I've used a PC before but haven't really liked it. I use an iPhone and love it, so I'd imagine the Mac is the hit with blind people more than the PC, because it's Apple and it has VoiceOver, which gives me no problems on my phone, but I'm just going off my experience with iPhones, so it could be totally different/the accessibility/ease would be worse than on an iPhone, I have absolutely no idea. I have a PC but I don't use it at all and I don't know much about how to use it. I don't want to try because I'm super intimidated by it, but I might not be so intimidated by a Mac since it's an Apple product with VoiceOver which I'm more comfortable with and since I'd be starting from scratch in learning how to use it. How do you guys like using a Mac versus a PC? Are there pros and cons to each? Context: I'm totally blind so I'd need all the accessibility/visual help I can get from a machine that's designed primarily for the sighted world. That's also something that intimidates me, computers are designed primarily for sighted people, so there could be something that I miss or can't access.
Fridux16 points1y ago
My experience with screen-readers on a PC is limited to NVDA on Windows and Orca on Linux, and I've used VoiceOver on MacOS a lot longer than I've used the other two screen-readers since I'm primarily a Mac user.
In an ideal world where every application is built with accessibility in mind, I think that VoiceOver on MacOS wins, however that's not the world we live in, as even Apple neglects accessibility on MacOS, leading to a worse experience browsing the web and interacting with built-in applications like the Terminal. VoiceOver is also built under the assumption that it is the responsibility of apps to adapt to the screen-reader so it provides very little in terms of scripting options. You can script VoiceOver using AppleScript or JavaScript, but since Apple removed the ability to script system events at some point, the ability to script VoiceOver is quite limited compared to NVDA's or Orca's. Therefore although I'm a Mac user and I do find VoiceOver to be more consistent and beginner friendly, I think that the experience provided by both NVDA and Orca is superior.
I must also alert you to the fact that navigating using VoiceOver on MacOS is a bit different from navigating on iOS. The reason is because user interfaces on MacOS are a lot more complex, so the navigation is hierarchical rather than flat like the default on iOS. In theory this makes navigating easier, but again in practice the hierarchy doesn't always make sense so you end up having to search a lot until you become familiar with the user interface of each application and start marking important elements as hotspots.
One last thing to keep in mind is that, from my experience, Apple doesn't give a crap about accessibility bug reports, whereas NVDA developers are very quick to address problems.. Caret web browsing on MacOS has been broken at least since I started using VoiceOver 8 years ago, sometimes when you use the arrow keys a lot to navigate text one of them seems to get stuck, and there's a bug in most American English speech synthesizers that for some reason makes them spell out the first 30 characters of any word longer than that.
So, to answer your question, VoiceOver is more consistent and beginner friendly, but in my opinion you you should aim at using what's best rather than what's easiest, because while the experience of learning how to navigate Windows or a Gnome desktop on Linux might seem daunting at first, it will pay off in the long run..
As for why I use MacOS primarily, that is because nothing else competes with the integration provided by the Apple ecosystem.
benblatch2 points1y ago
TLDR: buy a PC and reaper. Thank me later. Long post below. I would suggest a PC. VoiceOver on Mac OS has a lot of issues and doesn't get the needed attention from apple that it needs. I had an imac 5k 27inch that I sold because I couldn't take the VoiceOver issues (mainly the busy busy announcements) and I bought a windows laptop and it was the best dicision I made. NVDA on windows is better. Also, if you are doing audio production, and this is just my personal oppinion, reaper on windows is the way to go. If you need virtual instruments you can get Komplete Kontrol and a keyboard. The learning curve is pretty easy to grasp once you get the hang of it. If you need help with setting up, reaperaccessibility.com has links to a getting started tutorial. there is a whatsapp group and an email list for asking questions. It comes with everything you need to get started (minus virtual instruments,) but you can fill the lack of virtual instruments with Komplete Kontrol and one of their keyboards. Getting a license for Reaper was the best 60 dollars I ever spent and allows me to do a lot of things that I couldn't do on my mac with Logic or Protools.
[deleted]1 points1y ago
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Marconius3 points1y ago
I've been a power user for both Mac and Windows since I was a kid, and I strongly prefer the Mac for everything I do. Building and testing websites, programming in Python, writing, managing media, music and video production, I'm just completely used to the flow of MacOS and figuring out and learning VoiceOver on it was easy for me after having lost my vision. It's always personal preference based on what you are trying to do, and MacOS VoiceOver is definitely a different beast altogether from iOS, but there are enough similarities that it's fairly easy to pick it up, even down to using the touchpad of a laptop exactly as you would touch and use the rotor on your iPhone and navigate the interface.
I was taught both Jaws and NVDA for Windows 7 and 10, and I just personally don't find them to be nearly as fast or as intuitive for what I'm used to doing over on the Mac side of my computer. If you want to get into audio production, though, you'll find much more support in the Mac community overall in terms of editing, mastering, sampling, and recording.
BexTheMixer [OP]1 points1y ago
Yeah, I have heard that about audio production, that's why I've been curious to know others' thoughts who've actually used the two before I actually try out a Mac.
