Bring your karma
Join the waitlist today
HUMBLECAT.ORG

Explain Like I'm Five | Don't Panic!

Last sync: 1y ago
2618
ELI5: Is a "good" singing voice determined by genetics? If so, can someone with a terrible singing voice overcome their genetics with training to sound pleasant and professional? (self.explainlikeimfive)
submitted 1d ago by Superb-Swimming-7579
phiwong 2293 points 1d ago
As you put "good" in quotes, I think that you already have an idea.

Genetics certainly plays a role in an individual's physiognomy. The voice is ultimately produced by a physical part of the body so genetics is definitely involved.

Here it might be useful to break the problem down.

1) There are physical limitations that can be improved with training and exercise and knowledge of how to best use what we have. Broadly speaking, doing vocal training will make nearly anyone sing "better". Better, in this sense, is producing tone evenly and in control, with less stress and developing the muscles and techniques to best utilize voice. It is "technical" training.

2) Musicality and musical talent is another thing. A trained vocalist can make sound properly but that is separate from their musical instinct and knowledge. This is the "artistic" part of being a singer. Exposure, experience, curiosity and motivation play a big role here. There are many singers (popular) who have little training and perhaps even "bad" voices but use their ability and develop their own style and preference and make it musical.

One of the greatest examples of this is Carole King. She is a tremendously talented and prolific songwriter. And she has one of the most popular albums ever (Tapestry). She actually has a pretty "lousy" voice objectively examined. She has limited vocal range, tends to screech slightly on high notes, raspy on the lows and doesn't really hold notes very well or with support. But her artistry is off the charts.
loaferbro 846 points 1d ago
I think another red herring example is children of musicians. Nancy Sinatra has had a successful career and many might think of course. That's Frank Sinatra's daughter. But the reality is she grew up surrounded by music and had a general aptitude for it before it was honed as a skill. Mozart's father was a composer and musician.

There's a whole music educational theory (Music Learning Theory) that prominently features MusicPlay, which is a method of developing musical language before and alongside spoken language. Small pitch patterns, rhythms, games to demonstrate high vs. low, loud vs. soft, etc.

You have to wonder, do you think you'd be a better singer if Celene Dion was singing your lullabies as a baby?
Pickledicklepoo 593 points 1d ago
So without even reading into it too much I can say that this matches my experience with my daughter.

We are musicians and I am autistic and I sing all the time as basically almost a stim, especially when it was just me and a tiny baby all day long. I would sing about what we were doing, I had specific songs for diaper change time and feeding time and bed time. I basically made up songs about all sorts of dumb shit. We also listened to lots of music and watched a lot of music on YouTube to pass the time (like the wiggles!)

My daughter started singing at the same time she started talking. She is not yet 3 but is already able to sing pretty well just because she has already basically got a year of practice under her belt. She wakes up singing whatever is in her head and sings all day long. She sings to herself while she is playing (basically children’s songs/nursery rhyme melody with stream of consciousness on top but there have been some gems such as Mary had a litte walrus and whatnot.)

I’m sure if she continues to enjoy it she will be a pretty good singer when she is older - she has parents who sing well enough for people to want to hear it sometimes and she practices singing whatever melody is in her little mind in the exact same way she practices speech. It’s basically like a second language
throwaway_afterusage 274 points 1d ago
>Mary had a litte walrus

this is the best thing I've heard in a while. I need the full version of this
Pickledicklepoo 178 points 1d ago
It’s the exact same as Mary had a little lamb and all its other variations such as Mary had a little (rest)camel, Mary had a frog frog, Mary had a giraffe…all of whom have fleece as white as snow I guess
CrazyBusTaker 40 points 1d ago
My son has been gleefully requesting “Mary had three little baby shark cars vroom vroom” at bedtime 🤯
Chelecossais 6 points 1d ago
The walrus was Paul. Barefoot.
Frost_Foxes 5 points 1d ago
How about the next best (read: worst) thing, the Happy Walrus Song
Chaostrosity 15 points 1d ago
I don't have kids but I can share the other side. My mom played piano and my dad guitar. It's probably why I picked it up early (piano lessons at 6) and other lessons later. Now I play piano and guitar.

And just like you, my dad also loved singing random stuff while he was doing things like cooking.

I have a brother and sister and even though they have no personal interest in playing music. My sister can sing decently and my brother can play piano.
BeanerAstrovanTaco 12 points 1d ago
> Mary had a litte walrus

I require the rest of these lyrics.
[deleted] 12 points 1d ago
[deleted]
Pickledicklepoo 1 points 20h ago
What you should do is basically find some sort of way to set up an in ear monitor for yourself (I have one that I can bring anywhere I need to that goes in between my mic and whatever it’s plugged into and has a headphone jack for the ear piece) when I was a kid I used to set my computer settings to basically feed the mic through the headphones. The point is that you improve by practicing when you can hear yourself properly
tiffshorse 1 points 19h ago
Yep. My toddler grandchild is already singing and trying to play the drums with her grandpa who is a professional musician. My daughter and some were immersed as well. They are all blessed with natural talent.
jakesboy2 1 points 21h ago
My kid is almost 2 and only knows a handful of words, but softly sings gibberish all the time and it’s so cute lol
catdoctor 4 points 1d ago
Please get this child a piano or guitar and teach her to read music at a young age.
Pickledicklepoo 1 points 20h ago
Don’t worry there are:

7 guitars
1 bass
Wind instruments of various capacity
Keyboard
Synths
Organ
Mandolin nobody plays
2 ukuleles

We will be disappointed if she wants to do sports (jk)
(additional comments not archived)
MissMurder8666 29 points 1d ago
Toni Braxton's dad was a singer as well. And ofc Miley Cyrus' dad lol. I feel these kids are going to be more musically inclined bc it would be nurtured young, whereas lots of us who love singing never had it nurtured. Even though we're objectively, naturally good, we aren't in the top 40 haha
Rubiks_Click874 33 points 1d ago
lots of parents raise their kids to be musical, but only a small percentage have an agent, a contract lawyer, contacts at a record company. maybe 1% could explain from experience how to be a star and successfully navigate the exploitative industry.

mine just forced me to take classical piano with Mrs. Tenenbaum... which sucked, at the time I wanted a trumpet and a sharkskin suit, probably Toni Braxton's dad would have been okay with that. If Billy Ray is your dad, you're not going to get yelled at for asking for an electric guitar and leather jacket.
AmateurHero 1 points 23h ago
Lots of people don’t realize that having a good aptitude for singing or playing music doesn’t necessarily translate to being a recording artist. There’s a relation, but they’re different beasts.

Back when I would watch American Idol, you could tell that come people were very talented singers but in over their heads as a recording artist. The luxury of performing a recorded song means that all of the musical intricacies have already been figured out. It’s just on the singer to have the technical chops to execute. There are other problem within the music industry, but I have a feeling that this is why we rarely saw more than two albums out of most winners yet quite a few top 8 placers had great careers.
ProfessorPetrus 1 points 23h ago
I'm with you man. Loved music but when I asked for a saxophone got a clarinet. Years later saved up to buy my own guitar but could not afford lessons. Music is a gift.
ArkyBeagle 1 points 18h ago
It's probably more like the story of Derek Trucks ( who is not particularly a singer; he married the singer ) . He just naturally had access to people who knew more, he was interested, he paid attention and did well. Apparently, his Dad was good at keeping him from hurting himself too badly. Some of the other Allman kids didn't fare as well.

Or most of Toto. If your Dad scores films or an AD, he'll have a better Rolodex. You still have to do the work...
physedka 25 points 1d ago
Some of it too is the surroundings beyond their actual parentage, but extended family, friends, and social group can influence too. There's a reason that so much of early American music came out of churches: that's where people came together and performed music together, so they had a better opportunity to hone their craft than those stuck at home singing along with a guitar or whatever.

Bringing that back to the Nancy Sinatra example, she was surrounded by music and musicians from a young age. You can easily imagine an "uncle" Dean Martin encouraging her to sing at like 8 years old and harmonizing with her, giving her tips about where to do a vocal run and when to wait to come in, etc. It builds confidence and teaches them how to not just sing, but how to perform.

