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Explain Like I'm Five | Don't Panic!

Last sync: 1y ago
118
eli5: Where did we start counting our years from? (self.explainlikeimfive)
submitted 20h ago by JiPaiHongGanLiao
I was looking at this website and it shows in the year 0, Jesus was 4 years old, but this year is 2023 AD, which counts the years after jesus was born. So..... where did we start counting our years from...?
MercurianAspirations 1 points 19h ago
A monk called Dionysius Exiguus in what is now Romania sat down in the year that we now call 525 a.d. to devise new tables for calculating the date of Easter in various years. In common usage at the time, people just called the years based on who was emperor at the time, so like, "the second year of Augustus" or whomever. But for Christian usage, they counted the years since the reign of the roman emperor Diocletian as the "year of the era of the martyrs". Dionysius thought that was a bit crap though because Diocletian was a Pagan who persecuted christians, so it seemed unseemly to calculate the dates of Easter based on that. So instead, he made a calculation of the years since the time of Christ, and counted that as "Anno Domini", the year (era) of the Lord.

But, it's more likely for a variety of reasons that Jesus was actually born in 2 B.C., not year 0 on Dionysius's calculation of years. It's unclear though whether he even intended that specifically, because when Jesus was "born" and when Jesus was "incarnated" are maybe different times according to obscure Christian doctrines that would have been relevant in his day.
well-litdoorstep112 1 points 17h ago
>Jesus was actually born in 2 B.C., not year 0

Because year 0 never happened. It went from the 31st of December 1bc to the 1st of January 1ad
moltencheese 1 points 17h ago
That must have been one hell of a NYE party
PillowBlankSpace 1 points 15h ago
Must have sucked being in IT and changing over all the date systems.
APracticalGal 1 points 15h ago
Y2 was a bitch
Thuzel 1 points 14h ago
"Have you tried rebooting your tablet?"
necovex 1 points 15h ago
I can see the IT guy working hard into the night just saying “I don’t know who this Jesus guy is, but fuck ‘im”
Freedom_7 1 points 14h ago
Hey Petros, ahhhh, apparently you didn’t put one of those new cover sheets on your TPS scrolls
ripplerider 1 points 13h ago
Had to rebuild the entire damn Antikythera from scratch.
hippyengineer 1 points 15h ago
It was probably a dude with a shovel moving some rocks or something.
flyingace1234 1 points 13h ago
Tfw you party so hard you lose a year.
ink_monkey96 1 points 9h ago
Bit shit for song lyrics though. Prince would’ve had a hard time making “year 1, party’s over, out of time; so tonight we’re gonna party like it’s year minus 1.” into a hit, or even a relatively intelligible statement.
MercurianAspirations 1 points 17h ago
Well yes, though that's not the reason that Dionysius got it wrong.
moumous87 1 points 12h ago
Oh shit!!! I’m in my late thirties and I’m learning this only now!!! I was sure it would be a normal scale and there would be a 1 Jan 0, 2 Jan 0, … , 30 Dec 0, 31 Dec 0, 1 Jan 1AD.

And I thought the convention was that Jesus was born on 25 Dec 0… but no, Christ was born “Before Christ” 👀
hamihambone 1 points 12h ago
he really was ahead of his time.
lisazsdick 1 points 14h ago
I remember learning in high school (70s NYC) that the monk never bothered or realized to count the "0", so the counting was off from the start. Not that I believe for a bloody second that jesus was an actual person. Nothing was written about him in any correspondence, laws, posts, poetry, graffiti etc until 100 yrs after his supposed death, rising & whatnot.
Sarawakyo 1 points 12h ago
Actually almost all historians accept that Jesus did exist. This is a very common topic in r/askhistorians - there is a askhistorians FAQ entry here about this question.
lisazsdick 1 points 12h ago
Not one piece of correspondence, papyrus, clay tablet or wall painting anywhere, mentions jesus christ until one hundred years *after* he supposedly lived. He didn't exist until outta nowhere, poof, he existed.
Farmer-Next 1 points 6h ago
But really, it wouldn't have been 31 Dec 1BC because Jesus was not born yet. It would have been 31 Dec XXXX, in whatever calendar they were using at that time
prove____it 1 points 8h ago
Um, the Jews have been counting consistently since long before then: 5783 currently, soon to be 5784. Can we not use that to calibrate more accurately when Jesus was born?
hewkii2 1 points 1h ago
The main problem is that outside of the Bible we don’t really have documentation on when Jesus was born and the Bible is a little bit vague on the exact elements surrounding the birth to get an accurate timeline
demoni_si_visine 1 points 7h ago
> A monk called Dionysius Exiguus in what is now Romania