Laser_Lens_43 points1y ago
I fell into the exact same trap, so I’ll say this. Voiceover for Mac is nothing like voiceover for iOS. Apple gives it nowhere near as much attention. It’s so frustrating that I recently wrote to Tim Cook about it. It works, but you’re going to be screaming obscenities along the way. Unless you’re doing content creation, I cannot in good faith recommend a Mac
BexTheMixer [OP]2 points1y ago
Oh... Well thanks for the honest advice haha. That's surprising though. Apple is great with their iPhone accessibility support, so why aren't they on Mac?
Laser_Lens_41 points1y ago
My best guess is because the market share of the Mac is tiny compared to the iPhone. Last I checked, iPhones make up a little over half of their total revenue while Macs only make up a few percentage points
BexTheMixer [OP]2 points1y ago
Ohhh... Well that's disappointing.
Laser_Lens_41 points1y ago
I should add they’re not completely useless. I use an M1 Mac mini daily as an audio production machine with logic pro and I love it, but voiceover frustrates me enough that I would never consider using a Mac for anything other than a production machine. Some blind people have different experiences, and that’s valid. Unfortunately the only really good way of figuring out whether you’ll like it or not is to give one a try. You do get 14 days to return Apple products so if you’re a fast learner, that might be a good option for you
LilacRose323 points1y ago
As well as personal preference there are some other things to consider: Do you want to use specific software? Cost If you work - what do they provide?
I have NVDA on my personal laptop. Everywhere I’ve worked has issued windows as standard- and I use Zoomtext on these as the accessibility of some software is poor
BexTheMixer [OP]1 points1y ago
Well, I just want one so I can use it for the things I can't already do, like I'd want to expand the amount of things I can do in the audio editing/music producing world, and also I'd like to be able to put MP3 files I have onto my local files with Spotify myself rather than relying on someone else to do it for me. That's about all I'd use it for, I think everything else I do is working fine with just my iPhone and BrailleSense 6.
Wooden_Suit55802 points1y ago
Audacity is a very good audio editing program that works on both windows and Mac computers. Also I have been dabbling around with audio editing on iOS and I found the following up very voiceover friendly. Hokusai https://apps.apple.com/us/app/hokusai-audio-editor/id432079746
BexTheMixer [OP]2 points1y ago
Ah yeah, I have Hokusai and love it, but I want to be able to do more, like strip vocals from songs. I saw this one YT channel who does it so cleanly, and I think they said they just isolate the 5 point 1 channel or something, not quite sure what that means/how you do it, but I don't think you can do that with Hokusai. I'd also like to be able to make my own music. I have used the program Sonar on a Windows computer before, and while I'm familiar with it, I just get frustrated because the computer is old and it takes like ten minutes to power on, and then sometimes it shuts down when I'm in the middle of doing something. So that's completely killed my motivation to do music stuff. I haven't made anything in over two years, but I want to start up again.
[deleted]3 points1y ago
It is all perspective and personal preference. No one can decide this for you. I am a mac user and apple all the way. More blind people use windows for sure. Or as you call it a PC. I use a mac personally and love it. The keystrokes are simpler on windows but they are both different. For macs you use a lot of keystrokes and shortcuts and different ways to navigate things. All of it really comes down to personal preference.
benblatch2 points1y ago
I would say get a PC because it's better accessibility. Mac OS has a lot of issues for voiceover.
CosmicBunny972 points1y ago
Personally, I prefer PC (with JAWS or NVDA). I used a Mac when I lost my vision until halfway through 2021 and it was a clunky, buggy mess (in my opinion). For me, it took longer to do what I needed to do with VoiceOver. I switched to PC and it was like a breath of fresh air.
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I will say, however, if you're low vision, I really liked using Mac and its magnifier. I used Mac from 2010-2019 as a low vision user. However, I also like the different colour mouse options that Windows provides.
Mr5t1k2 points1y ago
Overall, I think PC’s are much more accessible.
lightsrage851 points1y ago
for me pcs work better with jaws. I prefer how i can use the mouse from the keyboard with jaws. I just never got object nav down with nvda. it just doesn't click with my brain. and i use the one core voices with nvda cause i cannot afford elequence right now maybe some day and i dispize e speak so yeah. but sometimes i use nvda. depends on what i am doing. so for now i will stay on my cheaper to buy if it dies pc with my jaws.
LittleLostPrince2 points1y ago
I will be straight up honest that I am a bit bias. I prefer mac 100%.
That being said, I have limited experience with Windows, but I know there are other forms of screen readers available for Windows that are not available for Mac, like NVDA (as well as the built-in Narrator). I've only used NVDA and Narrator and they both seemed a too confusing to me. So I tend to stick with Mac.
I find Voiceover on Mac to be easier, more customizable, and the voices are much better. Mac computers in general seem to be easier to use, crash less, the computers last much longer (my first lasted 7 years), and run faster.
[deleted]1 points1y ago
I agree with you actually. My first one is still in existence but not in my possession I have had macks last for 10 plus years. My second one first big imac 21 inches is going to be 8 this december and it works just fine, it’s become my father’s browse the internet. Watch youtube, do little things, it’s holding up. Well. I don’t own my first mac anymore but it’s a macbook pro and it is in the possession of a friend. I don’t. Think he uses it a lot a lot but as far as I know still operating.
