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Passenger takes controls of small airplane from ailing pilot and crash lands in Martha’s Vineyard (apnews.com)
submitted 1d ago by Ricotta_pie_sky
D74248 506 points 22h ago
I am recently retired from a long career in aviation. 4 decades and change ago I went from being the kid pumping gas to being the new Flight Instructor. And God was it a shock. All those old pilots with impressive resumes and tons of experience and who I had deeply respected... could not fly for shit.

I resolved never to be like that. I set a retirement target and when it came, I walked away. Some skill sets simply do not age well, and 79 year olds should not be flying airplanes.
chipmunkman 162 points 18h ago
I agree and think that also applies to a lot other important jobs too, like elected officials or especially the judicial branch.
P0Rt1ng4Duty 33 points 15h ago
I dunno friend.

Imagine you were a rich person appointed to a position where other rich people were sending you on millions of dollars worth of vacations and you could deprive the less fortunate of the right to their own bodies with the stroke of a pen?

If someone told you to take that away from yourself after you'd gotten used to it, would you?

FlipSide: You're one of 'the good ones' who's fighting the good fight (looking at you RBG) and the 'bad guys' are going to replace you with one of them. Retirement in that case is giving up on humanity.
razorirr 38 points 13h ago
Retirement could have been done during when Obama had a supermajority. She had already had cancer twice at that point.

She got replaced by 'bad guys' because of her arrogance and hubris. I understand that Roe would have fallen anyways 5-4 instead of 6-3, But her legacy at this point is just as much as Mitch's in delaying Garland until trump won and we got Gorsuch.
mlc885 -5 points 12h ago
She should have foreseen Trump in 2009 and stepped down in that two month period in which Democrats had a supermajority?

A fleeting, illusory supermajority
Zerowantuthri 10 points 16h ago
The TBM 940 and 960 have an (optional?) auto-land button passengers can press if the pilot becomes incapacitated.

Granted that is a very expensive plane and that feature is rare (and I expect expensive) but, as these things usually go, the technology should get cheaper and more common over time (not that anything in aviation can ever be considered inexpensive).

It is remarkable though...kinda takes care of everything and even allows passengers to communicate with the ground.

- Advertisement for the system: https://youtu.be/4UFjWOmmeaM
- 1.5 minute video of final approach and auto-land: https://youtu.be/RpB_YG5ySYw

If that system were on a plane I would not mind as much flying with an older pilot.
D74248 15 points 14h ago
I had FMCs leading into CAT III Autoland available to me for last half of my career, and that is a far more capable system than these. But it always has limitations lower than a manual landing. And I have seen it f*ck up biggly (for which maintenance always found an excuse). You can always make a nice video, but the underlying issue is how many nice videos you get out of 1000 attempts to make that nice video.

So you have the magic button that sort of/kind of works. At this price point it won't be fail operative. And it will be limited in terms of winds, so are you willing to only fly when your destination and enroute airports are less than 10 knots of crosswind?

But this only deals with the pilot conveniently going 100% incapacitated. The bigger issues are subtle incapacitation, bad judgment and botched landings/takeoffs.

I left aviation at 62, and I miss the airplane everyday. I started flying at 14, and it was my life and identity. But I as I wrote earlier, I did not want to be "one of those guys". A parallel is that I also manage my own retirement portfolio, and professional reviews over the years have twice told me that things were well planned and to keep doing what I am doing. Nevertheless I have planned for a transition to professional management (and I do have a very detailed written plan). Cognitive decline is a very real thing, and I am not talking about dementia. A normal, healthy person who lives to a ripe old age will still suffer from a slowing startle response (the biggest thing I have seen in older pilots) and decreasing situational awareness.

I don't fly airplanes anymore. I enjoy driving my GTI. Sometimes my wife lets me drive her Z4. I have a higher end road bicycle that I enjoy putting miles on. But at some point all of that will pass, too. Aging is a lot about grasping your decreasing abilities with grace and dignity. Best to be one step ahead of it.

EDIT: Just to add that i upvoted you because I think that was a reasonable response to a rational discussion. That should be a given, but this is reddit.
Zerowantuthri 2 points 13h ago
I *think* this new autoland is not dumb. It doesn't just blindly bolt to the nearest airport. I think it makes some assessment on the best choice with the data it has.