An average kid taking lessons from a random teacher might never get that. I'm an example of that. I took piano and guitar lessons for most of my childhood, but it was largely just something I did alone. I can still play the instruments, but I never really learned much about playing with others or whatever. I would have no idea how to keep time with a live rhythm section (bass and drum), even though I understand how it works, theoretically. I didn't have any musicians or even musically inclined people in my extended family or social group, so who knows? Maybe I could have been a rock star if I had? Or maybe not. Ok, probably not.
Fnkyfcku 1 points 23h ago
That's honestly sad to hear. The absolute most fun I've ever had in my life was playing in a band. 4 people in a room making music together is just magical.
Zeusifer 1 points 22h ago
Never too late! I spent most of my life just playing stuff by myself at home, then got involved with a band as an adult in my 30s and had a blast. There will be a learning curve, but if you can play along with a song, you can do it. In some ways it's actually easier to play in a band because one of the things you learn is to play simpler, and play less, to leave enough space for the others. But if you have good musical instincts, it's not that hard. And really fun.
opopkl 4 points 1d ago
I suppose it helps if your family are all into the same thing. If your whole family are musical, then you're more likely to be encouraged to sing.
catdoctor 4 points 1d ago
I have often wondered if musical ability is affected by epigenetics. Children of musicians seem to be over-represented in the ranks of great musicians throughout history. Is that all environment and training? Is it genetic? Or can the parent's musical training and immersion actually alter their genes in a way that can be passed down to the children?
(additional comments not archived)
(additional comments not archived)
lankymjc 56 points 1d ago
When I learned to play piano, I was technically very good. I’ve got long and dexterous fingers and can produce complex patterns on the keys. But I have no sense of rhythm or musicality, so I treated it less like a performance and more like typing. I just didn’t get why that wasn’t enough.

My brother is a professional musician, and as well as being very talented on the technical side he also puts such performance into his work that he’s actually entertaining to watch perform, instead of my lousy key-tapping!
(additional comments not archived)
coreyhh90 50 points 1d ago
Another good example that you can see quickly is Ed Sheeran. He did an interview where he let everyone hear recordings of when he was younger and it sounds awful. During the interview he was trying to make a point that musicians aren't just "born able to sing well", a lot of work and practice goes into it, often a lot more than people give them credit for.
Brew78_18 43 points 1d ago
>musicians aren't just "born able to sing well", a lot of work and practice goes into it, often a lot more than people give them credit for.

I'm reminded of Jimi Hendrix, one of the greatest guitarists of all time. People often discuss "natural talent" being why, but every thing I've ever watched or read about the man, he practiced/played *obsessively*. Like, all the time. Every spare moment, even in the army.

I sometimes wonder if natural talent may actually be more of a natural obsession and willingness to practice.
Eudaimonium 1 points 23h ago
This is the exact sentiment I have and sometimes talk about with people, except I'm not as eloquent to put it into words as nicely.

I had a discussion with a friend's dad, who is a PE teacher, and he says some kids are obviously "talented" while others not. I begged to differ - a child in elementary school has had 7 years (or so) of exposure to various things.

Somebody like me, fascinated by TV and computers and stuff that has lights and makes sounds, would of course suck absolute balls in 1st year PE compared to a child who's only hobby was outside playing soccer all day.

At that point the conversation breaks down into semantics of what "talent" actually is. Is somebody who's tall "talented" for basketball? I know tall people who suck at basketball. Is it obsession and dedication to a craft? I mean... that's called exactly that. There is no magical divine force imbued into a person that somehow makes them supernaturally better than somebody else, which is what people who say "talent" make it sound like.
EunuchsProgramer 1 points 21h ago
I have twins, boy and girl. My daughter's first check up the pedestrian said, "this one's a mover, be careful she's going to start rolling super early." She did. From then on, she was just always really, really good at physical activities while my son was clumsy, slow, and uncoordinated. They eat the same. Spend the same amount of time outside. Do basically everything together. Get the same screen time. My son wants to be better at physical stuff and is more driven with sports and whatnot from cultural pressure. He certainly tries harder and is more determined. He just starts every new physical activity at a much lower starting place.
BirbHunter 1 points 17h ago
I used to think there was no such thing as talent, but… I’m not sure I agree anymore. I volunteered for a number of years as a coach for 16-year-old boys’ team. It was extracurricular, so the vast majority of the boys there were interested in what they were doing. And most of them were good kids who worked hard on self-improvement etc. But sometimes you’d get a kid and like… I don’t know how to describe it. They just had *vision*. They always made the right decision, instinctually. They just “got” the game - and were able to imbue their teammates with that understanding. And it had nothing to do with how long they’ve been playing - I actually recruited a boy who had absolutely no formal playing experience, just saw him goofing around with friends (who were experienced, but played on a different team). The coach who ran the program was like “yeah sure, bring a kid in off the street - guess he can sit on the bench and learn, that’s always useful”. This kid came in made himself a starter within a week and blew him away too. Made playoffs this kid’s first real season playing with him in a pretty vital role. I had one other kid with similar “vision” in my three years of coaching, but he had more playing experience, so it was easier to say “well he’s just had time to figure it out” if one was so inclined. But both times it was honestly incredible to see, because their understanding of what needed to happen and how they were going to make it happen really did seem supernatural.

The thing that people don’t get/don’t want to get because it’s a convenient excuse for their fear of failure, is having that “vision” doesn’t guarantee success - nor is it necessary. In my professional life, I’m an artist (and librarian, but that’s less relevant. How I ended up coaching teenage boys is a boring story). I don’t have artistic talent/vision. I know I don’t, because I’ve seen what it looks like when someone does. I’ve practiced and studied and failed and sucked for a long time, and got to a point where I can do pretty serviceable art (even good, sometimes), I can get work and people take me seriously. But talent? Nah. The same is true for pretty much every aspect of life. “Vision” helps, and when you get to the intersection of “vision”, interest and hard work, that’s where genius lives. But I feel like that intersection is pretty rare, even in top echelons of every skill, because getting there is pretty much all about hard work and sustained interest. Having those two will take you a lot farther than vision.
zaphod777 1 points 21h ago
To an extent. I had a friend growing up that was half Native American Indian and the guy had amazing genetics. He put on muscle very easily and was naturally very coordinated.

Any sport he got into he was amazing at and could have been a professional at. Not to say it still doesn't take hard work and training but he was a natural.

Unfortunately he also had a very addictive personality and drugs and alcohol took him too early.
(additional comments not archived)
TheHYPO 1 points 13h ago
I practiced guitar somewhat obsessively when I was young, but my fingers are not overly precise (which is not limited to guitar - it's true of keyboard typing that I have tons of practice on, and other precision finger skills that some people excel at which I often have difficulty with). I also am just generally not great with languages (even when I was in a school for years where I spent half a day learning another language). It's just not something my brain picks up well. A lot of musical memory and transition is similar to language skill, and as such, I've found it very difficult to learn to read music, to memorize scales and the notes in key signatures, etc.

I managed to learn to be a pretty decent hobby guitar player, but I strongly believe that if my brain/body would even have ever been capable of shredding crazy super-fast solos with ease (and I'm not sure I ever could have), it would have taken me significantly more practice than some other people who have a more natural genetic talent for memorization, finger dexterity, languages, etc.

That isn't to say that those people wouldn't still have to practice a ton to excel at it, but with the same amount of practice, I believe others would reach a higher level than I would.

Similarly, I played ball a lot when I was young. I played catch with my dad and other kids all the time, I played T-ball, then softball, etc. But I was never great at accuracy. I could throw plenty far, and plenty hard, but just throwing a ball from shortstop to first base always had a chance at flying wide. It it's simply because I didn't practice enough. I definitely can tell that my body just isn't as physically coordinated as some other people.

To that end, I firmly believe that everything is combination - no one is really born able to just do these things without tons of practice, but at the same time, there are people who are naturally talented mentally and physically to be able to learn certain skills faster than others, and those who might never be able to reach excel no matter who much practice they put in, but can usually still become really good with a lot of practice. It's really about the level of maximum potential and the amount of effort required to reach it. Not everyone has the same curve.
(additional comments not archived)
(additional comments not archived)
(additional comments not archived)
catdoctor 23 points 1d ago
You used Carole King as an example when Bob Dylan exists? (JK)

You did not say anything about a musical "ear." Being able to hear and properly reproduce pitches appears to be an innate ability, but I have no idea how it works.
DefinitelyNotA-Robot 1 points 22h ago
Not innate! It's a skill that seems to develop before the age of around 2. We can see this demonstrated by the fact that there is a much larger instance of "perfect pitch" in countries where the language is pitch-dependent (like Chinese). Of course, genetics plays a role, like it does in everything, but pitch abilities can absolutely be developed, especially during that 0-2 window.
(additional comments not archived)
Big-Dunkey 1 points 18h ago
There are years worth of college classes on learning that ability. The only thing that’s innate is perfect pitch, which is not a thing you need to be a singer
(additional comments not archived)
rayjaymor85 9 points 1d ago
>. There are many singers (popular) who have little training and perhaps even "bad" voices but use their ability and develop their own style and preference and make it musical.


