier to flag someone down to help.
If you *really* want a service bell for someone to come assist maybe a motion activated sound box programmed to say “please ring bell here for assistance” or something next to the bell itself? That doesn’t account for the blind and deaf community but the odds of people with additional struggles not bringing their own aid is pretty low.
Most of us learn a routine and try to stick to it or bring someone to help us.
Grobkernig [OP] 2 points 1y ago
Thats why I came here! While I researched this topic I found so many official guidelines where the given information wasnt satisfying and I had the feeling that a lot of questions where not answered. Its just like you said: sighted people can be pretty blind when it comes to changing their perception of the world and to empathize with disabled people. But some of us are really trying.
PrincessDie123 2 points 1y ago
Oh yeah it’s not on purpose at all it’s just really difficult to gain a new perspective when it’s not something you have to think about all the time, that’s why I always think it’s cool when people come in and ask us stuff like this so we can work together for a solution!
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