I.E. It will not fly into a thunderstorm or an airport that is closed for whatever reason (I might be wrong). I think it understands the parameters it needs to make a safe landing and then finds the nearest place that meets its criteria.

And, presumably, they will get better in the future.

I might be wrong.

Either way, I'd rather it took over than leave it to someone with no piloting experience to land the plane.

Fair point on just being old and a little slower/befuddled than a younger pilot is but they still seem "ok." No real fix for that other than capping pilot age and/or requiring more stringent re-certification as you get older (some states do that for elderly automobile drivers).

ETA: I think it is the Garmin system landing the plane. Not some proprietary thing Daher (TBM manufacturer) came up with. Presumably, then, it can be put in other planes (obviously tweaked for whatever it is in).

ETA2: Also, this auto-land is broadcasting a mayday and then going for an airport. It has no smarts to deal with ATC. It assumes ATC and nearby pilots will clear the way for it. That simplifies things (a lot for the auto-land system).
[deleted] 7 points 12h ago
[deleted]
buttersstochfan-5956 19 points 17h ago
It’s disheartening but we aren’t 20 forever.
D74248 21 points 17h ago
Each decade is different, with pluses and minuses. Overall, I have not minded aging up to this point. But that said, I don't like what I see coming down the road!
buttersstochfan-5956 9 points 17h ago
I’m in my 40s right now and feel slightly like an adult.
WirelessBCupSupport 19 points 16h ago
Oh it Depends. Wait till your piss drips instead a clean shutoff. Or hair thins out. And gums recede. Then the hair growing in your ears and nostrils. The moles and skin tags increase. The night sweats. Your nose gets bigger and so do your ears...oh so subtly. Those cramps or charlie horses? they'll increase...

Getting old sucks.
D74248 3 points 14h ago
My older sister likes to tell me that you are only as old as you act.

But for the fucking knees. That is what makes us old.
P0Rt1ng4Duty 6 points 16h ago
Former small passenger aircraft here. I agree.

If you're going to strap tandem skydiving passengers to your chest as a hobby, retire before folks start calling you 'Skeletor.'
Z010011010 14 points 15h ago
>Former small passenger aircraft here.

Science has gone too far!
P0Rt1ng4Duty 2 points 15h ago
Tandem skydiving was invented in 1983.
JustAnotherDude1990 1 points 3h ago
They require 3rd class medicals, but I do know someone around 70-72 still taking people on tandems.

Source: am tandem skydiving instructor
whistlingbatter 129 points 1d ago
Passenger overcame PTSD from Macho Grande
EpicSteak 20 points 22h ago
No, I don't think I'll ever get over Macho Grande
the_eluder 3 points 19h ago
Roger, Roger.
_toodamnparanoid_ 5 points 22h ago
I don't think he'll ever get over Macho Grande.
fumor 2 points 1h ago
So Howie survived?
raxnbury 674 points 1d ago
79 year old pilot. Really? Even if you’re a really healthy 80 year old isn’t the risk of a sudden acute medical condition damn near a given at that point?
InsideOfYourMind 286 points 1d ago
You must not be familiar with the private flight community. Most of the pilots I grew up w are now that same age and still fly regularly. Takes money and time to be a pilot, retired folks often have a lot of both.
CivilRuin4111 143 points 23h ago
Yeah, my grandfather-in-law has a small plane. Keeps asking me when I’m going to take some lessons so he can leave it to me in the will…

I’ll get right on that when I get a break from supporting his grandkid through school, raising his great grandchildren, and basically trying not to starve.
Kryptosis 83 points 23h ago
Just tell him you got it and sell the plane immediately.
CivilRuin4111 68 points 23h ago
He’s a super nice guy, but very out of touch.

My wife and I joke that he is our version of that old Ron White bit about his wife’s family having money and him waiting for them to die (it’s a joke, we like them very much and wish them long lives).

This guy has a massive RV (like the tour bus style), the plane, a handful of motorcycles, and a giant house in the mountains outside Lynchburg TN.

He has one child of his own (my mother in law) married to a guy that just a few months ago inherited a ski in/out cabin property in Aspen.

My wife is the only Grandkid.