Billy Corgan would be a prime example here.
Someone made the claim to be that he has a HORRIBLE voice and I honestly never realised until I sat down and listened properly.
(additional comments not archived)
jazzy-jackal 183 points 1d ago
Swift is another example of that. She is an incredible song writer, a phenomenal performer, and a pop culture savant. However, her technical abilities are limited. Her voice has vastly improved throughout her career due to vocal training, but for someone who is perhaps the biggest popstar of this century, her actual singing abilities are lacklustre. And I say all this as someone who loves Taylor
ThatsWhatSheaSaid 53 points 1d ago
See also: Madonna, Britney Spears
PlayMp1 93 points 1d ago
Amusingly, despite being so clearly inspired by Madonna and her limited range, Lady Gaga is a *tremendous* technical talent. She didn't really flex the raw vocal skill she has in the earlier songs she did when she was the biggest pop star in the world for a bit (y'know, the Just Dance, Poker Face, Bad Romance era, 2009-10ish) but it was always there.
Kotukunui 40 points 1d ago
…and then at the other end of the scale, LG stands up to the mic and hammers out heavy metal with Metallica.
She is one of the most talented and versatile vocalists of our times.
qualitypi 1 points 23h ago
The best part about Lady Gaga is she definitely can sing not only incredibly well, but in so many different styles and modes. I always contrast this in my mind to other pop stars, like Ariana Grande whose every songs is that same simpery sugary quality that makes her songs hard to tell apart unless the hook is really distinctive.
TheLargeIsTheMessage 1 points 20h ago
That was amazing I had no idea.
(additional comments not archived)
krisiteenie56 72 points 1d ago
Brittney Spears actually does have a good singing voice but she has been forced to sing in that "baby" voice her whole career. There are videos of her when she was young (like 8 or so) and she actually sings really well. Even her Mickey mouse club performances show this too.

Edit here is the video
KevSmileTime 28 points 1d ago
Ironically, I think Madonna sounded better when she was using her limited range. When she was cast in Evita she went through a ton of vocal training for the role. She decided to expand her range on her next album (Ray of Light) and sounded the best she ever had in the studio. However, when she was promoting the album she sounded like absolute shit. She just couldn’t hit the notes when singing live the way she could while recording the album. If you see recent clips of her on tour and when she isn’t lip syncing she’s way better at singing her older songs than her newer stuff. She can nail “Like a Virgin” but sounds like a cat dying trying to sing something like “Ray of Light.”
JangoF76 26 points 1d ago
I say this a lifelong Madonna fan: her live singing has always been bad. I think part of it is how active she is on stage - it's hard to sing well and do energetic and complex choreography at the same time, especially when your singing voice is only passable to start with. But with Madonna it never really mattered that much, she puts on such a show that it usually makes up for the poor vocal quality.
(additional comments not archived)
Toby_O_Notoby 30 points 1d ago
Having said that, she's a better musician/guitar player than people give her credit for. Check out her Tiny Desk performance of Death By A Thousand Cuts. She's managing to do a lot with just her voice and guitar and no band or computers to hide behind...
BeanerAstrovanTaco 11 points 1d ago
Thats a very good video. I had never been able to hear her singing voice that clearly before.

Thank you.

This is literally better than the official song.
SirJefferE 4 points 1d ago
Her whole Tiny Desk Concert is pretty good.
xelle24 1 points 19h ago
I'm not a particular Taylor Swift fan, but that entire Tiny Desk concert is excellent. I love the Tiny Desk series because it's done a great job of showing how actually talented and skilled quite a lot of artists actually are. It's the current version of MTV Unplugged but more unplugged and with a greater variety of artists and music.

While we're on the subject, I'm not much of a rap\hiphop fan either, but Macklemore's Tiny Desk concert is also fantastic.
(additional comments not archived)
Relative-Disaster-87 34 points 1d ago
I was going to comment the same thing, as a big Swift fan too. She doesn't have a fantastic voice but the rest of it makes up for it. Bob Dylan is another one.
sigdiff 1 points 20h ago
I don't know what it is about Dylan's voice, but it soothes me. It's not a "good" voice, but it makes me feel calm and relaxed and almost safe?
(additional comments not archived)
Substantial_Bad2843 10 points 1d ago
When it comes to these pop star entertainers, it’s more about personality than musical skill. Some of the best musicians I’ve heard are barely scraping by. Put on a sequin dress with laser lights and smoke machines and people will scream at your presence.
BeanerAstrovanTaco 2 points 1d ago
Thats true of all capitalism though.

What matters is how well you can appeal to the average Status Quo unrefined person.

Most artists have to UnSuperSaiyan themselves and perform at a lower level than they can. They can break new ground if they dont mind only being recognized 20 years after their death and can live in poverty for the remainder of their lives.

I think of Nietzsche and how terrible the end of his life was just because his philosophy never caught on during his lifetime.

The sad fact of life is that often there are no rewards for being innovative and trying to advance humanity.

Luckily for a select few, the exact same personality characterists that make them great artists are also the same characteristics desired in top level CEO's of major corporations. But there are not many jobs like that and access is blocked often depending on what social class you were born into.
PlayMp1 12 points 1d ago
> Most artists have to UnSuperSaiyan themselves and perform at a lower level than they can.

To be fair, performing at 150% is alienating to most people. This is technical wizardry. I'm a jazz drummer and this dude (Matt Garstka) is a **fucking genius.** He does shit that takes an absurd amount of practice to even get *okay* at, completely flawlessly. The lead guitarist there, Tosin Abasi, is also out of this world, but since I'm not a guitarist I can't speak to specific things other than "guitar man play fast with weird and complicated rhythms!"

I can also tell you this kind of music - djent-y instrumental prog metal - is super off putting to most people because it's not very catchy, it's very complicated, and if you're not a musician you probably don't really *get* what's interesting about it. It just comes off as a wall of impenetrable pretention and noise.

And that's okay! I think everyone should try learning an instrument because music is fun, but not everyone will vibe with everything. Any kind of popular music - and that's not just the genre we call "pop," that's everything from hip hop to rock to blues to country to funk - is inherently going to be basically some kind of dance music and dance music *cannot* be very complicated because random bars of 7/8 and spicy 9ths and crazy dissonance are liable to make people trip and fall.
9500741 5 points 1d ago
You are mistaken about the history of Nietzsche’s popularity. He was immensely popular and influential within his lifetime inside and outside of Germany.
Papa_Huggies 19 points 1d ago
Taylor can sing now. She always had the talent but never took vocal training seriously until 1984. In fact I feel like Lover and Midnights had some melodies that were written with the purpose of flexing her new-found control, which made the melodies less catchy as a result.

A great example is her re-release of Speak Now. You can not only hear the youth but also the straining in her old recordings, whereas her new releases have more control. I felt like the earlier releases captured her angst a little better.

Also the Dear John guitar solo changed from being played on single coils to P90s (I think) and it bugs me a little.
hoser82 34 points 1d ago
Wish I could have taken vocal training seriously 5 years before I was born like Taylor.
Adventurous-Eye-9200 10 points 1d ago
lol I was confused by that too but I think they meant the album 1989 that came out in 2014, though afaik I thought she only recently started training in these past couple months, or maybe years I’ve gotten pretty bad with keeping up with celebrities even though I’m a fan
(additional comments not archived)
theAmazingBagMan 2 points 1d ago
I have no idea on the singing but the guitar change has been annoying me for ages. Always wondered if there had been a technical change pickups, pedal etc. Feel a little vindicated seeing someone else mention it, thanks for that.
Papa_Huggies 5 points 1d ago
The acoustic went from a brighter tone, perhaps recorded with the mic at the 12th fret, to a stronger low-mids sound recorded at the soundhole. I liked that change.

Dear John was clearly meant to imitate/ parody Mayer's songwriting/ tone, sort of Taylor going "bitch I could do this too", so the old guitar was very distinctly a strat-style guitar on the 4th position. I think I could hear a tube-screamer set on low - gives a mid boost much like Mayer's tone for Continuum... had a lovely bite to it. The newly released one is far more quiet, first of all, and has a lot of treble rolled back. It's also definitely not the same pickups, and a different drive pedal.

