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A new study has found that aggression is not always the product of poor self-control but, instead, often can be the product of successful self-control in order to inflict greater retribution. The study used meta-analysis to summarize evidence from existing studies in psychology and neurology. (compass.onlinelibrary.wiley.com)
submitted 1d ago by mvea
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Author: u/mvea
URL: https://compass.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/spc3.12832
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Author: u/mvea
URL: https://compass.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/spc3.12832
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hananobira 734 points 1d ago
As “Why Does He Do That?” points out, most abusive people are somehow able to control themselves at work, at church, with friends. They just mysteriously ‘lose control’ at home. “He is a perfect gentleman and a pillar of the community. No way he could be abusive!”
And somehow when they ‘lose control’ they never destroy their own property, just their target’s.
They can control their aggression perfectly fine, they just are choosing to release it when it wins them the greatest success at terrifying and controlling their target.
And somehow when they ‘lose control’ they never destroy their own property, just their target’s.
They can control their aggression perfectly fine, they just are choosing to release it when it wins them the greatest success at terrifying and controlling their target.
petarpep 252 points 1d ago
One of the most revealing examples of domestic violence and control I remember reading about is the location of wounds. They're somehow both "not in control" enough that they're supposedly turning violent against their will but also in control enough to make sure to hurt you in a place that can be covered up and hidden to protect their reputation.
The abuser would have you believe it's like a child's uncontrolled temper tantrum (although admittedly there are some kids who have learned to do it because their parents give in), or an autistic person's meltdown. But those are often in detriment to the one doing them, if not directly self-destructive. It's easier to tell they don't have control when they're literally sabotaging themselves and their own goals.
The in control abuser however is able to avoid that which would harm them. They're able to steer their actions in the direction they choose.
The abuser would have you believe it's like a child's uncontrolled temper tantrum (although admittedly there are some kids who have learned to do it because their parents give in), or an autistic person's meltdown. But those are often in detriment to the one doing them, if not directly self-destructive. It's easier to tell they don't have control when they're literally sabotaging themselves and their own goals.
The in control abuser however is able to avoid that which would harm them. They're able to steer their actions in the direction they choose.
jereman75 37 points 21h ago
This is interesting and something I’ve never thought about since leaving an abusive spouse. Thinking back, I don’t think she was the type to be in control. She had no regard for where she left marks, and would type explicit threats in messages that would have obvious repercussions. The violence was always under the influence of alcohol though.
AConcernedParent 5 points 14h ago
The booze was a useful patsy to her abuse. It wasn’t her, it was the liquor.
LurkerOrHydralisk 69 points 1d ago
As someone with a violently abusive parent who the entire extended family sees as an angel, this
murderedbyaname 11 points 22h ago
Lived it growing up. They nailed it.
SlouchyGuy 43 points 1d ago
It's not just abusers, any person who's not psychotic tends to show the worst of them in appropriate circusmtances and not in public places. Which is why distiction between psychosis and the rest of disorders is made in the first place
1369ic 7 points 14h ago
And not getting their asses kicked by attacking somebody who has a chance of beating them. I see these videos of people "losing control," and they always seem to lose it against smaller, weaker people. Put a big guy there, and it's like he has a force field around him.
renaudbaud 12 points 21h ago
"Why Does He Do That" is a must read for people in difficult relationship.
hepazepie -2 points 7h ago
Please be careful about gendered language that may perpetuate harmful sexist stereotypes.
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Feudamonia -19 points 1d ago
You're wrong. Women use violence even more than men but do less harm. Also, manipulation isn't typically **deadly** abuse, but it can be abusive.
helpwitheating 101 points 1d ago
This is catalogued well in the book Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft. Based on years of research, Mr. Bancroft showed that abuse isn't about a loss of control - it's to exert control.
OldschoolSysadmin 42 points 23h ago
This reminds me of the research towards the end of the school self-esteem movement that showed bullies often have quite good self-esteem.
FatLeeAdama2 74 points 1d ago
The only way this research works is if we redefine vengeful acts as aggression?
ilovemybrownies 53 points 1d ago
A quote from one of the researchers in the article OP posted in the comments, "Vengeful people tend to exhibit greater premeditation of their behavior and self-control, enabling them to delay the gratification of sweet revenge and bide their time to inflict maximum retribution upon those who they believe have wronged them." So I'm guessing that's the vengeful component.
They also mainly talked about physical interpersonal violence, like leaving bruises in strategic places. So I'm guessing that's what they're defining as aggression here. Pretty narrow but still interesting.
