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Explain Like I'm Five | Don't Panic!

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ELI5: how does a VPN hide your traffic from your isp? (self.explainlikeimfive)
submitted 23h ago by stupidrobots
I know people that pirate use vpns because your isp can see that you downloaded a movie illegally or something but how does a VPN prevent that? Doesn't your computer still go through the isp to get to whatever service is providing the VPN? In my mind it goes source > VPN > ISP > PC but then the ISP still sees the illegal file going to your PC. What am I missing here?
Astramancer_ 1 points 22h ago
A VPN has an encrypted connection between you and them. Your ISP can see that you are connected to the VPN and can tell that you are downloading lots of data, but it cannot tell what that data is, or even what type of data it is.

In ELI5 terms, normal web traffic is like if you hand the your ISP a piece of paper that say "Please give this to youtube: Please show me video dQw4w9WgXcQ" and then youtube hands your ISP a piece of paper that says "Please give this to StupidRobots: Here's the video."

A VPN service gives you an envelope that you can put the piece of paper into, so you're handing the ISP an envelope with "Please give this to my VPN" and then your the VPN hands your ISP an envelope that says "Please give this to stupidrobots."

They can see *that* you are making a request and getting a response, but they can't see *what* the request or response is. They can tell how big the response is, but they can't tell if it's a video, a videogame, or the Q3 TPS reports.

Somewhat related, there's also TOR (the onion router) which you might have heard about in conjuction with the "deep web." It acts something like a VPN but instead of just one envelope there's dozens, maybe hundreds, all nested together.

So you hand the first one to your ISP and it says "Please give this to TOR1" and then TOR1 gets it and opens it and finds another envelope that says "Please give this to TOR2" and then TOR2 gets it and there's another envelope that says "Please give this to TOR3." At this point TOR1 knows it came from you, TOR2 only knows that it came from TOR1 and that it's going to TOR3. It has no idea where it came from or where it's ultimately going. Eventually your request reaches the server you were trying to talk to in the first place and the whole process happens in reverse, with your data bouncing from router to router with most of them having absolutely no idea where the data came from or where it's actually going, or what it is.
zigbigidorlu 1 points 21h ago
... Did you just Rickroll me?
Astramancer_ 1 points 21h ago
Yes. If I'm going to reference a random arbitrary video there's no way I wasn't gonna do that one.
ry_fluttershy 1 points 20h ago
Ngl I know the never gonna give you up link from the dQw
frogjg2003 1 points 19h ago
I always look for the XcQ.
The_Deku_Nut 1 points 19h ago
A link as old as time
Justsomedudeonthenet 1 points 12h ago
Somewhere there is an amazing video someone made that either starts with dQw or ends with XcQ, and the creator doesn't know why nobody will ever click their links to this amazing and actually relevant video.
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he75bf8or 1 points 19h ago
Oh my god I actually thought “i wonder if that’s the id for the rickroll video that he used as an example” when I read your comment
RepulsiveVoid 1 points 15h ago
I remember the original from the "WgXcQ" ending. Here are 3 copies to watch out for ~~and a 4th one remastered by the maestro himself in 2022~~.

p7YXXieghto

eBGIQ7ZuuiU

oHg5SJYRHA0

~~tgTUtfb0Ok8 (2022 version)~~

And yet I was unable to find the one I fell for a few months ago. Keep safe and now it's time to start learning new end codes for youtube vids if you want to stay not-rick rolled.
bigrob_in_ATX 1 points 14h ago
This dude went down the rickroll rabbit hole
SilverStar9192 1 points 12h ago
> a 4th one remastered by the maestro himself in 2022.

That's an entirely new/recreated video, not just a "remaster" which implies updating based on old master recordings.

The problem was the original was only shot on videocassette and there was no high-quality master available. So they couldn't "remaster" in a meaningful way for better quality.

Also the new one is effectively a song-length ad for an insurance company, there's blatant product placement throughout.
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culljay 1 points 18h ago
I think if the whole Internet was just Wikipedia and interactions like this, we'd be healthier as a species.
zigbigidorlu 1 points 21h ago
I was gonna give you an award, but Reddit is changing over to a new system. Instead, I applaud you for making me work to get RR'd.

Edit: 5 people have given me gold, so that gave me enough coins to actually gave op another gold!
Sideshow_G 1 points 16h ago
"I don't even see the matrix code any more.. I just see ..blond.. redhead..."
x420aaron 1 points 16h ago
Perfect execution.
here_i_am_here 1 points 15h ago
Hey, you know the rules. And so do I.
LurkerOrHydralisk 1 points 19h ago
XcQ, link stays blue!
SupersonicTrex 1 points 15h ago
You beautiful brilliant bastard
xxb4xx 1 points 13h ago
Legend, you found the opportunity and took your shot.

Also, A+ explanation.
esanders09 1 points 17h ago
Legend!

ETA: can I get an ussie?
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OnlyTrolls42069Yolo 1 points 20h ago
I knew I recognized that string of characters…. Thanks for clicking so I didn’t have to.
4AcidRayne 1 points 20h ago
XcQ is legendary. Once you see that...if ya know, ya know.
dgeimz 1 points 10h ago
EXACTLY
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kwamla24 1 points 18h ago
If you saw a random link to a YouTube video genuinely what is the chance that it's a Rickroll, it has to be 5% to 10% at this point?
PeppersHere 1 points 18h ago
50/50 actually. It either is or it isn't.
xxSuperBeaverxx 1 points 17h ago
This guy statistics
FerretChrist 1 points 17h ago
This guy stats.
CreatureWarrior 1 points 17h ago
r/theydidthemath
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BornLuckiest 1 points 14h ago
... we both know what's going on.
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richh00 1 points 17h ago
XcQ no thank you
ocular__patdown 1 points 17h ago
Bruh if you dont know xcq by now you deserve to get rick rolled
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tim36272 1 points 22h ago
>In ELI5 terms, normal web traffic is like if you hand the your ISP a piece of paper that say "Please give this to youtube: Please show me video dQw4w9WgXcQ" and then youtube hands your ISP a piece of paper that says "Please give this to StupidRobots: Here's the video."