Drums are tuned differently too but I liked that change the snare is niiice.
(additional comments not archived)
(additional comments not archived)
GreatGooglyMoogly077 8 points 1d ago
... cough ... Bob Dylan ... cough ...
Strong_Tangerine239 12 points 1d ago
Taylor Swift is a good example of this. When she first got her big break and went on her first big tour with her Fearless album, it was all based on her musicality. If you watch videos of her singing live on that tour, you can hear that she was not a very talented singer. But she was still selling out large venues and growing her fan base. She talks about how between that album and her next she did a lot of vocal training because of how many people said she couldn’t sing. Her album Speak Now is her but attempt to prove herself in both singing and musicality. She improved her vocals a lot and wrote that album completely alone without any co-writers. Fast forward and compare her most recent stuff live with her older songs live and you’ll hear how she’s grown in both areas!
HeavyLogix 1 points 22h ago
You sort of left out interesting sounding voices. Some okay singers sound really cool. Carole being one. That’s genetic.

I think about this because I get compliments on my voice quite a bit, non-singing. Nothing I worked on.
rich1051414 7 points 1d ago
Also, a lot of nurture vs nature going on. A mother/father who can sing well will always be singing to or around their children. Their children will imitate and do the same. They will then have a better singing voice by default.
Pepito_Pepito 5 points 1d ago
I think Mick Jagger is the ultimate example.
Grayfox4 9 points 1d ago
Alternative spelling: "Bob Dylan"
(additional comments not archived)
OGREtheTroll 1 points 23h ago
so, like Tom Waits?
carlosdesario 1 points 20h ago
Ever listen to Tom Waits’ early albums? His voice is much different on them. He has a much more melodic/smooth voice than the hot asphalt he spits later.
(additional comments not archived)
FarmboyJustice 1 points 12h ago
An interesting example is the case of Bonnie Tyler. She had a fairly successful career until
she damaged her vocal chords following surgery, giving her voice a strong raspy quality. Rather than hurting her career I believe her changes voice gave her singing an emotional intensity that appealed to a wide audience, leading to a huge increase in her popularity.

Whether her voice sounds "pleasant" is a matter of opinion, but there's no disputing that she has been extremely popular and successful with that voice.
Roy4Pris 3 points 1d ago
>perhaps even "bad" voices

One wag compared Ian Brown of the Stone Roses' vocal style to someone 'shouting into a rubbish tin'.
(additional comments not archived)
MisterGoo 325 points 1d ago
What is determined by your genetics is basically your timbre (the kind of voice you have) and your register. Now, your register is NOT your range. You can expand your range with training, even if there are limits to how high or low you can go (also determined by your genetics). Your register is « inside your full range, where do you actually sound best? ».
leadabae 100 points 1d ago
This is the best comment for acknowledging the timbre aspect. A lot of comments here are only focusing on technical musical ability and ignoring the fact that biologically some people are just working with worse instruments. A master violinist can try to play on a toy violin sold at a gift shop and it's still not going to sound great even if it's tuned.
matlynar 1 points 22h ago
Now I don't know much about violins but a great guitarist on the cheapest guitar sounds better than a bad guitarist on an expensive one. I've seen both extremes a few times in my life.

A good instrument helps, but technique and talent go a long way.
Secret_Bees 1 points 19h ago
Also, when it comes to timbre, you just need to find the type of song that best fits your voice. A grand piano sounds terrible in a honky tonk song.
(additional comments not archived)
stubept 1 points 21h ago
This is where I live. I have an amazing ear and brain for music. My friends have called me the “human jukebox” because I not only know thousands of songs, but all of their lyrics and vocal inflections. I can pull out harmonies and bass lines instantly and precisely “sing” guitar solos.

But I’m can’t sing worth a DAMN. My voice - particularly my timbre - is just hideous. It wasn’t always like this. I had the tenor voice of an angel in middle school… and then I hit puberty. And when I found myself going from first chair to Tenor III, I knew it was time to go play for the high school marching band.

And now I have 3 kids (11, 9, 7) who love music. They all play instruments, and are actually really adept at it. But then you put a mic in front of them and…. sigh…. If they’re going to form a band, they’re going to need an outside lead singer.

Sorry, kiddos. My fault.
MisterGoo 1 points 16h ago
If you wander on some singing threads, you’ll regularly see some people asking « my vocal coach says my voice is fine, but my timbre is terrible. Is my vocal coach lying to me just to get my money? ».
The truth is, vocal coaches know each voice is unique and can have a purpose. Some people are Jeff Buckley, some are Bob Dylan. And both are fine and have their place.
(additional comments not archived)
AyeBraine 20 points 1d ago
Concise and to the point! Nearly any voice can be trained, barring some weird conditions. Russian composer Glinka was a renowned tenor in his day, not in the big music halls, but among peers, respected for his precise control and musicality. He had a very weak voice, but mastered it completely.
Time_to_go_viking 5 points 1d ago
Ability to match pitch is also *partly* (but only partly) determined by genetics.
LuluLaRue1 6 points 1d ago
I would like someone like you to evaluate my voice and my issues. I only sing in the shower and car. I get shot a look anywhere else. So I guess I'm off tune?
pala_ 1 points 23h ago
Grab a pitch analysis app. Just sing at your phone and see how good you can hit specific intervals.
seamonkeyring 1 points 23h ago
Yes. I also think this is why bands like The Corrs work, because of their similar timbre.
pala_ 1 points 23h ago
They’re certainly genetically blessed.
mrshakeshaft 1 points 2h ago
It’s probably more likely that they grew up playing music together as a family so know each other musically inside out. You see this a lot in bluegrass and other folk traditions where kids start out young playing music together and through a combination of sheer hours of practice and development in a group environment, they turn into the most incredible musicians
pala_ 1 points 1h ago
Yeah don’t overthink it. I’m alluding to the fact that they’re all hot.
(additional comments not archived)
(additional comments not archived)
Get_your_grape_juice 242 points 1d ago
I’m a classical singer.

I fully believe that *most* people have the physical ability to sing, and sing *well*. Barring a significant medical/developmental condition, the base physiological tools are essentially the same from one person to the next.

However, singing isn’t just talking (or yelling) and holding your vowels. There are concepts which vary in their abstractness, and can be difficult for beginners to understand, because frankly they can be difficult to explain.

You need to know roughly what your range is. That’s not *too* difficult. But then you need to understand where in your face different frequencies resonate, so you can “place” your voice in those areas when you sing the appropriate notes. That requires a certain type of proprioception that is really only useful for singing, and thus isn’t developed by non-singers.

Learning to sing is a process of learning about one’s body, frankly. That is your instrument, and you need to develop a certain hyperawareness of everything — posture, tension/relaxation, breathing, vowels and consonants, the aforementioned vocal “placement” and resonance, etc.

And learning all of this stuff feels weird. There’s a lot of trial and error, and so many exercises which seem odd at first, and it just *feels weird*.

Because of how abstract the concepts can be, and how *super weird* it can feel to practice them, it’s important that you can find a voice teacher you can trust, which I think is the single biggest problem. If you want to sing *well*, you’re going to have to let someone listen to you, and critique you. Your instrument is literally *your body* — using it to perform for others is absolutely a personal, *vulnerable* position to be in. So I think it’s absolutely *critical* that the student is able to trust his/her teacher to be honest, but not *cruel*.

I think that if you can find a teacher who you feel comfortable with, you can learn to sing. If you can trust that all the weird, vulnerable parts of the process are normal, that gives you some space and confidence to experiment, and eventually develop a real singing voice.

Also. I’m tired right now, so this may have been a bit rambling. But there you have it.
JustVan 1 points 23h ago
As someone who has tried to learn to sing well and still isn't very good, you're also missing and extremely important aspect. You can practice making all the correct sounds and placements that you want, but that's not going to suddenly make you able to hear pitch or stay on tune. I am almost always flat. I cannot hear it. I cannot tell when someone else is singing out of tune unless it's totally dissonant. I'm sure teaching that is possible with a lot of training (probably from a young age), and there are tricks that work for me to keep me on key (reading sheet music as I sing, having a director who is staring right at me and raising/lowering his/her hand or baton as they hear me wavering), etc. but it's not innate. I struggle with it constantly. I'm so unable to hear myself going off key that I've basically given up. I can mostly learn one song and remember "I always go flat here" and so focus to fix it, but give me another song and it's flat all over again.

