Blind and Visually Impaired Community
Last sync: 1y ago
↑
52
↓
[rant] accessibility isn't one-dimensional (self.Blind)
submitted 2d ago by soongtypedelta
i haven't seen this here, but i'm honestly really bothered by the idea that an app is accessible to blind people when it's accessible for screenreaders and nothing else. i'm partially blind and there are so many supposedly "accessible" apps that are unusable/hard to use/hurt to use for me because they don't offer/support large text size at all or the text size shows up as large but it messes with the formatting so much that i can't navigate it at all. so often i have to choose between not using an app i want/need or using it in a way that causes discomfort. it's also not very accessible to only be able to access alt text with a screenreader.
i've seen the RNIB list instagram, tiktok and twitter as "(mostly) accessible" despite them not supporting text sizes above like 130% and regularly straining my eyes trying to read stuff. a lot of people are treating magnification accessibility as less important than screenreader accessibility.
i pretty much always have to figure all of this out by myself because most of the community info or info from organisations about accessibility is unreliable, because everyone keeps forgetting that blindness is a spectrum and that i exist. like, surely i can't be the only person who uses magnifying stuff rather than screenreaders.
i've seen the RNIB list instagram, tiktok and twitter as "(mostly) accessible" despite them not supporting text sizes above like 130% and regularly straining my eyes trying to read stuff. a lot of people are treating magnification accessibility as less important than screenreader accessibility.
i pretty much always have to figure all of this out by myself because most of the community info or info from organisations about accessibility is unreliable, because everyone keeps forgetting that blindness is a spectrum and that i exist. like, surely i can't be the only person who uses magnifying stuff rather than screenreaders.
AutoModerator 1 points 2d ago
###r/Blind is back up but the struggle goes on. Until we have the same access to Reddit's content as our sighted friends we insist Reddit allows us to use the apps which meet our needs.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.*
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.*
rnaw94 16 points 2d ago
I share your frustration, I can't believe it is so difficult to support larger text on most apps.
I'm not sure what we can really do about it though, beyond leaving negative reviews on the app store.
Being in the "in between" phase of not being fully blind but having very bad vision is a frustrating place to be, I think mainly because it is so varied and explaining it to sighted people is always tricky.
I'm not sure what we can really do about it though, beyond leaving negative reviews on the app store.
Being in the "in between" phase of not being fully blind but having very bad vision is a frustrating place to be, I think mainly because it is so varied and explaining it to sighted people is always tricky.
soongtypedelta [OP] 5 points 2d ago
i've kinda given up even on reviews and support requests. it's so much work for something that never really does anything. i usually just limit my time on these apps which is a shame because i do love making content.
Central_Control 7 points 2d ago
I don't think it's tricky at all. App developers are just lazy and uneducated about the disabled. They're happy if they just get *something* working. Adding accessibility is at the end of their list.
Why? Because that is what they were taught. Education about the disabled and their needs is seriously inadequate. Almost completely lacking. How can you prepare for something nobody taught you was important?
Yeah, negative review the shit out of them. You think that'll have any effect on TikTok or YouTube? No. No, it won't.
Why? Because that is what they were taught. Education about the disabled and their needs is seriously inadequate. Almost completely lacking. How can you prepare for something nobody taught you was important?
Yeah, negative review the shit out of them. You think that'll have any effect on TikTok or YouTube? No. No, it won't.
InvestingImprovement 7 points 1d ago
Working as a software engineer and wanted to give some clarity to the above.
Accessibility is depriotized in the current market but you're giving too much responsibility to the app developers. At the end of the day project managers are the ones that push work forward complete with requirements. An issue is that accessibility is often put on as an afterthought which makes it less performative. If you want an accessible app it's almost always better to make it accessible from design. The issue is at the beginning stages companies have other priorities that affect their bottom line.
This push down from the top then affects how developers upskill themselves. Why take an accessibility by design course when you won't be given any projects where you can implement that knowledge over some A.I course that lets you put another buzzword into your resume or upskill in your job?