I'm having a hard time finding where this guy lived. A lot of sources mainly say he spent a lot of time in Rome.

Romania is .. somewhat more to the est.
Cogswobble 1 points 7h ago
On wikipedia it says he was born in (present day) Romania, but lived in Rome for most of his life.
jeffyIsJeffy 1 points 9h ago
Can you explain further how this monk decided and came to the conclusion that his year was 525?
Peter_deT 1 points 5h ago
People dated by reign-year ("13th year of the Emperor Diocletianus"), which meant the New Year date changed when the ruler changed (and got a bit confused in things like the Year of the Four Emperors), by the names of the Consuls, by years since the founding of Rome (trad 753 BCE), and sometimes by Olympiads (so "in the 3rd year of the 115th Olympiad"), plus local systems. Since there was an official list of Consuls by year going back to the foundation, and lists of recognised imperial reigns, the monk worked back to establish that Jesus was born so many years before his time. He just got the date a few years out.

Dating systems and reconstructing dates, marrying records and checking against known absolute dates (eg records of solar eclipses) is a fun part of ancient history.
Cygnata 1 points 15h ago
I thought is was 4 BCE? Though I've also seen an argument for AD 3.
Sharkbait_ooohaha 1 points 10h ago
Yeah 4BCE is usually given as the date because Matthew says he was born under king Herod and King Herod died in 4BCE so that’s the absolute latest he could’ve been born and still been during Herod’s reign. Luke says he was born when Quirinius was governor which didn’t happen until 6CE so both Matthew and Luke can’t be right so scholars typically think Luke was wrong for a few reasons so we typically have a 4-6BCE range for the birth of Jesus. All that said, I don’t think anybody really knows when he was born so other than a general timeframe we can’t say with any certainty.
GlesgaD2018 1 points 19h ago
There is no year zero (except in the French Revolution, whole other story). In western dating systems it goes 1 BC (before Christ, sometimes in European languages this is seen as AC, ante Christus, which means the same thing) then 1 AD (anno domini, year of our lord). The dating is based upon a reading of the Gospels. They describe historical events and people that the Roman and Church authorities believed they could date. This includes the reign of Herod and the census. The Gospels don’t necessarily agree with each other however, allowing for a revised date to be proposed - hence your account that Jesus was born in 4 BC.
JohnBeamon 1 points 14h ago
This concept never stuck with me for some reason until I understood the number is the year in progress, not the years completed. This year is the 2023rd year AD. Jan 01 immediately after midnight begins the 2024th year. If you count backward, the midnight that began AD started counting the first year, year 1 AD. In a certain perspective, “0” was a tick of the clock, not a year.
culturedgoat 1 points 16h ago
Reign of Herod, yes. The census where everyone had to inexplicably return to their birthplace and wait around to get census-ed - not a thing.
Mowgli_78 1 points 16h ago
Are you being sarcastic? Census were a great thing for the Romans, among many reasons because it was linked to taxes and property.
WatchandThings 1 points 15h ago
Census was a thing but going back to place of birth wasn't. Imagine if we did that with our census. It would be chaos for travel and economy.
Mowgli_78 1 points 15h ago
Please you all go to r/ancientrome because it seems your knowledge on Roman history is... pyrric.
culturedgoat 1 points 16h ago
The census featured in the Bible, in the story of Jesus’ birth, did not happen.
dr_anonymous 1 points 15h ago
The Census of Quirinius did actually happen - in 6CE, 10 years after Herod’s death. But yes, there was no expectation for people to travel for the purpose.
PompeiiDomum 1 points 12h ago
Well then.
Negative_Bake_9764 1 points 3h ago
Census is based on where you live, not where you were born.
rlbond86 1 points 46m ago
Yes but people went back to their home (where they lived) so it could be surveyed for taxes. Not to where they were born. Additionally, the Census of Quirinius happened 10 years after Herod's death despite Luke writing he was king at the time. Scholars widely agree that the book of Luke got its facts wrong.
Cygnata 1 points 15h ago
AD (Anno Domini) should properly go before the number. BC goes after. :)
GlesgaD2018 1 points 17h ago
Wow a gold award. Thanks to the anonymous donor!
cemaphonrd 1 points 16h ago
Well, for starters, we don’t have a precise biography of Jesus’s life- everything written down about him, including the Gospels, are secondary sources written at least 30 years after his death. So even the 4 BCE date is a bit of informed guesswork, but one of the early church councils settled on 1 CE, which at the time would have been styled as something like “the 27th year of the reign of Emperor Augustus.”