I have to believe that hearing pitch/being able to naturally stay on key is something innate for people. (That and all the little vocal trills and flourishes talented singers just naturally do. I can't even replicate those, and other people I know who have never studied singing naturally can.)
fucktheredditappBD 1 points 20h ago
Pitch perception is a learned skill. Not saying there isn't innate talent at all, but as someone who has played music since childhood, things I used to think sounded fine now sound horrendously out of tune to me.
Ihazthecookies 1 points 20h ago
I don't know if I'd agree that it's innate, but that doesn't help you unless I offer suggestions.

1. Sing while playing an acoustic guitar. This is so that you can hear your instrument clearly and hear the "beating" that happens when two pitches are close but not fully in tune. I think if you anticipate the note you're about to attempt, and then grade that against the instrument, you'll start to develop a better feel for it.

2. Sing to yourself. To develop flourishes you kinda just want to be playful with your voice and experiment, without caring if it sounds good. You really just want to develop dexterity and then clamp down on it when it's time to perform.

3. Try to learn a really cool run you like at low tempo and practice that like its own piece. Build it up to speed over a few days.

My experience has been that note tuning is just as ear-trainy as picking out chords and intervals. That said, I'm not professionally trained as a vocalist so disregard this if you want. Maybe someone with more expertise can give a deeper answer.
iworkwithbirds 1 points 16h ago
There's hope for you still! I learned piano very young, and then flute in 5th grade. I loved playing flute and my technique (finger stuff) was pretty good, but my intonation was just terrible. I couldn't tell if I was flat was sharp, and could barely hear when things were out of tune tune--I spent most of band in high school just randomly guessing whether I was flat or sharp and would adjust both ways to see if it got worse or better (which I could hardly tell lol). I took a break in college and got back to it in my mid to late 20s, and now my intonation is much, much, much, much better!

I think what really helped for me was just listening to lots and lots and lots and lots \*professional\* classical music. Like, 8+ hours a day, 5-7 days a week. I did that for the few years after graduating college, and it definitely helped me hear and understand what I'm supposed to sound like.

I would also sing along to pop music (both upbeat and ballads), with and without the music actually playing. And I would evaluate, like, it became strikingly obvious to me when I would sing without the music that I sounded nothing like it, and then I'd have to try and experiment to make it sound similar.

Generally, I think training your ear is something that can only be accomplished by listening. Find ways to "live" in music and surround yourself with it. Music while you're at work (with headphones on), music while you cook, etc.
wesgtp 1 points 22h ago
I have extremely limited knowledge on singing, the most I ever did was a full-stage play in like 4th grade (I sang and danced in like 2 scenes with other paperboys my age). My parents and music teachers always told me I could hold a note singing. That just came naturally, I can apparently hit and hold most notes within a narrow range. And I could tell when I was going off key or flat as well. I think the singer's own hearing is a big component when asking whether anyone can learn to sing or not. I honestly would guess no, not everyone can mostly because they can't even hear for themselves when they are singing well or not.

Fig 1: American Idol tryouts that think they sound incredible. And I'm sure many of them are also extremely gullible. But tone deafness is real and I don't think there's a way to "cure" it.
(additional comments not archived)
out_liars 17 points 1d ago
I'm a singer, too, and this is pretty much how I'd answer the question. Great response!

Taking intonation out of the equation, it comes down to breathing, support, and placement in my mind. These are elements the average person can learn to utilize successfully with training.
2180161 3 points 1d ago
It also depends on the type of voice too, for examples almost all tenors cover the voice, but a bass or baritone doesn't necessarily need to.

It's also important to let the voice be free and have natural vibrato, which happens with proper breath support, etc.
(additional comments not archived)
(additional comments not archived)
snowywind 39 points 1d ago
Your voice is an instrument. You may be born with a $15 million Stradivarius or a $45 WalMart store brand. However, a professional with the cheap instrument that cares for it, keeps it in tune and learns every quirk of its sound will play better than a novice wielding the expensive instrument that only comes out when a birthday cake is involved.

Excepting injury or deformity, the musicality of a voice comes mainly from the skill and control behind it. It is hard to overstate the effect of decades spent mastering a craft.
Double_Joseph 1 points 19h ago
I used to work on a cruise ship and worked with a ton of Filipinos. Now English is not their first language and they have a thick strong accents. When it came to karaoke nights they could sing better in English then anyone I know, including myself lol.
R0ckhands 19 points 1d ago
Vocal teacher here. Singing is like other stuff: you can get better but your limits are your limits. Your physiognomy and 'ear' is also much more of a factor than if you are a guitarist or pianist etc. It's difficult to sing in tune if you're one of the unlucky minority to be tone deaf.

I've had incredibly diligent students who worked their ass off for 3 years only to be still not as good as their classmate who rarely showed up to college and didn't practice.

TL;DR: Yes, you can improve - but whether you'll sound 'pleasant and professional' depends on how you define those terms.
Maxxbrand 68 points 1d ago
David Byrne said, "The better a singer's voice, the harder it is to believe what they're saying."
hobbitfeet 26 points 1d ago
No wonder my husband is so trustworthy.
xredbaron62x 8 points 1d ago
Absolutely LOVE David Byrne.
(additional comments not archived)
shoegazedivision 47 points 1d ago
Agree with much of what’s been said here. As someone who doesn’t like the current sort of American idol version of “good” singing that everyone seems to have in their minds, this has been an encouraging thread to read.

Look, music is not athletics. Music is successful when it catches your attention, moves you, makes you feel something, connects with you somehow. That’s one person communicating to another, and that connection people make to the music of another goes way outside of technical best practices quite often. So if you’ve got something to say that resonates with a group of people, and if you can make it interesting, moving, compelling in some way, you’re good.

There’s a lot of people with extremely “good” voices that you’ve never heard of, and many people that would totally fail in singing shows that pack stadiums. Just find what’s interesting about your voice and make it move people!
debacchatio 25 points 1d ago
Just came here to agree as a side note with how much I cannot stand “belt” - ie - that American Idol/the Voice/Glee aesthetic of trying to push out notes as forcefully with as much volume as possible (think of the end of “defying gravity”, classical example of belt). It’s probably my *least* favorite thing about contemporary performance.

Don’t get me wrong a few folks do it really, really well (Barbara Streisand for example, Whitney Houston). They can maintain an impeccable breath control that stays on harmony and seems effortless, but the vast majority of singers are just yelling the note at this point…

It’s just not to my liking!
_thro_awa_ 11 points 1d ago
> Look, music is not athletics

A musical performance (or any performance, really) is comparable in some ways to an athletic performance.

Watch a musical performer at the top of their craft, in any genre - it's obviously not identical to the physical demands of sports but it definitely requires physical and mental stamina, focus, coordination, etc (teamwork, for an ensemble) - i.e. all the attributes that are required in different variations for 'sporty' athletics as well.

And this 'athleticism' of the musical performance is strongly correlated with its impact on the audience.
RickJLeanPaw 1 points 21h ago
“The athletes of small muscle movements” (or similar) is how I’ve heard musicians described.
(additional comments not archived)
(additional comments not archived)
i_have_slimy_hands 12 points 1d ago
As a vocalist, it's important to remember that your voice is yours and your range may be unique to you. This doesn't mean you're incapable of singing, but it does mean that you need to find your own singing voice as it may be wildly different to what you hear commonly on the radio.

Think Motorhead. Lemmy has a very unique voice that works flawlessly in his style of music. If he tried to sing along to a pop song, people would probably have told him to hang up his dreams of being a vocalist.


The problem comes when we try to copy how others may sound, expecting to be able to learn how to mimic our favourite singers. Work with what you have and write your music according to what sounds good with your own voice
Billy_Does_Things 1 points 22h ago
Piggybacking on that, finding artists who have a similar timbre to you *can* be a huge help when trying to learn, even if it's not your favorite music.

I know it made a huge difference for me when I found a few, I was way less self conscious about singing along for practice
(additional comments not archived)
Itsallconnectedbrah 160 points 1d ago
Hell yes, look at Björk or Billy Corgan or Johnny Rotten. If any of them had tried out for the opera or even a choir they'd have been btfo'd, but they found ways to make their voices work for them.