They also mainly talked about physical interpersonal violence, like leaving bruises in strategic places. So I'm guessing that's what they're defining as aggression here. Pretty narrow but still interesting.
LeapYearFriend 15 points 1d ago
more simply, acting out vs holding a grudge.
when i get angry, i usually just yell a loud curse word and then i'm over it 15 minutes later. the longest i've ever been mad about something in my entire life was three days. i can't imagine holding a grudge for weeks or months. how does your head not explode from holding all that anger inside for so long?
when i get angry, i usually just yell a loud curse word and then i'm over it 15 minutes later. the longest i've ever been mad about something in my entire life was three days. i can't imagine holding a grudge for weeks or months. how does your head not explode from holding all that anger inside for so long?
Brock-Leigh 58 points 1d ago
The way you’re characterizing grudges isn’t how they actually are, not for me anyway. I’m not actively angry about that thing 24/7, I am the same level of angry every time that thing is brought to my attention though. Even if I forgot about it for a week or a month as soon as I’m aware of it again I am just as mad about it today as I was when it happened.
LeapYearFriend 11 points 23h ago
it's interesting to hear that perspective.
when i remember a thing that really pissed me off, i can totally say "yeah that was a bad situation" or "wow that person was a jerk" even with a clear mind and benefit of hindsight, but it doesn't make me angry in the actual moment recalling it. i can feel i was totally justified being angry when it happened, but it doesn't get me furious just thinking about it. i can get annoyed but that's really it.
obviously it was bad then, and i'd be pissed if it happened again, but my brain doesn't stamp the branding iron on my rage center just because it randomly reminds me something that was over and done several years ago.
do you think that's how people with grudges operate? rather than being able to let go of things and move on they're just mad about a given event forever as long as they can remember or don't forget about it?
when i remember a thing that really pissed me off, i can totally say "yeah that was a bad situation" or "wow that person was a jerk" even with a clear mind and benefit of hindsight, but it doesn't make me angry in the actual moment recalling it. i can feel i was totally justified being angry when it happened, but it doesn't get me furious just thinking about it. i can get annoyed but that's really it.
obviously it was bad then, and i'd be pissed if it happened again, but my brain doesn't stamp the branding iron on my rage center just because it randomly reminds me something that was over and done several years ago.
do you think that's how people with grudges operate? rather than being able to let go of things and move on they're just mad about a given event forever as long as they can remember or don't forget about it?
zoom-in-to-zoom-out 3 points 1d ago
The authors, I think, are describing a degree of intensity that is beyond thought so to speak. Yes, the person may be able to describe the way they think about using aggression in a tactful way, almost intelligently, but the intelligently, or the language used to present tactfully, is itself a learned behavior. So learned that it's without thought...like breathing. Another smart word for this is called embodied. Trauma is real, it has memory, and is a part of nature as much as healing, growth, and change.
But just as someone can learn, they can relearn. Typically academia likes research to go one way, and appear benevolent, but in reality we're only getting a side of the story.
The story of mental health is apt with evidence of this. Mental health in the US refined itself within psychiatric hospitals throughout the 1800s. Ya know who filled those places? Slaves and poor folk. So it is not lost on me that many of the Mental health descriptions we have and currently use were born out of benevolence but in reality was something much different. I could maybe say many of the treatments provided under the guise of.research and medicine were aggressive, maniacal, bordeline, hysterical, narcissistic, depressive, insert any big mental health word that those slaves and poor folk were labeled and I could probably say the labeler was just as much those things. But of course, with histories of power and control, why would doctors and those in power see their thoughts patterns as anything else but perfection? This is not a fault thing either, this is a responsibility thing.
Learning to notice our internal worlds are impacted by the external, and the external world is there to show us what's inside which is a spectrum of nature that is also outside. Inside there is limitless potential, but we have to be able to be notice that all emotions are human size even though they feel like monsters (big ups to my previous therapist for that one). And we must become curious about our own intensities, whether externally stoked or internally primed.
But just as someone can learn, they can relearn. Typically academia likes research to go one way, and appear benevolent, but in reality we're only getting a side of the story.