Negative reviews can have a small impact on userbase if it's thought out and using competitor's products and leaving positive reviews can have a small impact on market sentiment.
Accessibility is depriotized in the current market but you're giving too much responsibility to the app developers. At the end of the day project managers are the ones that push work forward complete with requirements. An issue is that accessibility is often put on as an afterthought which makes it less performative. If you want an accessible app it's almost always better to make it accessible from design. The issue is at the beginning stages companies have other priorities that affect their bottom line.
This push down from the top then affects how developers upskill themselves. Why take an accessibility by design course when you won't be given any projects where you can implement that knowledge over some A.I course that lets you put another buzzword into your resume or upskill in your job?
Negative reviews can have a small impact on userbase if it's thought out and using competitor's products and leaving positive reviews can have a small impact on market sentiment.
drpengu1120 4 points 1d ago
Yea I'm also a software developer, and can say that at my company there are a handful of devs who are trained and REALLY want to make our app more accessible, but what little progress is ever made is done in off hours because accessibility is basically not on the list of priorities for the company.
Central_Control 7 points 2d ago
All we can do is support the developers that include extra accessibility features and withdraw support from developers that don't. And endlessly talk about it, so that some of them actually finally catch on.
Videogamer69420 5 points 1d ago
This probably one of if not the biggest problems I run into when getting people to understand what accessibility means, and how it differs for everyone. It’s not unreasonable to find a way to support large text on most apps. I totally understand how and why you’re frustrated
soongtypedelta [OP] 2 points 1d ago
yes exactly! like i'm not an app dev obviously but i feel like even i can come up with stuff. one big issue for me is that with larger text size, phrases and words in menus are often cut off and i have to figure out what they are from context. which especially hard for stuff like discord channels. i wish they'd just have an option where you long-press on the channel name and it would show you the full name, kind of like what iOS does when you long-press on the time and you're past a certain text size it'll show you the time in your selected size in the middle of the screen
Jazzlike_Course1313 5 points 1d ago
Agreed. Its hard. It seems like every site is now formatted to be looked at ONLY on phones. The static elements that make what Im trying to see only on the bottom third of the screen. Any CTRL zoom and they become unusable completely. And even just making text and icons a little bigger in my PCs settings makes certain programs just not fit on the screen.
I dont want to keep pretending to look at my phone, when voiceover barely even works and I have a giant computer monitor. But hey, this world's not meant for my eyes.
I dont want to keep pretending to look at my phone, when voiceover barely even works and I have a giant computer monitor. But hey, this world's not meant for my eyes.
soongtypedelta [OP] 3 points 1d ago
ugh yeah. i don't even use a computer most of the time because i haven't figured out the accessibility yet but even on the phone it's bad. words are cut off and i have to guess by context what they mean, or i get some kind of error message popping up on screen and can't get out of it because it's not truly compatible with my text size. all of it's annoying.
anniemdi 3 points 1d ago
You are not alone!!
I am multiply disabled (thanks cerebral palsy!) So I struggle to see, to hear and to use my hands as it relates to internet technology.
I pretty much employ every accessibility option from large print (hello 200-250%) to support for taping the right things to not swiping the wrong things to only using screen readers for long articles or book chapters or in short bursts. I can't physically or audiologically keep up with one to do everything via screen reader. Using a desktop isn't really feasible for me. A phone or a tablet that I can use hands free while working on standing or laying in supportive posistions or sitting with support is how I need to access things a lot of the time.This really doesn't even fully address all my needs.
It's absolutely frustrating when the only accessibility consideration is screen reader access.
I am multiply disabled (thanks cerebral palsy!) So I struggle to see, to hear and to use my hands as it relates to internet technology.
I pretty much employ every accessibility option from large print (hello 200-250%) to support for taping the right things to not swiping the wrong things to only using screen readers for long articles or book chapters or in short bursts. I can't physically or audiologically keep up with one to do everything via screen reader. Using a desktop isn't really feasible for me. A phone or a tablet that I can use hands free while working on standing or laying in supportive posistions or sitting with support is how I need to access things a lot of the time.This really doesn't even fully address all my needs.