Never say die, sing your fucking heart out.
Reddit_Foxx 49 points 1d ago
I remember reading about a producer who was in the studio recording Billie Holiday. He thought her singing was the worst thing he had ever heard and was trying to figure out what to say and what to do. And then he looked up at her at the end of the performance and saw the tears in her eyes. It was then that he realized that it was the soul and emotion that she put into her singing that made it good, not necessarily her voice.
TheVicSageQuestion 9 points 1d ago
This is how I felt when I finally figured out Amy Winehouse.
meester_pink 24 points 1d ago
She had a really good voice though?
grachi 1 points 21h ago
Yea…. That would be subjective
(additional comments not archived)
polkemans 72 points 1d ago
In their defense, opera isn't something you have or don't. It's a style of singing with very different technique involved. Had Billy Corgan or Bjork actually learned and spent those skill points differently I don't see any reason why they couldn't perform opera in a not terrible way.
Gaardc 10 points 1d ago
This is something I somehow knew but not something it has ever occurred to me to ask: in what ways are opera and regular singing different? (I mean in terms of technique(?) I guess, they obviously sound different).
Pickledicklepoo 19 points 1d ago
Opera works a lot more with the diaphragm and training the ability to project and control the voice like an instrument. It’s kind of like how speaking in a theatre performance would be different from having a conversation with someone
Gaardc 1 points 21h ago
That analogy makes great sense, thank you.
polkemans 14 points 1d ago
So a lot of vocal technique comes down to where you let the sound resonate in your vocal tract. A lot of pop and rock music leans into resonating more in your nasal cavity. Maybe you've heard the term "mask" used in regards to singing. That's usually what it refers to. Opera is a much more forward placement, very tall open mouth posture, with much more pressure from your diaphragm to get the projection. Ultimately singing is just muscle coordination combined with your vocal cords and different styles need different types of coordination of those muscles. Next time you sing something, imagine the sound as a ball in your throat/mouth/nose. See if you can "move" it around, up/down, forward/back and notice the difference in sounds and the way it feels.
(additional comments not archived)
Amyndris 10 points 1d ago
Someone explained to me that it comes down to the history. Opera was sung prior to the invention of the microphone so it's all about projecting and belting out the song to fill a theatre and to project over the orchestra whereas a musical is a more modern invention and could take advantage of the microphone. This is why Opera singers use a lot of "chest" when singing to project their voice.

The example they used was Michael Crawford, the original Phantom in Phantom of the Opera could not succeed in an pre-microphone environment because he has a small voice.
grachi 1 points 21h ago
I think you mean upper stomach/diaphragm instead of chest, but ya the rest would make sense
(additional comments not archived)
Totorodeo 18 points 1d ago
I love corgan’s rachet-ass voice. And I love the force of will it takes to forge ahead with a more distinctive voice. Jagger has a weird voice and Madonna’s early work has little vocal skill.

A techinally perfect voice is not interesting to me. I never understood all the singing competition shows.
im_the_real_dad 12 points 1d ago
>they'd have been btfo'd

What is BTFO?
Nippahh 18 points 1d ago
Blown the fuck out
Kered13 4 points 1d ago
I'm pretty sure this is the correct answer.
(additional comments not archived)
Foxxpyre 12 points 1d ago
I'm not who you replied to, and I'm guessing here, but I think "boo'd the fuck off(the stage)?
Geppetto_Cheesecake 16 points 1d ago
Big titted fat ogre. Geeze guys. Seriously.
SandysBurner 8 points 1d ago
"Booted the fuck out," maybe?
Wenchpie 4 points 1d ago
Bitch (get) the fuck out? 🤣
dontassume-presume 5 points 1d ago
Bent the fuck over?
Itsallconnectedbrah 2 points 1d ago
Back-the-fuck-off'd, but the guesses are fun
(additional comments not archived)
Magusreaver 5 points 1d ago
Nick Cave, Connor Oberst, and Tom Waits have all entered the chat.
(additional comments not archived)
well_that_went_wrong 18 points 1d ago
There is an old youtube video, that I can't find anymore (might have been in german).
A woman who couldn't sing one clear note, a really bad singer, wanted to find out, if she can learn to sing at least half way decent with real training.

The singing coach didn't want to train her at the beginning and said, that she is just one of those people who genetically can't sing.

She still agreed to give it a try. It took a year if I remember correctly, but she sounded really good after that.
The trainer was also really surprised.
6amhotdog 9 points 1d ago
I’m also interested in this question but for the “ear for music” instead. What determines whether or not someone can know that they’re flat or sharp, or to know that someone else is? Some people can’t hit an actual note if their life depended on it, others can just “hear” that they’re at the right note regardless of singing ability.
(additional comments not archived)
Whatmeworry4 41 points 1d ago
Most people can’t sing well not from lack of vocal training, but from problems listening. What we hear comes from two sources; the sound that comes out and hits our outer ears, and from vibrations that go from our voice box through our skull to the inner ear.

Unfortunately, the sound that vibrates through our skull is quite distorted, and so we don’t hear ourselves accurately. Now if you are one of the lucky people who can accurately hear themselves then you have the potential to be a “good” singer which training can improve.

I believe the basis of this is in our biology, but it may be more in our development than in our genes, but it’s likely a combination of both.
Ziztur 10 points 1d ago
So I’m deaf. I have a hearing aid on one side and a cochlear implant on the other side. I can hear myself, and when listening to recordings of myself, it sounds the same.

I’m not sure if this is an advantage or a disadvantage but I really want to make a YouTube channel where I take voice and singing lessons to find out.
Pickledicklepoo 14 points 1d ago
It has far less to do with biology but you’re kind of on the right track. In reality I believe it has a lot more to do with essentially what you were exposed to during critical development periods.

For example it is known that in tonal languages there are certain tones that basically can only be distinguished by native speakers or more specifically by someone who was exposed to the tonal language during the critical language development window as an infant/young child. Likewise a child who is never really exposed to music or is exposed very little during the development window during which the neural foundations are being laid for acquisition of this language is going to have a much harder time picking it up later in life than someone who was exposed to more and has more pathways than they do to start with.

It has been shown that being musical with your child from day one has similar benefits to exposing them to multiple languages because music is fundamentally its own language. When someone has a harder time learning to sing well it’s not because they cannot hear themselves as well it is because they lack the brain context to interpret that sound as bad (sometimes) and modify their vocal production in a way that would improve it. But this can be taught. It just is going to be harder for someone without the advantage of early exposure than for someone with it.
anoidciv 3 points 1d ago
Does "being musical" with your child involve singing to/with them or singing to/with them _well_? Like, if you're a bad singer is your child destined to be bad too? Or does singing badly help develop their musical ability regardless?
DefinitelyNotA-Robot 1 points 22h ago
Singing badly is okay! What's really important is the back and forth, or what we call musical babble. If your child makes noises (like "ahhh ah"!), try to mimic them right back to them! That tells babies that music is communication and helps them gain a sense of pitch. You can also take your kid to a baby music class if you want to get more ideas, we do tons of games and everything we do involves teaching the parents!
anoidciv 1 points 18h ago
This is wonderful to hear! I play the drums but can't sing at all and my partner is a multi-instrumentalist (not a singer but can sing well) from a very musical family. It would be lovely to impart that because musicality is such a beautiful thing. Glad to know I can be of some help even with my lackluster abilities.
(additional comments not archived)
CypherFirelair 3 points 1d ago
I was about to ask "how comes I find my singing okay but everyone think it's bad" 😂 thank you for your answer!
GsTSaien 13 points 1d ago
I disagree, most people who say they can't sing can follow pitch but just don't know how to use their full voice.

People who straight up sing out of pitch do have issues with their hearing, but that is a minority.
Troldkvinde 10 points 1d ago
I have issues with singing off pitch and have struggled with it despite taking vocal lessons for 3 years or so... That being said, I can hear it that I'm off pitch, I just can't fix it.
(additional comments not archived)
ol-gormsby 2 points 1d ago
>People who straight up sing out of pitch

Some do it deliberately.

Such as Courtney Barnett - not many vocalists have me jumping up to change the channel, but she's one of them.

John Hartford is another.
thwerpnerd 2 points 1d ago
In order for me to sing in tune I'd have to deliberately sing out of tune because what I hear in my head is way off from how my voice actually sounds. It's incredibly frustrating and makes me think I could never really be good at singing. If I'm live monitoring (singing into mic with headphones playing back my voice) then I can usually adjust and sing in tune, but without that it's just impossible to deliberately sing out of tune (how I hear it).
(additional comments not archived)
(additional comments not archived)
rubenespanyol 69 points 1d ago
I think it works the same way as an athlete's case. Genetics + training = olympic champ. Your genes will determine the ceiling of the potential of your ability.

Short answer, yes. But with the same amount of training, the genetically superior will perform better.

I don't think it's an Eli5 question though.
GsTSaien 34 points 1d ago
Actually no. It is almost all training when it comes to singing.