Obligatory ELI10: in reality that explanation only applies to HTTP traffic, not HTTPS (the little lock on your address bar).

With HTTPS the request is like "Here is a sealed envelope, please give it to YouTube. The contents are written in a secret code so don't even bother opening it"

With HTTPS + VPN it's like "Here is a sealed envelope, written in code, addressed to my personal assistant. Only my assistant knows how to decipher who to forward it to."
pooish 1 points 18h ago
yeah, that's a thing that people seem to miss: With HTTPS, the DNS query about what IP youtube.com resides behind and the handshake addressed to that address are unencrypted, but everything else is.

It goes like this:

client: Hello DNS, which IP address does youtube.com have?

DNS server: Hello, it is behind 123.123.123.123
Client: Thank you. Hello 123.123.123.123, are you Youtube.com?

123.123.123.123: Hello client, yes I am. Here is this certificate written by a party we both trust that proves it.

Client: Thank you. I propose we use <algorithm> to communicate going forwards, as it is the most secure form of communication that we both support.

youtube.com: Thank you, switching to <algorithm>.

Client, now encrypted: Thank you, now, i would like to use the GET method towards your directory of "/watch", with the query string "v=dQw4w9WgXcQ" I have this cookie proving I am this user as well as all this supplementary other data

Server, also encrypted: Here is the result for your query.
Jawesome99 1 points 17h ago
Very good, small correction: it's GET on /watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
pooish 1 points 15h ago
ah yeah, that's true. fixing it now.
ouralarmclock 1 points 13h ago
I work in web dev and knew all of this, but I still can't help but be excited about how fucking awesome technology is. Hopefully quantum computing never becomes a serious thing or it's all going to shit!
The_JSQuareD 1 points 12h ago
But quantum computing would be (and to some extent already is) an even cooler thing! And at any rate, symmetric encryption algorithms are not susceptible to quantum attacks, and post-quantum asymmetric encryption algorithms exist.
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LARRY_Xilo 1 points 21h ago
This. Since HTTPS the point of VPNs isnt to hide the content from someone its to hide the real IP adress you are talking to.
DumpoTheClown 1 points 21h ago
many corporate networks have a device on the network perimeter that acts as a "man in the middle." the https traffic from the client is decrypted, inspected, and then re-encrypted before being sent to the remote server. This is all transparent to the casual user on the client side.
Raistlarn 1 points 18h ago
Want some fun. Your antivirus might also man in the middle you without your knowledge.
Cow_Launcher 1 points 17h ago
I would never connect a personal device to a corporate network (much less accept a cert). Not because I don't trust them - it's entirely reasonable that they would want to know what their network is being used for - but because my work and personal lives are effectively airgapped and all they need to know about me is what I actively choose to tell them.
Sarvadi 1 points 19h ago
This only works if your browser trusts the forged corporate certificate. Unless you install it on your personal devices or bypass the certificate warning, they can’t decrypt traffic from your personal devices.
Chrazzer 1 points 18h ago
> A device on the network

Bruh, why are you so mysterious about it. It's a firewall
Clewin 1 points 16h ago
Which is largely pointless, they can install software on the client machine that does exactly the same thing once the data is decrypted and then send back to the mothership for analysis.

For an eili5 on https:
You have a friend name Jose that you're afraid mom wouldn't approve of, so you create a secret code and Jose creates a secret code and you entrust the secret key you can use to encode a message with your friend Sue. You can now use Jose's public code, entrusted to Sue, with your private code that neither Jose or Sue know, to send a message to Jose that only he can decode using his private key combined with your public key, which he got from Sue.

Man-in-the-middle:
Mom (who may be male, I'm ok with non-binary gender roles) knows you're sending messages to Jose and is furious she can't read them. She can sneak into your bedroom at night and read the unencrypted version, knowing you may notice (in the computer world, that's analogous to packet sniffing) or she could call Sue's mom and put the pressure on Sue to create her own secret public code, which is sent to Jose and you instead of your code. Mom then re-encrypts the message with her private key and your public key and sends it to you when she gets a message from Jose and vice versa. You're none the wiser, Jose's none the wiser, but mom knows everything.

This is why Certificate Authorities (CAs) need to be trusted, as they are the man (or in this case, woman, Sue, unless it's a boy named Sue - good old Johnny Cash reference if you're too young). If, say, the NSA or CIA forces a CA to allow them to sit in the middle, they can spy on everyone.
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SanityInAnarchy 1 points 17h ago
While, at the same time, showing showing all of that to the VPN provider.

TOR at least theoretically means there's no one company that can see what you're doing. But a VPN just swaps one ISP for another.

I've said it before: VPNs are *not useful* for privacy. You want the TOR browser -- that is, TOR, plus a customized Firefox with a bunch of anti-fingerprinting stuff. And it's a giant pain in the ass to use, because it has to turn off half of the features you expect a browser to have in order to stop fingerprinting.
Somerandom1922 1 points 15h ago
Yep.

VPNs have genuine real uses. Security isn't really one of them.