Meanwhile, I’m just grinding away. My side of the family ain’t got shit LOL.

But someday…
jolt_cola 9 points 19h ago
And he'll tell you to cut off that avocado toast and Starbucks lattes
AfraidStill2348 17 points 23h ago
Harrison Ford comes to mind
D74248 6 points 14h ago
Yes. The perfect example. He had done so much for aviation, but he will be remembered for his fuck ups in old age.
LegalAction 8 points 20h ago
Really, when doesn't Harrison Ford come to mind?

Starwars

Indiana Jones

Jack Ryan

Banged Carrie Fisher

Now playing a super cynical psychologist...

There's no reason why anyone shouldn't think about him.
Gordonfromin 7 points 19h ago
This generation of pilots is going to experience a large amount of health related crashes as the years go on.
InsideOfYourMind 6 points 18h ago
Reading the NTSB reports, you’re right.
polgara_buttercup 25 points 23h ago
My son is 19 and his friend is working on his private plane license, so to get hours they fly to Orlando every now and then. The looks they get when 2 teens pull up to the private owner entrance is hilarious. It’s definitely an older person environment. (Friend has a trust from losing his dad to pay for plane)
munchies777 1 points 18h ago
Renting planes is also not that expensive. I have a friend that learned to fly as a teenager, and it was like $120 an hour to rent a small plane like 10-15 years ago. You only paid for the hours it was running too. Still had to pay for gas though.

What is more expensive though is the lessons themselves. These days it's probably like $15k to get your license.
polgara_buttercup 4 points 18h ago
Yeah it’s gone up a lot, renting the plane for 3 days to go to Orlando was I think $3k, plus fuel. He’s working to be a professional pilot, so his trust pays for the plane as it’s considered “educational expenses”
D74248 1 points 14h ago
Young pilot with his girlfriend at our little airport next to a major amusement park. It was summer, and thunderstorms were coming off the Appalachian Mountains. He was being very apologetic while one of the parents was setting up hotel rooms. Girl friend was telling him that they only needed one.

That is all.
Reasonable_Ticket_84 1 points 42m ago
It's also a sign of the times, those people are part of the batch of individuals who were able to afford those private planes well before retirement and they flew them for a long time. So they are attached to them. It's just not possible today for the same quantity of individuals.

We have a problem here in NY where all the public small plane airports are just completely loaded with the planes of geriatrics sitting indefinitely. You can't even do flight school here because there's nowhere to park, lol.
Utter_Rube 1 points 9h ago
Lotta pilots that age got in when they were young. Sixty years ago, it was a shitload cheaper to get into than it is today.
Aviri 105 points 1d ago
Well that's why he was in plane, very few ways of traveling to a hospital faster than that /s
After_Masterpiece532 19 points 1d ago
“24hrs to the day….”

How about on any JFK death anniversaries, no one fucking moves on Martha’s Vineyard and anyone related to the JFK family just don’t do anything—skiing, biking, flying, cars, bridges, boats, trains….
Coomb 6 points 20h ago
It's not like this was a commercial flight. People make their own decisions as to whether they want to fly with an 80 year old just as they make their own decisions as to whether they want to get into a car with an 80 year old.
njibbz 11 points 19h ago
Except you're forgetting that it's not just their life they are risking. They are also risking the lives of everyone on the ground where they may crash. If there wasn't a passenger to save the plane this old guy could have taken out an innocent family in a house, or a bunch of students in a bus. Commerical pilots get forced retirement at a certain age, and requires a a second person in the cockpit in case of incapacitation. Seems like there should be some type of regulation for a private pilot as well.
Coomb 7 points 18h ago
You're not wrong, but an 80 year old driving a car can crash into a house or a bus and kill dozens of people. There's nothing special about the hazard associated with allowing old people to fly small aircraft versus driving.
njibbz 10 points 18h ago
I also believe driving should be better regulated too though (not just age restricted). I've seen so many accidents caused by old people who shouldn't be driving. One intersection in particular where old people have killed people several times.
foxglove0326 4 points 18h ago
Which is why anyone over the age of 65/70 needs to have regular acuity tests to ensure they’re not endangering anyone else with their choice of vehicular travel.
razorirr 2 points 13h ago
So the retirement age that is mandatory for commercial pilots is 67. Instead of arguing that an 80 year old can fly recreationally because they can drive recreationally, set up a annual / biennial test that if they don't take it / fail, they get their licenses stripped.
AlabamaAviator 2 points 15h ago
There is. He has to be checked out medically every year to continue to fly
D74248 3 points 14h ago
Old pilot here. FAA medicals do not test for cognitive decline, which is very subtle.
jmorlin 1 points 9h ago
There is a regulation for private pilots. Not in terms of number of people in the cockpit, but there is a yearly medical exam required that goes way above and beyond what you and I have a typical physical.