Since resetting the calendar every time there is a new ruler makes understanding history difficult (especially after the fall of the Western Roman Empire), there were a few efforts undertaken by the Catholic Church to reform the calendar in the early Middle Ages. Since they were monks, they settled on the traditional date of Jesus’s birth as year 1, and since they were one of the few institutions that had continental reach, (not to mention literacy and record-keeping ability) it caught on throughout Europe, and then spread to other parts of the world via colonialism.
Ridley_Himself 1 points 19h ago
The supposed year of Jesus’s birth was the year 1 AD, but it is more likely that he was born in the year 4 or 6BC. It is actually fairly common for the birth years of historical figures to be uncertain.
Spiritual_Jaguar4685 1 points 19h ago
The short answer through very fuzzy math done by monks. There is a long tradition of monks using religious records as historical records and trying to puzzle out when things happened "religously" by coming to them document historical events.

In the system we used to use "BC" and "AD" corresponded to the Birth of Jesus. Increasingly those terms are be dropped in favor of "BCE" and "CE" (Before Common Era, and Common Era) both because, as you pointed out, Jesus wasn't born in the year 1 CE *and* because the less we incorporate Iron-age mythology into our daily lives, the better.

So first off, there was no year "0", it went straight from 1 BCE to 1 CE.

It was a monk who fixed the year "1 CE" on the calendar by doing some fuzzy math and pegging Jesus's birth to be \~ 750 years *after* the founding of Rome.
evanamd 1 points 11h ago
> The less we incorporate iron-age mythology into our daily lives, the better

> It was some monk who fixed the year “1 CE” on the calendar by doing some fuzzy math and pegging Jesus’s birth to be ~ 750 years *after* the founding of Rome

You just demonstrated the exact reason we shouldn’t be using BCE/CE.

Any questions about it will inevitably address Christianity. If you’re going to change the name to avoid mentions of religion, and then mention religion anyway, you might as well not change the name.
Aridius 1 points 19h ago
BC/AD seems to be making a comeback compared to the late 2000s early 2010s.
Look_to_the_Stars 1 points 19h ago
> the less we incorporate Iron-age mythology into our daily lives, the better

Oh man I can’t wait for your crusade against the names of the days of the week, or the names of the planets.

BC and AD are fine. The fact is, even using BCE and CE still revolve around the original estimation of Jesus’ birth, so you’re still basing your entire year calendar on “Iron-age mythology,” you’re just trying to lie to yourself and say that you’re not.
Monke-like-money 1 points 12h ago
Agreed. It only makes things more confusing with no real benefit.