Whenever I see a YouTube video sponsored by Nord or whatever, they'll often talk about how "attackers can steal your data" completely neglecting to mention that only applies to websites without https, which these days is basically none of them.
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i8noodles 1 points 11h ago
I think this get overshadowed. Vpn has uses. There is no doubt. But the amount of people who think a vpn will magically create a fort Knox for internet security for all internet traffic is enormous.
tim36272 1 points 21h ago
Yup, plus it hides your identity from the website as well. For example it will be harder (but not impossible) for the website to associate your advertising ID with you when going through the VPN.

Edit: if you're trying to stay hidden from websites then it will be harder for them to track you. If you're not trying to stay hidden then yeah it's not helping much.
0xLeon 1 points 21h ago
Not really. This depends a lot more on the browser, your cookies and what services you're using simultaneously. IP address is a very weak indicator of identity due to dynamic IP assignment or shared addresses anyway. If you're using a VPN but still log into every service and use a standard-configured browser, services will have no trouble tracking you.
Jonathan_the_Nerd 1 points 18h ago
Doesn't do much against browser fingerprenting. You need to configure your browser to not give out so much information. I used to use NoScript, but it broke large parts of the Web for me.
1nd3x 1 points 21h ago
>Yup, plus it hides your identity from the website as well.

Unless you're logging into accounts on the VPN like Facebook because they'll build a digital fingerprint of you to track you across the net despite the VPN
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death_hawk 1 points 14h ago
Therein lies a separate issue though.

Sure your ISP can't see what's in the envelope, but the address is in plain text. It knows you're visiting www.brazillianfartpr0n.com, but it doesn't know exactly what you're watching.

In this instance with VPN, your ISP has no idea you're visiting brazillianfartpr0n.com, but your VPN can absolutely see it.

DNS over HTTPS fixes this by writing the address label in code as well.
NotSeveralBadgers 1 points 12h ago
Oh my god why is the link purple? What does purple mean??
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wildfire393 1 points 22h ago
Do note that there are costs to using proxies this way, every request takes additional time to pass along, especially if the nodes in the process are in other countries this can really add up when using a multiple-hop system like TOR.

Also for TOR specifically, a lot of major websites maintain a list of known "exit nodes" (final steps in the chain where they make the actual request) and place limits on what traffic from those nodes can do. Google, for instance, will require a CAPTCHA verification before allowing this traffic to execute a search. Wikipedia won't allow edits. This is designed to prevent people from using TOR plus automation to so things like bypass API limits/restrictions, or to influence things in a completely anonymous manner.
CrashUser 1 points 19h ago
In addition, the vast majority of the exit nodes are monitored or controlled by government agencies, because nobody really wants to run them in the first place since it makes you a lightning rod for all the kiddie porn and other nasty junk getting routed through.
bibliophile785 1 points 18h ago
Source on "vast majority"? My understanding is that breaking anonymity on TOR is possible but *very* difficult and *very* time-consuming specifically because ownership of nodes is still quite diverse.
ViscountBurrito 1 points 17h ago
Although, like anything, it’s still vulnerable to opsec failures and social engineering. For example, if you email a threat to your university while you’re on TOR, they could check to see if anybody on their network was using TOR at the time. The university still wouldn’t know for sure what you were doing on TOR, but it’s enough to narrow down the suspects for further investigation.
pipedreamSEA 1 points 17h ago
My understanding is that if one single entity controls > 50% of the exit nodes, they can decrypt all the layers and figure out where the requests are coming from
i8noodles 1 points 10h ago
If it was entirely controlled by governments then it is a pointless endeavor. Granted it's origin lies with a method to send information for American spy agency to covertly send data but it has evolved to be so much more.

Besides tor is not that secure. It is secure compared to vpn. Just like how vpn are secure compared to regular traffic. There are simply better options if u are technically competent and you want privacy. Even tor themselves admit it.
rustyflavor 1 points 6h ago
> nobody really wants to run them in the first place

Running a TOR exit node is a little like volunteering to carry strangers' bags through security at an airport.
chenkie 1 points 21h ago
I recognize those letters from the YouTube link example…. Cheeky
kerbaal 1 points 18h ago
> Somewhat related, there's also TOR (the onion router) which you might have heard about in conjuction with the "deep web." It acts something like a VPN but instead of just one envelope there's dozens, maybe hundreds, all nested together.

Actually its a bit simpler than that. Tor is based on the realization that there is a sweet spot of 3 envelopes. The entry point knows who you are, and who the middle router is. The middle router does not know who you are and only knows the entry and exit routers. The exit router knows the destination and middle, but not the entry or originator.

More nodes add security with diminishing returns and increases in overhead.
throwit700 1 points 22h ago
The most excellent ELI5 I’ve ever read… Kudos
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dashader 1 points 19h ago
>Please show me video dQw4w9WgXcQ

Excellent explanation! But it's worth mentioning that ISP will *not* know which video you asked youtube.

All they will know that you are talking to youtube. They can *guess* what kind of data you are downloading, but never know for sure.

This is the difference between **https://** and **http://,** most of the stuff is **https://** now-days.

With **https://** you can only see what they are connected to. Can't see the URL, can't see the content, can't see anything but the IP really.

Your description better matches how **http://** works, where ISP can literally see your credit card and the messages. But it's rarely used anywhere.
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pareech 1 points 18h ago
>or the Q3 TPS reports

While your response is great, this was my favorite line in your response.
DrBob2016 1 points 17h ago
Same, Is that you Milton?
green_meklar 1 points 18h ago
>Please show me video dQw4w9WgXcQ

Or, you know, don't.
mrj893 1 points 18h ago
Did you see the memo? We’re putting cover sheets on all TPS reports from now on.
lazarus870 1 points 15h ago
Don't do this to me - not on a Sunday :(
Cataleast 1 points 21h ago
Nailed it! Bravo!