It's absolutely frustrating when the only accessibility consideration is screen reader access.
drpengu1120 2 points 1d ago
The problem is at the level of the programs people use to create the apps in my experience. Occasionally I have to make GUIs for my work, and the default way of doing it makes it easy to layout the GUI with hard-coded sizes that only work with the default text size.
Every time I have to use an internal tool at work, the first thing I have to do is open the code and remove all of the things that hard code like the height or width of boxes for labels and buttons and make it so it automatically reflows. It's actually LESS code usually, but the graphical editors people use to make the GUIs automatically generates all of that code.
Every time I have to use an internal tool at work, the first thing I have to do is open the code and remove all of the things that hard code like the height or width of boxes for labels and buttons and make it so it automatically reflows. It's actually LESS code usually, but the graphical editors people use to make the GUIs automatically generates all of that code.
Sad-Application-2103 2 points 1d ago
Unpopular opinion, but here goes it anyway.
Accessibility is and has not been improving for years. People say it's better, but really, screen readers and apps are just playing catch up to the continuous adaptations pushed out by mainstream. While I'm a full time screen reader user, I feel and relate with your frustrations, albeit in different ways.
Accessibility is and has not been improving for years. People say it's better, but really, screen readers and apps are just playing catch up to the continuous adaptations pushed out by mainstream. While I'm a full time screen reader user, I feel and relate with your frustrations, albeit in different ways.
soongtypedelta [OP] 2 points 1d ago
honestly i'll have to mostly agree. ever since relying on magnification there's barely been any improvement. i can't say none because apps like discord have been unusable for me a few years ago but work now, but it's still really bad.
Sad-Application-2103 1 points 1d ago
I'm practically having cursor jump issues on most apps on every operating system besides windows, although I'm able to get even JAWS to jump. Discord on iOS, forget it altogether. Tiktok, nah. I use android for that. And the list just goes on and on and on. :(
PrincessDie123 2 points 1d ago
I feel you it’s really annoying when I magnify the text per accessibility features integrated with the app only to find everything jumbled and no buttons clickable anymore. Annoying.
SLJ7 2 points 1d ago
Nope, this is a pretty common frustration and something we try to emphasize at the company I work for. One of the reasons Twitter got the ALT button on photos is for situations like this. I wish other apps would do the same. It doesn't hurt to know how to use a screen reader if you don't already, just for situations like this; but you shouldn't have to. Supporting text adjustments is not that hard; hell, a lot of it is already baked into the code of applications and websites because they have to conform to different screen sizes. If an app doesn't have basic appearance settings and/or conform to your system accessibility settings, that app is not accessible.
For the record, Tiktok accessibility for screen readers is terrible too. And their accessibility help page only tells (sighted) creators how to add captions and other accessibility to their videos. It's some of the most blatant ableism I've ever seen. So maybe don't take the RNIB too seriously if they're claiming it's accessible.
For the record, Tiktok accessibility for screen readers is terrible too. And their accessibility help page only tells (sighted) creators how to add captions and other accessibility to their videos. It's some of the most blatant ableism I've ever seen. So maybe don't take the RNIB too seriously if they're claiming it's accessible.
soongtypedelta [OP] 1 points 1d ago
yes, this. i've literally just had someone tell me that if something is screenreader accessible it's "fully accessible" and.. yeah no. idk how they got from me saying so many things are clearly not accessible to me to telling me they're totally fully accessible. weird. it's definitely part of the problem of our access needs being erased. so much for one-dimensional accessibility.
i mess around with voice over sometimes to see how it works and i actually had to rely on it a few years ago after surgery. the annoying thing with that is if you don't want everyone knowing your business you have to wear headphones all the time.
i mess around with voice over sometimes to see how it works and i actually had to rely on it a few years ago after surgery. the annoying thing with that is if you don't want everyone knowing your business you have to wear headphones all the time.