Unlike athletes, variation in the qualities of your voice aren't advantages, only variety. Unless you have a specific issue with your vocal chords or your hearing, you are playing on an almost completely even field with everyone else.

Variations will be stuff like your range, resonance, etc. But they aren't usually advantages or disadvantages becsuse you adapt music to fit your voice as you develop it.

There are some outliers, like male singers with particularly high pitch, but again, as long as you adapt your music and know how to train your voice, competition is decently fair.

There isn't really a scenario in which you can't keep up with the competition because you weren't born as gifted unless you have a specific problem holding you back. (Like trouble with pitch perception, or damage to your respiratory system)
Digitijs 15 points 1d ago
I'd say that this entirely depends on what we call "good" singing, what style we are talking about. As a classical singer and teacher, I can tell that genetics play a massive role in this field. The sportist example fits very well here.

There are certain limits that you can't overcome with training. You got the voice you have and from there on you can just expand what you already have which for most part is control and improve your breath, find the resonance that sounds best for your voice and learn how to expand your vocal range through technique. Expanding your range still has limitations determined by genetics, and usually it works only to expand in the high notes. Your low notes are pretty much set once your vocal chords have grown fully, unless you go into techniques like growling which ofc will produce completely different sound from your regular singing voice.

Things like power, timbre and range are mostly determined by your genetics. You can however try to find your own style in singing.

It's like if you got a piece of dough and have to bake something out of it but everyone gets a different size and flavour. You might still bake a nice cupcake with a smaller piece but it won't make for a wedding cake, if that's what you are aiming for.
GetBAK1 23 points 1d ago
I agree with you part of the way. There is a genetic aspect of vocal tone you could not teach someone to sound like Chris Cornell for example. He has a blistering high range, but even at lower notes there is a quality to his voice then I don’t think could be trained.
Classical music is very different in this respect. It is not about personal creativity or style, it’s about reproducing what’s written. In that respect you can train someone to a large degree. Pop and rock music is much more about inflection than actual note passages.
UpsetHyena964 5 points 1d ago
I always liked the saying that "hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard"
what_is_this_place 4 points 1d ago
The athlete analogy is a good one. Vocal chords are a muscle and can be trained/strengthened just like anything else. Proper technique and training can go a long ways.
LiminalWanderings 6 points 1d ago
You can train and practice to get pretty good ..I went from singing to badly that I wasn't allowed to sing in a children's community musical theater production in which everyone was technically allowed to participate and sing in ....to decades later, as an adult, taking lessons and practice to the point where people rarely mind hearing me sing and often enjoy it....and I haven't practiced with any regularity.

For talent: Most research says that a great portion of talent is interest combined with a massive amount of practice...not something innate..

Certainly, there are physical limitations to singing, like anything involving your body, but the talent part is substantially a myth.
NewGirl50 8 points 1d ago
My experience is limited, but I think genetics is the biggest factor and training + desire are secondary. As a child I was chosen to sing in a very elite choir in my home state. The music teacher at the large elementary school picked one boy and one girl. (Many,many years ago.) The young man and I were also in madrigals in HS. He went on to a professional music career. (Talent, training, desire). I didn’t sing after HS. I didn’t keep using those muscles. I don’t sing much except now except for Christmas carols or humming with the radio. Another interesting thing about natural talent. My kid’s orthodontist (they are pretty close in age; the youngest was just in for a consult). He asked two of the three if they were good singers. They both have absolutely gorgeous voices. He didn’t ask the third. I talked with him privately after an appointment about why he asked that question. He said he could tell by the shape of their palettes. He was in an a cappella barbershop group that performed a lot in our area. He would often sing softly as he tinkered with braces and wires during appointments and it was lovely. Different vocal chords, mouth structure, I don’t have an answer, but my personal experience is you’re born with a talent for singing. My child without the natural talent wanted to sing so badly they took loads of lessons. They are an asset to a choir, but not soloists like the other two. The two took lessons also, but not regularly.
Additionally, all three started violin at a young age. The two singers could tune their violins by ear by the second year. The third needed a prompt from a piano for all four strings until they quit and started piano. The other two also added piano (and guitar). They don’t sight read as well as their sibling but they improvise and sound better. The other is an excellent accompanist but cannot deviate from the written music. Sadly, you can’t carry a piano to campfires. The other two (genetically gifted singers) enjoy entertaining friends with their guitars and singing or fiddling while camping. 💁🏽‍♀️
Troldkvinde 9 points 1d ago
Reading this comment made me sad
Mr_Gaslight 4 points 1d ago
Everyone can sing with enthusiasm.

That being said, get a singing coach. I forget where I read it but that egomaniac Rex Harrison was asked to play Professor Higgins in the stage musical My Fair Lady. He was mystified because he did not know how to sing, let alone sing professionally.

The producers got him some singing coaches and taught him how to 'speak-sing on pitch' as I believe he called it. To his amazement, the coaches figured out what he could do with what I seem to recall he said was his 'three-note range' and made it work.

When it came time to shooting the film, the director wanted Harrison's singing to improve but the actor simply didn't have it in him or was too lazy or stuck in his ways. The director relented and the 'spoken song' method Harrison had been using stuck with the film.

To come to the point, I'm sure there's a way a good coach could nudge you off the baseline from untrained to listenable if you put in the work.

Christ, Jimmy Durante had a singing career after all.
iWasDorianGray 1 points 22h ago
I wonder why all those super famous actors and singers of Hollywood that CLAIM TO BE REDDITORS never answer in a thread like this
aabbccbb 1 points 21h ago
They probably DO answer on anonymous accounts, but just get ignored because what they type doesn't fit with our preconceived notions.

It's like they say: reddit knows a lot about everything...except things that you know a lot about.

Seriously. Go to any thread on a main sub on a topic that you know a lot about. Most of the time, I'm like "What the fuck are they talking about? That's completely wrong."
Spring_Assembly 3 points 1d ago
Coming at this from the other way around, if you like singing, you can definitely train to not suck or even sound quite pleasant, even if you don’t have top-talent genetics. You won’t be world class but who cares.
Vulpes_macrotis 4 points 1d ago
Of course how You sound depends on the genetics. You can't go beyond what You are physically capable of. If You are bass, then You are not tenor etc. There are people who can go to different scales, but it's hard.

Not saying that practice isn't needed, but if You don't have predispositions, You can only dream. It's like being ugly and trying to be a model. You won't. You need the good look in the first place. Good skin etc. And no cosmetics could cover everything up.

​

So basically... genetics is a base. But training is important, otherwise You won't be able to use Your genetics to full extent. Singing is not about voice only. It's about manipulating that voice. About breathing, rhythm and stuff. These things are not given by genetics, but You need to learn them (or have talent for them).
Barner_Burner 2 points 1d ago
Think about this analogy with literally any sport or skill requiring game. Some people will always be “naturals” in the sense that they don’t have to work to be good at something, they just naturally are, and when they practice/train it, they become REALLY good.

People who aren’t naturals however but still work hard at it can still become better than the average person and can even become better than naturally gifted people if the gifted person doesn’t work on improving.

So yes I’d say if you have a bad singing voice, you can turn it into a good singing voice, but you’ll never be Beyonce or Ed Sheeran.
iammavisdavis 2 points 1d ago
Good singers can be trained or have natural talent. Great singers have natural talent AND training.

My daughter has natural talent. From the moment she started singing she has sung from her head/nose instead of throat, sings on key, has natural rhythm, etc.. She is 23 and has been with instructors/coaches since she was 11 and has a phenomenal singing voice. She was always good, but it took working with people on breathing/breath control, placement of different notes/ranges, styles to move past merely "good".

I, on the other hand, do not have natural singing ability. I took lessons from my daughter's then instructor for a year with the aim of being able to sing happy birthday at parties without embarrassing myself lol (and a side gig of accompanying my daughter to auditions). It worked. Am I a great singer? Absolutely not. Am I adequate (and could I have become "good" with more than a year)? Yes. Yes I am.

So yes. Someone with no "natural talent" can absolutely sound pleasant/good (professional depends on what you mean - professional, like Broadway? Likely no. Professional like wedding cover band? Probably).
nipsen 2 points 1d ago
Determined, yes, but in what sense?

I know a successful opera-singer who, until he decided to train properly, with instruction from extremely good and patient parents, had about the vocal range of a strip of baking paper, and the musicality of one of those horrible small music-boxes you wind up.

If you knew what he sounded like until midway in his 30s, you would - correctly - think that although genetics can play a role, that matters absolutely nothing if you don't work hard, and work right, and train.