>!Also, XcQ spotted! Put your hands together for Mr. Astley! ;)!<
utspg1980 1 points 18h ago
If I'm using a VPN, does my ISP know that the VPN gave me one single 10gb envelope? Or (assuming it was a constant connection/transfer without interruption) it just knows that the VPN gave me a total of 10gb, and that may have been in just one envelope or 10 or 100 envelopes?
[deleted] 1 points 17h ago
[deleted]
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mab1376 1 points 17h ago
Simply using DNS over HTTPS and a DNS provider that isn't your isp limits them only to know the IPs you're accessing. This is available in browser options. Firefox is best since if you use Chrome; google gets all the telemetry. But then again, the DNS provider you use then has the info, such as Cloudflare. VPNs are mainly necessary for non-SSL traffic, such as torrenting, assuming the provider doesn't keep logs or supply info when requested. Sure, there are some outliers, like a site that may use regular HTTP and never modernized or using public wifi with no passphrase, but if you're just browsing the web at home, encrypted DNS is good enough for most. If you're really tinfoil hatty, use a VPN, then Tor, and use Dickduckgo and never log in to something like Gmail, Outlook, or Yahoo.

https://developers.cloudflare.com/1.1.1.1/encryption/dns-over-https/encrypted-dns-browsers/
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Dormsea 1 points 21h ago
Are you saying that if you download a video or music using Tor you donot need a vpn and your isp cannot identify the contents, or is it better to use Tor plus a vpn
Astramancer_ 1 points 20h ago
Use a VPN. TOR is gonna be a lot more rate limited. With a VPN the ISP can still only see that you're talking to the VPN.
LtCptSuicide 1 points 20h ago
VPN, without TOR for downloading. TOR without VPN for browsing is how a friend explained it to me.

Essentially, using TOR more or less sets of a long convoluted chain of "give this request to this node" a dozen times or so before getting to the destination and working backwards through the chain to get back to you.

Using a VPN bottlenecks this process so that all of that all basically comes back to the VPN essentially adding a bunch of time and steps to ultimately only get the same result you would have just using a VPN by itself but even slower.

I mean I can be wrong. I'm just going off of how I had been explained to about it. If someone who actually knows what the hell they're talking about wants to chime in to correct me go ahead.
hazdjwgk 1 points 18h ago
Combining TOR and VPN doesn't really give you more protection.

Also, TOR is incredibly slow (lot of routing, also it's free service, so less bandwidth), so don't use it for downloading or watching media (videos, music etc.).

So, downloading big stuff = VPN, probably paid one, TOR - web browsing (but again, it's slow, so it's better to just use free or paid VPNs, unless you are looking for specific tor websites). So yeah, if you really want - use VPNs. Don't use TOR (unless you know why you are using it).
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kwamla24 1 points 18h ago
I saw the URL and thought that's probably a rickroll
da2Pakaveli 1 points 17h ago
Aren't most URIs encrypted by now? I.e the subquery from the URI is not seen by the ISP, only the connection data for the YouTube domain is returned and then you communicate with the YouTube servers to "please show you" video PfYnvDL0Qcw
rainbowjudge 1 points 17h ago
Please update highlighting VPN. The VPN tunnel itself is nothing without ADDED encryption.

Often its an interchangeable term, but the technology of VPN is simply a tunnel.
It doesnt have an encrypted connection by default, thus someone reading this (since Googling ELI5 and topcomment is common) could potentially simply buy a VPN service that doesnt offer encryption.

And if this person was in need to hide their traffic, well bad.
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lariojaalta890 1 points 18h ago
Wouldn’t it be more accurate to categorize the ‘deep web’ as sites that are not indexed so generally hidden from the public but can be accessed by a direct URL or IP address and usually require a password or other credentials to access content. For example; online banking, email, medical record portals, your social media accounts, etc. While the ‘dark web’ is not accessible via traditional browsers rather you’ll need to use Tor with something like Onion Browser.
atrophyapathy 1 points 14h ago
This is the correct nomenclature.
IndependentPoole94 1 points 13h ago
Yes. Noobs confuse the two surprisingly often.
antiauthoritarian123 1 points 19h ago
Good information, with a Rick roll lol
Draelon 1 points 19h ago
One note on that: if you’re logged in to things like Google, your browser is using third party cookies, etc, using a VPN on protects your privacy locally (like if someone is snooping your packets on the network)…. Big data can still see what sites your browser is going to, the cookies are still functioning, etc….
la-wolfe 1 points 17h ago
As someone studying IT with no previous experience, this was great! Thanks for your awesome bits of knowledge, Ranger (Reddit stranger).
st3ll4r-wind 1 points 18h ago
That is **not** how it works on YouTube or any modern website for that matter that has TLS encryption.
Jonathan_the_Nerd 1 points 18h ago
You're right. Your ISP can't see the content of your communication with YouTube. But they can still see that you're communicating with YouTube (or your favorite porn site). And YouTube (or your favorite porn site) can see which IP address you're connecting from.

With a VPN, your ISP can only see that you're connecting to the VPN. And YouTube (or whatever site you're visiting) sees the connection coming from the VPN, not from your IP address. So if you want to watch stuff on Netflix that's not available in your country, you can just choose a VPN endpoint in a different country, and Netflix thinks you're in that country. Or if you want to download pictures of great tits, you can do so without worrying about your ISP telling your mom.
MrNorrie 1 points 17h ago
Risky click of the day, but it paid off!
my_girl_is_A10 1 points 17h ago
That's the big key point that I don't think got enough emphasis. That's why using a credible VPN for things like torrents is critical, there's no way for the ISP to see the data transferred, what it is, or where it's from other than the VPN node.
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GenXCub 1 points 22h ago
Let’s say your ISP watches you from the outside of your house and knows where you are going, but it can’t hear you (your ‘voice’ is encrypted)

Instead of you going out and buying weed, you ask your friend (VPN) to go get some and bring it back to your house.