SLJ7 1 points 3h ago
Not if you train yourself to understand it past about 70%, and especially not if you use one of the robotic voices like Eloquence or the non-enhanced, non-premium versions of other system voices. They're less pleasant to listen to but they're very responsive and fast, and nobody can understand it. I guess I'm just used to headphones though; I have open-ear ones and airpods pro and everything in between. Wonder how often I'd wear them if I didn't use a screen reader.
Keep making noise about the visual accessibility issues, and about anyone who definitively calls something accessible when it's not. It's often easier to test, so there's really no excuse. Facebook and Instagram should absolutely have a way to view alt text; it's absurd that they don't.
BTW, what are you using for Reddit on mobile? Just curious.
Keep making noise about the visual accessibility issues, and about anyone who definitively calls something accessible when it's not. It's often easier to test, so there's really no excuse. Facebook and Instagram should absolutely have a way to view alt text; it's absurd that they don't.
BTW, what are you using for Reddit on mobile? Just curious.
r_1235 2 points 21h ago
It's really hard to define layout for every kind of zoom level.
Youtube does it really well, I use it as an example for devs.
Youtube does it really well, I use it as an example for devs.
soongtypedelta [OP] 1 points 18h ago
certainly not the mobile app unfortunately
Crifrald 3 points 1d ago
Screen-reader accessibility is kind of a bottom line, so if something is fully accessible using a screen-reader then it is fully accessible to anyone with any level of sight and normal hearing.
Designing apps to work well with dynamic font size is actually harder than designing apps for screen-readers, as the size of the fonts directly affects the layout of the app, making it impossible to define any kind of static layout.
All modern operating systems that I'm aware of provide the ability to zoom, which is how I used computers and smart phones during the final years of my sight.
And finally, accessibility and usability have different meanings.
Designing apps to work well with dynamic font size is actually harder than designing apps for screen-readers, as the size of the fonts directly affects the layout of the app, making it impossible to define any kind of static layout.
All modern operating systems that I'm aware of provide the ability to zoom, which is how I used computers and smart phones during the final years of my sight.
And finally, accessibility and usability have different meanings.
soongtypedelta [OP] 0 points 1d ago
except that every app that's screenreader accessible is clearly not "fully accessible" if it doesn't support my accessibility settings. if your definition of accessibility excludes many people's accessibility needs it's frankly not good and is a part of the problem of our needs constantly being erased. good job. if it's "accessible to people with any sight" how come i can't heckin use them lol. just tell me my accessibility needs don't matter and go.
Nighthawk321 1 points 3h ago
> Screen-reader accessibility is kind of a bottom line, so if something is fully accessible using a screen-reader then it is fully accessible to anyone with any level of sight and normal hearing.
Technically true, but just because a person with some sight is capable of using a screen reader, doesn’t mean it’s their preferred assistive technology or method they want to interact with the content. Kind of makes me think of asking for a non-braille reader to use a refreshable braille display. Sure they have the capability, but there’s a reason assistive technology for blind people with some vision exists.
Technically true, but just because a person with some sight is capable of using a screen reader, doesn’t mean it’s their preferred assistive technology or method they want to interact with the content. Kind of makes me think of asking for a non-braille reader to use a refreshable braille display. Sure they have the capability, but there’s a reason assistive technology for blind people with some vision exists.
boxer_dogs_dance -1 points 1d ago
that really sucks. I'm so sorry to hear about your experience.
Maybe r/askoldpeople might be a larger community where you could reasonably ask where to find sites that support magnification for text?
I know that a lot of older people need image magnification.
Maybe r/askoldpeople might be a larger community where you could reasonably ask where to find sites that support magnification for text?
I know that a lot of older people need image magnification.
catsiabell 1 points 1d ago
I work in tech and can confirm that most devs don’t even consider accessibility when designing apps. I try to change that where I can
This nonprofit website is run by volunteers.
Please contribute if you can. Thank you!
Our mission is to provide everyone with access to large-
scale community websites for the good of humanity.
Without ads, without tracking, without greed.
scale community websites for the good of humanity.
Without ads, without tracking, without greed.
©2023 HumbleCat Inc • HumbleCat is a 501(c)3 nonprofit based in Michigan, USA.