People should rather argue like this: if you have a minuscule amount of musical talent, and you have the wish to improve - you're doing yourself a huge disservice if you ruin it by not training and practicising to make the most of it over time.
4AcidRayne 1 points 22h ago
Not really. Anyone can learn to sing beautifully. But, there are a few "catches".

It's not cheap. Vocal lessons with a good teacher who actually knows what they're doing can cost tens of thousands of dollars (over several years) to take someone from "Well, that's kinda singing, but I don't like it" to "Wow, I'd like to pre-order every album they'll ever record."

It's not easy. To be a good singer, you need good ear training. Knowing when a note is a few hertz off of perfect is the only way you'll ever really be competent to sing. This is somewhat cheaper, but not easy or fun to slog through. Ear training is like drawing; anyone can learn to do it well...99% of people will get frustrated and quit long before they even get close to doing it well.

The reason you see a lot of nepo babies in music is simple; they grew up rich and surrounded by music from day one. They grew up in an environment where basically being a bad singer would be harder than being a good one. Little kid belts out a catchy song and daddy's $2,000/hour vocal coach's instincts take over and the kid gets a three minute unsolicited lesson to improve.

I'm sure there are some subtle genetic influences in play that could help somebody sing better, but end of day it's a lot like everything else; throw enough money and effort at it, it's doable. Nepo babies have a head start; they're not "genetically gifted", they're mostly the product of having had opportunities and exposure that does not exist for everyone else.
Stormry 1 points 21h ago
As with many things, genetics give you a range you can fall in, effort determines where on that range you fall.
Spinningwoman 1 points 20h ago
I went on a singing course called ‘Singing for people who think they can’t sing’ because I had a job that required me to sing in public and I was nervous about my ability. The person leading the course said that teaching groups of about 15 people at a time, she would come across a person who genuinely couldn’t sing and couldn’t easily learn maybe once in every five classes or so. There was one guy in our group whom she said had the musical equivalent of dyslexia (she gave it a name which I can’t remember) and advised that unless he was very invested in improving he was probably better off accepting that it wasn’t his thing. Most people improved massively just being shown how to breathe correctly and improving in confidence through instruction.
jseego 1 points 19h ago
Is running fast determined by genetics?

Of course it is.

Is it something that almost anyone can improve with great training and effort?

Also yes.

It's the same with most things.
marklein 1 points 19h ago
Singing is a physical activity, just like playing a sport. Assuming that you're not disabled then anybody can play basketball. Anybody can get better at basketball by practicing. Anybody can get even better yet with training from a coach. Most people will never be anywhere close to as good as Michael Jordan no matter how much they train, but if you're dedicated then you definitely can get pretty good.

All of that is also true for singing.
WanderingSchola 1 points 12h ago
Everyone is born with a different instrument, so that much won't change. But everyone can learn to play their instrument better through practice. Also, whether a given voice is "good" has a lot to do with whether it is being used in a pitch range that makes the most of the way it sounds. Tubas are not trumpets, violins are not violas, oboes are not clarinets.
Ravus_Sapiens 1 points 12h ago
Yes and no. It of course depends on what you mean by "good."

But very simplified, genetics determine the upper limits of what you can do. Women, for instance, are predisposed to having higher voices. That's not to say that there aren't men with high voices, but they are not on the middle of the Bell curve.

Training, on the other hand, determine where you land within that limit set by your genetics. A person could have excellent genes, but no training resulting in a terrible singing voice, or conversely might have terrible genetics but can with extensive training sound above average (whatever that means; we still haven't defined what "good" means in this context).

It's the same in any field really: a lot of professional athletes, particularly those in the top of their field, have both genes and training on their side. If they lack the genetics, they might not get to be the best in the world, but if they lack the training, their talent will probably never be discovered.

Unfortunately, genetics is complicated, so you cannot simply screen your genome to determine "this is what I would be good at" since gene expression (basically, which genes are "turned on/off") can change during your life and depends on all sorts of environmental factors. It's a whole field of science called epigenetics, but that's too complicated for me to explain in a ELI5.
HeavyDropFTW 2 points 1d ago
The body parts that contribute most to vocal timbre are the larynx, neck, throat, and facial structures. All of those are determined by genetics. But those things don't make a bad/good "singing voice" exactly.

Example - Elvis Presley had the genetic body parts that equipped him with a **basic** singing voice. But he was mostly successful because of his charisma and looks - which is more socially learned than anything else. He was not an incredible singer.

Take Jessica Simpson as another example. She was born with average singing parts. But above average looks (subjectively of course). But she likely didn't train for much of her life like really great singers do. She got the record deal mostly because of her status/looks. Not her capability to sing.

Nearly anyone can develop a "good singing voice" as long as their genetics have allowed them average body parts to form sound. The rest is gained through training.

And if you want to short-cut training, you can depend on showmanship and autotune.
Gaardc 3 points 1d ago
I’m not sure what you mean JS didn’t train much of her life “like really great singers do”. She had performed on church choirs all her childhood (which is far more than a lot of people get) IIRC it was her mom trained her. And she was very nearly a Disney kid. Literally auditioned with the likes of Britney Spears and really lost her step after young Christina Aguilera blew everyone out of the water. I believe it was a young Ryan Gosling that made fun of her performance bc she got so freaked out after Aguilera’s performance that she bombed. She came late to the popularity contest but I wouldn’t say she had a late start practice-wise (although professional training did, perhaps).

If you ask me, though, the only uniquely talented voice from those I mentioned would be Christina (Britney was okay, popular, good looks and a great performer at her peak to hear people tell it. I always thought she had great energy but her voice was just alright). That said, Simpson, IIRC from her book never really wanted to be a singer or a “somebody”, she was just a shy kid pushed out her comfort zone into performing and “stardom” by her parents.
cinemachick 2 points 1d ago
I'll provide some anecdotal answers, as a former professional singer. Since I am AFAB, I have a higher range but cannot hit very low notes (tenor/bass range), my low notes are in my "chest voice" and my high notes are in my "head voice", not a falsetto like AMAB people do. (I am very jealous of guys, they can hit all the notes!!!) I trained via warmups and exercises throughout my career to improve how I controlled my breathing/lung capacity, switching to a "belt" or mixed voice depending on the emotion of a given song + the pitch of the note, and how to control when and how I used vibrato at the end of a note. It also helps that I have a version of "perfect pitch", where I can tell the interval distance between notes or if a song is being played in its original key vs. being played higher or lower.

Very recently, I did a recording for an informal album and saved my two most vocally intense songs for the end of the four-hour session. I accidentally sang the hardest song second-to-last, so I still had an almost-as-hard song right after. I found that my ability to control my voice was a lot harder, I had to really focus in order to keep my vocal quality from dropping (and even then it didn't sound awesome.) It felt like trying to run the 26th mile of a marathon after sprinting uphill. It helped me realize that a lot of "bad" singers are dealing with a lack of "muscle memory" and control in their throats. A novice runner has poorer form than someone who's been training for years, and the same is true for someone who only sings at Christmas and the occasional karaoke night. Practicing singing (and practicing *correctly*) will make you a better singer, full stop.

Also, "pleasant" ≠ good singing. A soft tone is great for a Catholic choir, but not for singing death metal or KISS. Knowing how to sing in your desired genre can be just as important as knowing the notes and lyrics!
SEARCHFORWHATISGOOD 2 points 1d ago
I took singing lessons in one of those continuing education classes. My teacher was a Mongolian opera singer. She said anyone can learn to sing well. Like many things, the self-fulfilling belief of "I just can't do this thing" wins out in most cases.
amatulic 2 points 1d ago
Any singing voice is "good" for specific purposes. An example that comes to mind would be Bonnie Tyler, whose voice was great for "Total Eclipse of the Heart" but would probably not be great for an acapella choir solo.

Likewise, a professional opera singer doesn't do well singing rock or pop music (such a singer has to retrain to lose or suppress the vibrato). A country-western singer with a nasal twang may be great for that genre of music but terrible for jazz.

While genetics can play a role, a terrible singing voice can be made into a decent or better voice with proper breath training and ear-training for pitch, and of course practice. Vocal cords use muscles and controlling them requires training.
(additional comments not archived)
This nonprofit website is run by volunteers.
Please contribute if you can. Thank you!
Our mission is to provide everyone with access to large-
scale community websites for the good of humanity.
Without ads, without tracking, without greed.
©2023 HumbleCat Inc   •   HumbleCat is a 501(c)3 nonprofit based in Michigan, USA.