All your ISP knows is that you talked to your friend and they came back into your house with something, but they don’t know what that something was (it’s encrypted).
SanityInAnarchy 1 points 16h ago
This is a great explanation, because it leads into how VPNs *don't* really keep you private:

First, you're trusting your friend with a lot here. In real life, they're actually a friend, so maybe you have a reason to. But a VPN is just another business, why would you trust them more than you'd trust an ISP?

Second, your friend has an ISP, too. It's not like what you're doing is actually hidden from all ISPs. You're just hoping your friend doesn't tell anybody that you're the one they were buying weed for.

Except there's a lot of ways you can reveal that anyway, like browser fingerprinting, or just logging into social media sites and such. If you give your friend your loyalty card to go buy weed with to make sure you get the "10 baggies and the next one's free" discount or whatever, then the weed store can probably track you as well as if you came in yourself.

So if you're actually trying to stay hidden, use TOR. Alice buys some weed, but she doesn't know who it's for, she just knows she has to package it up and give it to Bob. Bob gets a package, he doesn't know what it or who it's for and he can't open it, he just knows he has to get it from Alice and give it to Carol. Carol gives the box to you, she doesn't know what is or where it's from, she doesn't even know about Alice, she just knows it came from Bob. If any of those people forgets (doesn't log) this one package, since they deal with tons of packages all the time, it's going to be very hard for *anyone* to figure out what happened. And all this happens through the TOR Browser, which does a decent job of hiding from fingerprinting (no "loyalty cards" by accident).
PROBABLY_POOPING_RN 1 points 14h ago
Yes, thank you. VPNs are the biggest Internet con of the last 10 years.

Source: see post above.

A few other reasons you should not trust your VPN...

- They are missold as protecting your privacy on open WiFi networks, which they don't. Everything is certified with TLS these days (the encryption is actually less important than host certification), and 'hackers' do not give a shit about what you're doing online. They just care if your device isn't certifying the host on the other end because it makes you easy to compromise. TLS already does this. Part of the 'handshake' a device does during an HTTPS connection involves verifying the party on the other end is who they say they are. Ten years ago this might have been a selling point. It's not now.
- Under EU law, at least, they *have* to log everything for a minimum period of time (years not months)
- As an ex-sysadmin and a software developer, it is impossible to maintain a large-scale VPN service *without* logging what your customers are doing, even if only for a few weeks. How the hell do providers like nordvpn troubleshoot issues with their network otherwise?
- You're trusting a random company to safeguard your privacy. A company who missold you their product and almost certainly lies about what they log.

I'd like to see one of the providers subpoenad. They are dodgy. Imagine if it came out that half their customers were downloading kiddie porn or something. I guarantee they will hand those logs over in an instant (if they haven't already.)

I didn't particularly want to use TOR, so I developed my own personal use solution that spins up Wireguard connections to endpoints as and when I need them. It's more expensive but at least I know what's happening with my data (and I can figure out ways around it if I want to.) if enough people are interested I'll clean it up and release it under GPL
pumpcup 1 points 11h ago
>I'd like to see one of the providers subpoenad.

Private Internet Access has been subpoenaed twice and had no logs to produce, btw.
WilliamBott 1 points 10h ago
So have others. Generally one of the MANY VPNs that are NOT based in the U.S. or Europe. There are plenty that don't log anything other than your IP address, connected time and length, and total bytes transferred...then delete even that after a few days.
white87wolf 1 points 6h ago
There are a subsection of self-professed privacy gurus that like to rip on VPN's and spread conspiracy theories about them. It feels cool to think oneself knows something others don't.
idwpan 1 points 10h ago
- It protects you from other people or the network owner from snooping on your traffic. MitM is a thing of the past, sure, but it still protects your privacy as many protocols like DNS are still generally unencrypted.

- Switzerland isn't in the EU for Proton, at least. They've also been subpoenaed and had no logs to give.

- I'm sure there are ways to anonymize user data in any necessary technical logging. Proton has been independently audited - https://protonvpn.com/blog/no-logs-audit/

- There are more providers than UseMySuperPrivateFreeVPN and the likes. I'd certainly trust Mullvad and Proton more than Xfinity or Spectrum or most ISPs when it comes to my privacy. Proven track records.
2called_chaos 1 points 12h ago
> Under EU law, at least, they have to log everything for a minimum period of time (years not months)

Do you mean like payment transaction information (there are VPNs you can pay in cash btw)? Otherwise I would like a quote on that.

> Since Mullvad VPN by law is not required to collect any data related to our users’ activities online

https://mullvad.net/en/blog/2023/5/2/update-the-swedish-authorities-answered-our-protocol-request/
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fuzzy8balls 1 points 19h ago
This is the proper and well succinct explanation.

The other explanations focus on encryption which isn't really the goal since TLS is in use in most protocols but that's not the point. The point is to hide the origin.
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Tillbe 1 points 18h ago
The problem with this example is you would not be asking the friend directly. Your request to the friend still goes through the ISP, the ISP does more then just watch.
oneeyedziggy 1 points 17h ago
Right... It's more like you're isp is a taxi company, so you book a ride to you friend's house and let your friend drive you from there and call a return taxi from your friend's house at the end of the night... As far as the taxi company knows, you just went to and from your friends house
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DadJokeBadJoke 1 points 16h ago
r/explainitlikeimafiveyearoldtoker
he75bf8or 1 points 19h ago
This was really well explained. Thanks
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Dirty_Dragons 1 points 18h ago
There are lots of good answers here as to what a VPN is doing. But they don't address the real issue.