>Oh man I can’t wait for your crusade against the names of the days of the week, or the names of the planets.

And the names of some of the months
oldpoint1980 1 points 17h ago
Exactly, I dont take any offense that the planets are named after mythological gods. It doesn't mean I "believe" in them when I talk about Jupiter.
atomfullerene 1 points 12h ago
Even the monks and priests of the middle ages didn't see the need to change month and day names away from the old pagan versions, I don't see why we need to change AD and BC.
blurryface464 1 points 9h ago
BCE and CE are still pretty rare for people to use. The vast majority of people, including scientists, still use BC and AD. By using BCE and CE you're not making it any less religious, because today there's basically no religiousness attached to using that. It's like someone saying Oh my god, that doesn't mean they literally believe in God. And it's giving credit to the original inventors of the calender we are still using, which were priests commissioned by the Catholic church. Even if you switch to BCE and CE, you're still using the church's calendar based around Jesus. If you really wanna get away from that, you need to completely start again with a new calendar.

As others have already pointed out, there's a lot of stuff today we have named after god's people once believed in. And by saying Jupiter(Roman god) or saying Thursday(Norse god), that doesn't mean you believe in those gods. Those are things and names that are just part of the history of humanity, like the Gregorian calendar based around Jesus is. So stop being so sensitive about it and just use BC and AD.
PixelMiner 1 points 8h ago
In archaeology we exclusively use BCE/CE, especially in publication.
HarassedPatient 1 points 37m ago
we should go back to using Ab urbe condita AUC
BlueTommyD 1 points 19h ago
0BC relates to the year which it was decided that Jesus Christ was born. But the man Jesus/Joshua (in so far as he is agreed to have actually existed as described,) was more likely alive circa. 6 to 4 BC – AD 30 or 33, based on contemporary rercords and scholarly consensus.

It's an inexact science.

The below is taken from the Wikipedia citations (Link) :

*John P. Meier writes that Jesus' birth year is c. 7 or 6 BC.\[1\] Karl Rahner states that the consensus among Christian scholars is c. 4 BC.\[2\] E. P. Sanders also favors c. 4 BC and refers to the general consensus.\[3\] Jack Finegan uses the study of early Christian traditions to support c. 3 or 2 BC.\[4\]*
Target880 1 points 19h ago
>0BC relates to the year which it was decided that Jesus Christ was born.

There is no year zero in the BC/AD system, the year after 1 BC is 1 AD. It was devised in 525 AD by the monk Dionysius Exiguus and become commonly used in the 9th century. At this time in Europe, the idea of zero as a number among others did not exist. It was the Roman number system taht was commonly used. It was around that time it was invented in India.

The idea spread through the Muslim countries to Europe. It is with the publication of the book Liber Abaci by Fibonacci in 1202 that zero as a number, the positional system with the digital we use today with he 0-9 digits became commonly used.


It is not surprising a system create almost 700 yeas before zero as we know it arrived in Christian Europe do not include a year zero.

I tried to quickly look up if it was based on the idea that Jesus was born 1 BC or 1 AD but claims that both was used
BlueTommyD 1 points 17h ago
Absolutely fair point thanks for the correction
Dunbaratu 1 points 14h ago
This problem is the main reason people changed from saying "BC" and "AD" to saying "BCE" and "CE". (Every so often there's someone who gets outraged thinking it was some big atheist plot but really that's not it.)

Even among people who 100% believe in the events of the New Testament, there is still a realization that when the early church tried figuring out the exact year of it, they didn't have the exact date right and therefore if you keep calling them "BC" and "AD" then you get stupid-sounding statements.

Statements like "Christ was born in 4 BC" which means "Christ was born 4 years before Christ was born".