Wooden_Suit55802 points1y ago
I am totally blind, and I also teach assistive technology to other blind and low vision people. I am versed in both windows Mac android. If you’re interested in getting a MacBook I would recommend that you do the following. If you have an iOS device or an iPad, go into settings, then to accessibility, then down to keyboard. Once you were there enable full keyboard access for your iOS device. The other thing that you will need to do this is an external Bluetooth keyboard. This method will allow you to use your iOS device as if it were a Mac. This way you can get some practice in learning the hot keys in the keyboard commands. One other thing to the mystify the computers a little bit almost all computers use the same functionality. Alt F4 on windows will close a program CMD +4 on a Mac does the same thing the keys are in the same position. CMD plus tab will allow you to skip around on a Mac. Whereas alt and tab will switch you to your different programs on a Windows computer. It is the same thing once you enable to full keyboard access on iOS devices it has a list of all of the keyboard commands. These are the same commands that are used on a MacBook. So essentially you could turn your iOS device into a knock off Mac computer. Here are the steps from Apple on how to do the full keyboard access.
https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/keyboards-ipha7c3927eb/ios I hope this helps you out a little bit.
lightsrage852 points1y ago
oh I did not know i could basically cmd tab on a bluetooth keyboard on my phone. wow. all the things I just bought this arctic keyboard and some of the ways i gotta do the keys is interesting. like i cant just hit the dash key for magic tap i have to hit like cmd caps lock. or something yeah cmd caps lock. for the modifier. and i can't type so i am off to an appointment as much as i would love to skip the heat and dentist and stay here commenting on reddit.
BexTheMixer [OP]2 points1y ago
Oh wow! That's really cool! I didn't even know you could do that! Thanks so much!
[deleted]1 points1y ago
What is the benefit of this for most other users besides the op. Just curious. Is there a benefit of enabling this?
r_12352 points1y ago
Depends what you want to use it for. For example, If it's music editing, Macs have some nice softwares. If it's anything else, I think that windows will do it with less headake.
I am hevyly tilted towards Windows, simply because compaired to voiceover, NVDA is way simple to use, way more intuitive. But as others said, everyone has their own preference.
Macs have some nice bells and wissles, sexy voices, earcons, some nice applications.
Windows isn't perfect either. Applications are inaccessible sometimes, but there are ways to deal with. The number of diversity on windows systems, I mean, if 1 app doesn't work, you have bunch of them to replace them. Most of them are free, unlike Mac which itself is damn expencive. Besides, not everything is rosy on Macs. Their voiceover had suffered allot with their browser, Safari. It doesn't have strait up navigation, like Windows based screen readers. Besides, you can't really add more significant functionality to voiceover. For NVDA, it's open source. So not only there are hundreds of addons to make it work nicely, but if you don't like something, if you have the programming knowhow, you can program NVDA to work the way you want.
Besides, if you are in to programming, windows has so many options,Hell, it can run linux inside windows. Some of the audio games as well, they run on only Windows systems, as far as I know.
You know what, you should buy a Mac for few days, try if it works for ya, if it doesn't, within 14 days, you can return it. Buy a windows laptop then. But, also, check the apple store policy before buying, think that 14 day rule is not available in every country.
I'll give this to Apple, they make damn sexy laptops! Wish if I could put Windows on one of the latest MacBooks.
BexTheMixer [OP]2 points1y ago
Ah, yeah. I love audio editing/producing music, and I've been super interested in learning how to do it on a Mac. I think I'd also use it for getting MP3 files I have on my phone into my local files on Spotify, because right now I have no way to do that without relying on someone else. Does it take long to power on like Windows? Also, are there a lot of visual traps you get stuck in that you don't know how to get out of? I don't think I'd use it for much else beyond that, because my phone and BrailleSense 6 do those other things just fine, and I don't know the first thing about programming, so programming NVDA wouldn't really help me. My brother has a Mac actually, so maybe I could try out his and see how I like it.
[deleted]2 points1y ago
I don’t know if spotify is accessible on the mac but I could check and I am not sure how accessible it is with windows.
BexTheMixer [OP]1 points1y ago
Yeah, I've never tried on either so I have no idea.
[deleted]2 points1y ago
Okay I have tried it yes. It is accessible on the front of it there are some unlable buttons but you can lable these or memorize what they are for. Fortunately it’s much more accessible then last time or when I last tried. Looks like the web player with an app plus unlabeled buttons at the top but much better than what it was. I couldn’t even use it before.
impablomations2 points1y ago
> For example, If it's music editing, Macs have some nice softwares. If it's anything else, I think that windows will do it with less headake.
Windows is more than capable for running music software like DAWS. I've had over 30 tracks including plugins and VSTis running with minimal latency
[deleted]0 points1y ago
Haha! Whoa! Not quite.
Macs can also run virtual machines but not the m1 chip ones. Yes for intel macs.
You can have some application choices sone are free and some are not. Depends but yes nvda has more add on supports.
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