First off, you ISP isn't watching what files you download, VPN or not. It doesn't care, that's not its job.

What's really happening when you download the Guardians of the Galaxy 3 torrent is that your IP address is also being shown to everybody else who is connected to that torrent. In that group of connections it's very possible that a Disney computer or somebody working for them is also connected to that torrent and now they have your IP address and a record of you downloading that file. It's very easy for them connect your IP address to your ISP so they send a letter to the ISPs of everybody they see connected and then your ISP sends you a letter saying that you've been caught by Disney.

The most important thing a VPN does it hide you from Disney. The agents of the mouse will see an IP address downloading the file but because of the VPN they have no way to connect it to who the actual person is.
Embarrassed_Rate_481 1 points 16h ago
So how do police agencies still find some people?
techtechtechtechtech 1 points 16h ago
*Some* VPN providers keep records of who received what IP address and when. So the police issue a subpoena for that information. Picking the right VPN provider can be very important, depending on what you're doing with it. Doing that research can lead you down quite the rabbithole of various countries laws and international intel sharing networks.
bhl88 1 points 13h ago
Probably up to 5 that can be counted (ExpressVPN), not sure how many.
jury_foreman 1 points 12h ago
How do mean Express? As far as that I’m aware they only use RAM so that nothing is recorded.
jtg6387 1 points 16h ago
VPNs can be cracked and traced, it’s just complicated and expensive.

The mouse, to continue the prior example, would spend more money tracking you down than just letting you illegally download a movie, so it’s not worth their time to spend cracking the traffic downloading their content.

They could if they really, really wanted to though.
keslol 1 points 13h ago
information can also be correlated, people make mistakes.

People reuse usernames, emails, connect to a chatroom without the VPN for a minute.

Silk Road (just read the Wikipedia part about Ulbricht) is one example.

Some "hackers" also got caught, cause the Kill Switch(Turn off Internet if not connect to the VPN) wasn't activated or configured correctly
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Tomi97_origin 1 points 22h ago
Imagine the internet like sending a letter and your ISP is like a postman.

Your computer writes a request to a site and gives it to your ISP to deliver. Your ISP needs to know who you are talking to in order to deliver it.

With VPN you still wrote the same request, but you put it inside another letter that you address to the VPN provider. Your VPN gets the letter takes out the one inside and sends it from his connection. After he gets a reply he puts it in a letter and sends it to you.

Your ISP in this case sees that you are just exchanging letters with this one address, but you could be exchanging them with any number of people.

But this obviously means that now your VPN provider knows who you are talking with.
FlowingThot 1 points 20h ago
The thing is in general your ISP doesn't give a shit what you are doing as long as you don't get caught. When people get in trouble for illegal files it's because they are usually using bit torrent that lists your IP address for anyone in the swarm to see. Companies interested in stopping pirates will monitor these swarms and find the IP address of anyone using them to download files and then see which ISP owns that part of the IP range and contact them and say x address has been illegally downloading these files. If your ISP doesn't get this message they won't really give a shit. A VPN when torrenting doesn't give them your IP it gives them the VPN server IP instead and if the anti piracy company goes to complain to the VPN company they will just ignore it. Whether your ISP can see what you are doing or not doesn't really factor into it in this case.
Inspiration_Bear 1 points 17h ago
Some also care now because they are selling all that information about where you go on the internet to marketers
Slypenslyde 1 points 22h ago
Think about your ISP like the Post Office. They could read all your mail if they wanted to because they handle all of it.

Now imagine you think the Post Office is reading your mail but you have something you want to keep secret with a friend, and you don't even want the post office to know you sent it to your friend.

So your friends make a system where you write your letter using a secret code then send it to someone else. That someone else personally delivers your letter to the friend.

The post office can see you're sending a letter to the "someone else". If they open the mail they only see the secret code. The post office can't see what the "someone else" does with the letter after they get it. Therefore this system protects you from the post office knowing what you're doing.

But, obviously, "someone else" knows what you're doing. Presumably you trust them more.

A VPN is like a "someone else" on the internet. The reason people trust them more is they get paid to keep the traffic a secret, whereas the ISP is trying to make money selling information about traffic.
cjt09 1 points 17h ago
> Think about your ISP like the Post Office. They could read all your mail if they wanted to because they handle all of it.

This explanation isn't quite correct: the vast majority of web traffic nowadays is going to be encrypted. That's what the "s" in http**s** signifies: that you're using the TLS protocol to talk to the website. Even if you connect directly to the website, your ISP can't read the content of your traffic aside from the initial few rounds of the TLS handshake. In effect, you're already communicating with websites using a "secret code".

The part about traffic is correct and that's the benefit of a VPN. If you use a VPN then your ISP doesn't know who you're talking to, because from their perspective you're only talking to the VPN.
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Xelopheris 1 points 14h ago
Imagine your ISP is like your mailman. Even if you write your letters in code, they can still see the destination and return address on them. They know who you're writing letters to, how often, and how long the letters are.

But you don't even want them to know that, so you start putting the real envelope in another envelope, and you send that outer envelope to your friend in another city. He opens it and then mails the real envelope, which will have his address as the return address. When he gets a response, he doesn't open it, but just puts it in another envelope and mails it back to you.