Late 70s sounds crazy to be flying a small plane, but honestly if they're still passing a first class medical I'd be more than comfortable getting in the plane with them.
smitteh 6 points 22h ago
Imagine if we let people that old hold other important positions like idk president? no way shit could go sideways
allouiscious -2 points 19h ago
President Biden enters the chat...very slowly.
Consonant 2 points 13h ago
President Trump vomits words profusely
Arylcyclohexy 1 points 2h ago
eh whatever, free cremation
party_benson 32 points 22h ago
Good to see Launchpad McQuack still working for Scrooge
Osiris32 9 points 20h ago
Hey now, Launchpad was a damn good pilot. And capable of some absolutely amazing STOL/VTOL techniques.
party_benson 7 points 20h ago
If it's got wings I can crash it!
whistlingbatter 46 points 23h ago
"The 79-year-old male pilot.."

i think i see the problem here
hondasauce 15 points 20h ago
Harrison’s at it again smh
uknow_es_me 30 points 22h ago
why is this idiot flying a plane when he could be running for president?
johnnycolombia 233 points 1d ago
Sorry, not from the US. Who is this Martha and how big is her vineyard? It seems like migrant buses to planes crash land on the land
apple_kicks 229 points 1d ago
Americans will love this. I’m from uk and always assumed it was some kind of large land or farm owned my Martha Stewart like Lucas owned Skywalker Ranch but that became a hotel thing for her. Til it’s an island and has nothing to do with the celeb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martha%27s_Vineyard
Slavasonic 97 points 1d ago
It’s also not a vineyard. It’s covered in low viney shrubs and that’s where it got the name
Lowflyin 67 points 23h ago
So it's a vine yard .
deepaksn 20 points 1d ago
Ah… just like Rhode Island isn’t an island.
ghostalker4742 34 points 22h ago
Originally it was. It was founded by religious outcasts from Massachusetts, and they settled on the islands of today's RI.

They asked the King of England for legitimacy, and he granted it to them *and* the nearby plantations. That's why their full name ~~is~~ was Rhode Island and Providence Plantations.

Bit of state trivia :)
Osiris32 6 points 20h ago
I'm getting verklempt over here. Talk amongst yerselfs. Rhode Island is neither a road nor an island, discuss.
the_eluder 1 points 19h ago
Aquidneck Island is officially named Rhode Island. That's why the original name of the colony was Rhode Island and Providence Plantations. It was a colony of the actual Rhode Island, and the city and plantations around Providence.
BriefausdemGeist 5 points 22h ago
Sea grapes used to grow along the coastline
Grayfox_OG 13 points 1d ago
Sounds more like Martha's Bush
Dog_is_my_co-pilot1 14 points 23h ago
A very 70s style.
CumBobDirtyPants 36 points 1d ago
Right, if you want to see a location named for Stewart you have to visit Martha's Prison Cell.
MarkHathaway1 21 points 1d ago
She learned some things there and now hangs with Snoop.
Githzerai1984 2 points 23h ago
I bet she makes the best pruno
DefinitelyNotAliens 6 points 22h ago
American. I totally thought that as a kid!
JohnChimpo7 3 points 20h ago
Actually just a random British person from 1600

It’s an awesome place, btw
johnnycolombia 6 points 1d ago
You and me had the exact same thought, i thought it was martha stewart
ADarwinAward 2 points 19h ago
I grew up on the west coast and as a kid I also thought it was a vineyard owned by Martha Stewart.
ThisGuy-AreSick 1 points 20h ago
Born and raised in California, and I spent half my life thinking the same.
a_pope_on_a_rope 41 points 1d ago
Curiosity arose: Martha was either the mother-in-law or daughter of English explorer Bartholomew Gosnold who found Cape Cod in 1602. Can confirm her vineyard was exquisite.