At that point you can either:

(A) Change the Epoch by 4 years. Then change literally every calendar date, every record, every historical document, to reflect the new meaning.

or

(B) Change the Epoch by 4 years. Then leave old documents alone but start using the new reckoning on new documents, with the understanding that you have to know when the document was written to know what the numbers mean.

or

(C) Leave the Epoch alone, as is. Keep the same counting system. But stop claiming it's based on when Jesus was born. Instead just change the meaning to "Years since the arbitrary year we've been commonly using for counting years." Then you don't have to change any documents, or do any weird shifting to read time-spans between written years. You just stop pretending you're measuring from Jesus's birthday.

(C) was a heck of a lot less hassle than either (A) or (B). So that's what we did. Thus we say "common era" instead of "since Christ was born".
atomfullerene 1 points 12h ago
I feel like (D) would be the easiest option: Keep AD and BC, and understand that it doesn't matter one single bit if it actual matches up with the date of Jesus's birth, any more than it matters if Thursday is _actually_ Thor's favorite day or if January is sacred to Janus.
evanamd 1 points 11h ago
Exactly. We still use the Latin a.m. and p.m. for time keeping, even though the origins and literal meanings of those words don’t match up with how we measure time nowadays

Loanwords and language drift is a thing and it’s not bad to accept it
DumpoTheClown 1 points 19h ago
We dont know the exact date. This is because exact measurements and precice record keeping (in Western culture anyway) didn't exist until scientific rigor became normalized. The Jewish and Christian accounts originated as word of mouth storytelling, which were inconsistent due to embellishments and approximations.
r2k-in-the-vortex 1 points 18h ago
Embellishments is putting it ligthly, the gosphels are cultist fanfiction and have a very remote relationship with reality.
CMG30 1 points 18h ago
We picked an arbitrary date and made that year zero so that we could start counting the years. Obviously, time existed before our selected year zero so to account for that, we count backwards from the selected year when we need to put a date to something older.

Because religion is/was a big part of social at the time we were making up counting schemes, we picked a date that someone thought correspond to the birth of Jesus. Hundreds of years ago retroactively applying dates was never going to be an exact exercise, but we're stuck with it.
r2k-in-the-vortex 1 points 18h ago
There is no year zero. the concept of zero was unknown technology when the anno domini system was invented.
QuorusRedditus 1 points 18h ago
People were counting years from foundation of Roman Empire but after it fell, church decided to count years from birth of Christ that they manage to calculate. It was wrong because year 0 was missing and also Bible is contradictory to when it was.
BulkyPerformance6290 1 points 17h ago
A couple of comments seem to have touched on this already, but it really does depend on where in the world you are. I'm not an expert by any means, just a guy who reads some random stuff online from time to time. But as somebody else said, in Judaism, the year is currently 5783 (is that the years since Genesis?), and I'm pretty sure there are many Asian countries, where the predominant religion is not Christianity, that have completely different years, based on their own beliefs. However, BC/AD or BCE/CE seems to be well understood globally due to the spread of Christianity. But I may be wrong.
a_wild_queer07 1 points 19h ago
it was what jesus was born or something. but in jewish culture its 5783 bc we didn't start over when one random dude was born or whatever
r2k-in-the-vortex 1 points 18h ago
Wasn't anno mundi invented in the 11th century or something? Similarly, nobody used anno domini in the 1st century, that too is invention of medieval europe, centuries after the supposed events.
mono15591 1 points 19h ago
To piggy back of of OPs question. Was this dating system something that was implemented/ named(bc/ad) after or was this something the people of the time followed ?
DragonBank 1 points 19h ago
The people of what time? It was implemented by the church in the 500s and grew quickly as the church was everywhere. From there, it was simply easier for everyone to conform to the same dating convention so it became the standard whether or not the church was involved.
GreatCaesarGhost 1 points 18h ago
Different dating systems were used by different peoples and could become quite confusing. For example, early Romans sometimes dated time from the assumed year when the city was founded. In the imperial era, they would date years based on the two elected officials who served as consul that year, or the year of a particular emperor’s reign.
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