This is a VPN. It wraps all your traffic and sends it to another destination that unwraps it and then it carries on. It prevents your ISP from seeing where your internet traffic is coming from or going to, and instead they just see it all going to the VPN.
formerlyanonymous_ 1 points 22h ago
It's like slipping a smaller tube (VPN) into the larger tube (ISP). The smaller tube is coded where the larger tube can't read what's in the smaller tube. The smaller tube extends to an application local to your computer, not at the larger tube ( the network provider level).
ExiledSanity 1 points 17h ago
So....you're saying the internet is a series of tubes?
formerlyanonymous_ 1 points 17h ago
It's definitely not some truck you can dump things on.
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Chaff5 1 points 16h ago
Let's say your parents (ISP) said you can't go to a certain store (website). Now say they built that store inside a mall (VPN). Now you just tell your parents that you went to the mall. They can't tell if you did or did not go to the prohibited store and nobody at the mall is going to tell on you.
Dean7 1 points 15h ago
Let's say you're in bed and want some cookies, so you ask you mum but she says no because it's too late. You shouldn't eat cookies past bed time. It's bad for your tummy.

So instead, you write "cookies please!" On some paper and put it in a little treasure chest only you and your big bro have keys to. You ask mum to give the box to your big brother, and later on she comes back and gives it back to you (a bit heavier!)
halfabricklong 1 points 15h ago
This analogy is good but it originated from you and ended up at your doorstep. Although the ISP doesn’t know what is inside there is always a trail. Albeit deeper and harder and faster and sweatier and…Bang Bro steps in.
SarcasticallyNow 1 points 11h ago
Internet communications are packaged into bite-sized pieces called packets. Each packet contains information about where it comes from, where it is supposed to go, how to handle it, how it connects to other packets, and the main part, the information your program is sending.

Imagine it as an envelope with a letter inside. The letter has a recipient address, return address, and postage. The past office cancels the stamp, and maybe prints bar codes or other delivery instructions, and away we go.

Now, you, as an agent of espionage, wish to obscure your letter. So you encourage the envelope in a second envelope that you address to a trusted handler. The handler acts as a go-between, re-mailing your letter upon receipt to the real intended recipient. Your inner letter also gets its return address changed to the handler, so that any reply to you is also indirect, via the handler.

Finally, even if someone intercepts the letter on the way to the handler, you want to still protect yourself, so you obscure the content of the letter by encrypting it. Now your local post office can't snoop. Of course, if the ultimate recipient isn't in on your scheme they couldn't read it either, so your handler decrypts the message before resending it (and encrypts all replies it gets before forwarding them on to you).

The letter is the packet. The local post office is your ISP. The handler is your VPN company. The recipient is whatever website or other place on the internet that you visit or communicate with.
Consistent_Goal_1083 1 points 22h ago
Close. You sort of have it just a little bit wrong. A VPN is like an anonymous courier service. It’ll pick something up from somewhere and deliver it to somewhere else. All the steps inbetween are generic. How it gets there is supposedly anonymous. Like how VPN say they do not have logs etc. The mechanism for this is just a SSL type tunnel like you have for browsers to your bank etc. because it’s encrypted in this secret tunnel there is now way to know what is in the tunnel. Contrast this to the alternative where your ISP or whatever knows where the source you specifically wanted is.
ballpointpin 1 points 20h ago
Writing on the back of a postcard is visible for all the intermediate mail carriers to see. Putting the postcard into an envelope will mask the contents from the postman and his friends. A VPN is the same, everybody sees where the packets are going and coming from, but their contents are enveloped.
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bradland 1 points 15h ago
Imagine you and I want to send messages to each other, but we're in separate places. We devise a plan to exchange messages by writing them down on paper, giving them to the mail clerk, and telling them to carry the message to the other person.

We simply wrote the messages down on paper, so the mail clerk can read the message and knows who they're delivering it to.

What if we don't want the mail clerk reading our messages? Well, we devise a scheme where we encode our messages in such a way that only you and I can decode them. The mail carrier still knows who the message is going to, but can't read the messages. On the internet, this is called encryption. When you see "HTTPS" in the address, or a little lock in the address bar, that's encryption.

But what if we don't want the mail clerk to read the messages *or* know who they're going to? In addition to encoding the messages, we have the mail clerk carry the letters to a single office. That office then uses a separate mail carrier to relay the message on to the recipient. This way, the mail carrier doesn't know the contents of the message nor the recipient.

That last scheme is basically how VPNs work. In this analogy, the mail clerk is your ISP. VPNs include both encryption and a single point through which all your traffic flows.

When you download an illegal file, your isn't actually the one snooping on you. What's actually happening is that the owner of the intellectual property participates in the file sharing network. They make a note of all the people who connect to the tracker to download the copyrighted file. They collect lists of IP addresses, then they look up which ISP those IP addresses belong to. They notice the ISP that intellectual property is being illegally shared on their network. The ISP then sends you a copyright "strike" notice.

In this situation, the VPN protects you because the connection to the tracker appears to come from the VPN, not your home ISP. So the copyright notices go to the VPN provider. The VPN provider is typically located in a country that doesn't respect copyright. Effectively ending the enforcement process.
LineRex 1 points 13h ago
Your mom doesn't want you to have ice cream, "not in this house!" she says. You install a pipe that goes from your bedroom to your friend's bedroom next door. You tell your friend what ice cream you want and they send you the ice cream through the pipe. You eat the ice cream and your mother only knows that you have a pipe going to your friend's room.

The pipe is the VPN and ice cream is a YouTube video not available in your country.
itemluminouswadison 1 points 20h ago
because 100% of encrypted data goes the vpn, and none of that is understandable by the isp. not the url, the data, nothing

and do the server of the website you're accessing, it looks like a lot of data coming from vpn-provider. there's no way to know that it's you or someone else on the other side (except for browser cookies, that sort of thing)

the IP address just shows "vpn-usa in texas" and all the vpn users show as coming from there. not from your actual town
UnfairDictionary 1 points 19h ago
With VPN your ISP can see you are talking to a VPN server, but nothing else. Without VPN, you ISP can see that you are talking to certain services, like news sites, tiktok, facebook or reddit. Without https your ISP can see everything that happens between you and the service you are using but because almost all services use encryption nowadays, it is rare.