Martha’s Vineyard is an island county with only 20,000 residents. It is the penultimate smallest county to its neighbor island/county of Nantucket that only has 14,000 people. Therefore the islands are exclusive communities for the wealthy who hold more potent power than in more populous counties.
BriefausdemGeist 9 points 22h ago
There happen to be a lot of wealthy people in both counties, but most of them aren’t there year-round and have suppressed the ability of islanders to actually exist on their own land.
BriefausdemGeist 23 points 1d ago
It’s a fairly large island off the southern coast of Massachusetts
Oddity_Odyssey 8 points 1d ago
This made me giggle
FiendishHawk 4 points 1d ago
It’s a vacation spot in NE USA.
MarkHathaway1 7 points 1d ago
Martha is a recluse. Nobody ever sees her. The vineyard is immense, like Springfield.
azdood85 2 points 19h ago
A lot of rich people visit for a short time, pop champagne all over the place and then are off. Its also covered in thick shrubbery that no one really cares for. How its not covered in crabs at this point has many baffled.
Gen-Jinjur 27 points 20h ago
The cut-off for a valid pilot’s license really should be 70. Yeah, some 80 year olds are sharper than 25 year olds but MOST people lose some cognitive ability and reaction time by 70 and it doesn’t come back.
RavishingRedRN 16 points 19h ago
ALL people lose some cognitive abilities and reaction times by 70. That’s the aging process period.
Cristookie 2 points 14h ago
Maybe just not make it a age limit and just make it a cognition test in general
FlashpointJ24 9 points 18h ago
"Passenger takes controls of small airplane from ailing pilot.."

Oh, that's so cool, the heroic passenger safely landed the plane!

"...and crash lands"

...Oh.
weealligator 24 points 23h ago
And while we’re at it, they should all have their drivers licenses revoked too.
CrashB111 19 points 23h ago
When my dad's mom was in her final years, we had to invoke power of attorney to get her license given up. She'd already been in a few minor fender benders and her reaction times were basically gone. But she insisted she could still drive.
guacharusmaximus 1 points 15h ago
When I was getting my pilot's license in Florida a couple decades back, all my friends were in accidents with old drivers in huge cars. It was a problem.
WhatUp007 29 points 1d ago
I've always said. Flying isn't hard, it's the landing that's tricky.
CivilRuin4111 16 points 23h ago
Taking off is optional, landing is compulsory
Raspberry-Famous 8 points 1d ago
I dunno man, we haven't left one up there yet.
RichieNRich 3 points 1d ago
I'm not afraid of flying - I'm afraid of crashing.
NoBlueNatzys 10 points 1d ago
Crashing isn't a problem, it's the sudden stop that gets you
MarkHathaway1 2 points 1d ago
The last part from about 1,000 feet is indeed the most dangerous since it's still enough of a fall to kill you and you need to be slowing for the actual landing, but slowing is also dangerous because it's speed through the air that keeps your up. Tricky what?
piratecheese13 1 points 19h ago
A plane with the center of lift, too far behind the center of mass will never fly.

The plane, with the center of lift too far in front of the center of mass will fly once
U-GO-GURL- 7 points 19h ago
“The crash happened almost 24 years to the day after a Piper crash killed John F. Kennedy Jr., his wife Carolyn Bessette and her sister Lauren Bessette off Martha’s Vineyard.”

Who cares?
Karl_Havoc2U 10 points 18h ago
I'm guessing they briefly referenced that because it's one of the most memorable small plane crashes in recent memory. Since it famously happened in the same area as this near tragedy, even if the article didn't name-check the JFK Jr crash it still would've come to mind for many people reading who were old enough to be aware of current events when it happened.

Also, JFK Jr didn't really die and the MSM is worried that too many people are wising up to the truth about this.
Omikaye 1 points 5h ago
Hey! My flight out of Martha's Vineyard was cancelled because of this. It's a good thing nobody was seriously hurt. It's a crazy thing to have to land a plane in an emergency like this. It's a good thing they were near enough to a runway for it not to become a major problem.
ScaleEnvironmental27 1 points 5h ago
I do believe they landed with style.
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