VPN/Tor services aren't really needed for anything else than hiding the services you are using from your ISP. You can still be fingerprinted when using VPN or Tor.
mumblesmcmumble 1 points 17h ago
You're a 5 yr old with one super power. Nobody can look in your bags.

You (PC) have $2 and want to buy some candy from the store (ISP). You don't want your parents, friends, or the store (Gov't/World/ISP) to know you are buying anything, nor what you buy. You get a kid (VPN) from the neighborhood who has a no snitching policy* and have him go in the store to buy your candy, and make sure he puts it in a black grocery bag. He gives you the bag of candy and your parents or other friends can never see what's in the bag.

*Be careful. The kid still knows what you bought. Many of these kids still get to snitching when parents get to asking questions.
SingleAstronomer888 1 points 15h ago
It normally looks like this:

PC > ISP > SERVICE > ISP > PC

A VPN looks like this:

PC > ISP > VPN > SERVICE > VPN > ISP > PC

ISP is cut off from every service between the two VPN hops in the middle. The service could be Facebook, it could be a movie, or anything else, and the ISP never knows the difference because the traffic is encrypted. They know you are talking to your VPN, but they can’t translate it.
MarkusRight 1 points 11h ago
Imagine you have a magical tunnel, just like the ones you see in playgrounds or slides. But this tunnel is super special because it keeps you safe and invisible while you play with your toys and games.

Now, when you use the internet on your tablet or computer, your information, like the games you play and the things you search for, usually travels through regular tunnels. But sometimes, you might want to keep your information secret and safe from bad people who might want to peek at it. That's where a VPN comes in!

A VPN is like a big, invisible blanket that wraps around your tablet or computer. When you turn on the VPN, it creates a secret tunnel that connects your device to a special, secret place far, far away. Imagine it like a hidden clubhouse where only you and your friends can go.

So, when you use the VPN, all your internet stuff, like your games and pictures, travel through this secret tunnel to that special clubhouse. And because it's a secret tunnel, nobody can see what you're doing or what games you're playing. It's like having a magical cloak of invisibility!
asafillintheblank 1 points 10h ago
As a VPN engineer, I can say that a VPN encrypts your connection so that the specific contents are not visible to your ISP.
AvengingBlowfish 1 points 10h ago
If I mail a package to you, the post office can see that I sent you a package.

If I mail all my packages to a friend and the friend rewraps the package and sends it to you, the post office has no idea if the package you receive is from me, my friend, or someone else that the friend does this for.

That’s basically how a VPN works.
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MattieShoes 1 points 9h ago
They can see the traffic, but they can't see what it is because it's encrypted, and they can't see where you're connecting to beyond the other end of the VPN tunnel. All they see is a bunch of encrypted traffic between you and the other end of the VPN tunnel.

There was a whitepaper or something where, by analyzing packet sequences and sizes, they could identify exactly what movie you're streaming from netflix or whatever, but that's more forensic than an ISP is likely to be.
Se7enLC 1 points 8h ago
Imagine your ISP can see every website address you request (since they can).

But now instead of going to a bunch of different websites, you ONLY go to the VPN. Now all your ISP knows is that your traffic goes to a VPN address.

It's like how the mail carrier knows all the mail you get. So instead of getting individual pieces of mail, you get your mail delivered somewhere else, repacked into a box that just says "VPN" on the outside. They know you get boxes, but they don't open them. So they have no idea that you have 8 subscriptions to cat fancy.
Kaneida 1 points 8h ago
you are in a room full of people, you whisper something in your friends ear and he goes out of room with the message

isp can see that ypu connected with your friend but cant hear you and cannot see what your friend does next
Slowest_Speed6 1 points 6h ago
We used to run in open field to get berries from other side of mountain. Hawk saw us running and kill Ooga. Now we run through cave so hawk can not see us running to berries
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Brave_Promise_6980 1 points 21h ago
So today just as you can have a secure connection to say Amazon and go to their HTTPS site, the traffic between you both is secure, well rather than Amazon being a shop if it sold vpn services you would make a secure connection to Amazon and then join the internet from their while Amazon could see what you do your ISP provider and anyone on your local network will only see you going to Amazon.

In effect it makes a tunnel from your computer (or browser) and pops you out on a destination normally mixed with many other users, the tunnel providers often say they don’t keep logs.
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vbpatel 1 points 19h ago
If you send a letter to me, the delivery person (ISP) will see your message. Now if you put the letter in an envelope, the delivery person can’t see your message anymore, just that you are sending me *something*, which is not illegal
bob_in_the_west 1 points 16h ago
>because your isp can see that you downloaded a movie illegally or something

No. Doesn't work like that. Especially not the "or something".

>In my mind it goes source > VPN > ISP > PC but then the ISP still sees the illegal file going to your PC.

Do you do online banking? Don't you think online banking would be super unsecure if your ISP could see all you do with your bank?
UnsignedRealityCheck 1 points 19h ago
Without VPN:

You shout everything from your window to your neighbour and everyone listening can hear you.

With VPN:

You call them on a secured line and you're both talking inside an insulated room.
AlternativeAward 1 points 18h ago
That would be true if HTTPS didnt exist
UnsignedRealityCheck 1 points 18h ago
Well it's ELI5 and that's basically it. HTTPS doesn't save you from IP address reveals, DNS queries etc.
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