The story of mental health is apt with evidence of this. Mental health in the US refined itself within psychiatric hospitals throughout the 1800s. Ya know who filled those places? Slaves and poor folk. So it is not lost on me that many of the Mental health descriptions we have and currently use were born out of benevolence but in reality was something much different. I could maybe say many of the treatments provided under the guise of.research and medicine were aggressive, maniacal, bordeline, hysterical, narcissistic, depressive, insert any big mental health word that those slaves and poor folk were labeled and I could probably say the labeler was just as much those things. But of course, with histories of power and control, why would doctors and those in power see their thoughts patterns as anything else but perfection? This is not a fault thing either, this is a responsibility thing.
Learning to notice our internal worlds are impacted by the external, and the external world is there to show us what's inside which is a spectrum of nature that is also outside. Inside there is limitless potential, but we have to be able to be notice that all emotions are human size even though they feel like monsters (big ups to my previous therapist for that one). And we must become curious about our own intensities, whether externally stoked or internally primed.
LeapYearFriend 1 points 23h ago
"science is biased by the authors" is perhaps the most based takeaway from this. specifically within my circle, everyone seems to take the word of "experts" as unquestionable gospel.
even at its most benevolent and neutral, any science we may know is a product of its time, and with regards to the large chunk of science that isn't, it's often colored by personal bias, agendas, or even corporate paychecks.
even at its most benevolent and neutral, any science we may know is a product of its time, and with regards to the large chunk of science that isn't, it's often colored by personal bias, agendas, or even corporate paychecks.
Metworld 21 points 1d ago
This. Calling it aggression is very confusing and misleading imo.
formerlyanonymous_ 20 points 1d ago
As someone who plays a ton of games and sports in the past, aggression is a strategy and one easily deployed under control. This seemed a very odd word choice and made very little sense until looking more into the article.
Even in the sense of physical and mental manipulation/bullying, I'm not sure why it was ever considered a low control event.
Even in the sense of physical and mental manipulation/bullying, I'm not sure why it was ever considered a low control event.
GepardenK 16 points 1d ago
>I'm not sure why it was ever considered a low control event.
I think the impression comes from stuff like 'snapping'. I.e. going ballistic on someone because they snuck ahead of you in a queue or something.
Anecdodally, I've known some really defensive people as well, that can easily resort to aggression when pressed, and that seems very much to be impulsive/reactionary rather than something born out of self control.
I think the impression comes from stuff like 'snapping'. I.e. going ballistic on someone because they snuck ahead of you in a queue or something.
Anecdodally, I've known some really defensive people as well, that can easily resort to aggression when pressed, and that seems very much to be impulsive/reactionary rather than something born out of self control.
jetro30087 1 points 1d ago
A vengeful act requires that the target to have slighted the person in some way first. If they are acting first, it's not vengeance.
GRCooper 62 points 1d ago
Successful self control in order to inflict greater retribution?
So, science has discovered the United States Marine Corps?
So, science has discovered the United States Marine Corps?
GoodbyeSHFs 5 points 1d ago
Exactly, remain calm and beat ass if someone steps out of line.
West_Engineering_80 -6 points 18h ago
No, because they submitted. I don’t need a gang.
mvea [OP] 21 points 1d ago
I’ve linked to the primary source, the journal article, in the post above. In this comment, for those interested, here’s the link to the press release: https://news.vcu.edu/article/2023/07/cnew-study-from-vcu-finds-aggression-can-arise-from-successful-self-control
AConcernedParent 3 points 14h ago
My ex was like this. She could contain herself in public but I knew I was gonna get it the moment we got back home. A flood of verbal, emotional, and psychological abuse and manipulation she’d blame on her BPD and I’d think to myself “well if this is so uncontrollable you sure are controlled enough to keep it under wraps until there are no witnesses to it”.
TheApprenticeLife 25 points 1d ago
This reminds me of a question I heard years ago:
"Who should you be more afraid of? The irate customer, aggressively yelling at an employee? Or the straight faced employee, that quietly takes the abuse, from customers like this, every single day?"
"Who should you be more afraid of? The irate customer, aggressively yelling at an employee? Or the straight faced employee, that quietly takes the abuse, from customers like this, every single day?"
IllBiteYourLegsOff 12 points 21h ago
I'm a nurse I hope people aren't afraid of me
codeByNumber 7 points 21h ago
You have needles though…spooky
TalkOfSexualPleasure 0 points 19h ago
As someone who was a very sickly child who went through a lot of miserable medical procedures, I'm always going to be terrified of you. Every single time. It's nothing personal, though most of us are just afraid of going to the doctor.
TheRealBlerb 1 points 9h ago
We are. If you’re an ER nurse, you should be afraid of yourself
Daflehrer1 0 points 23h ago
Machiavelli wins again!
intergalacticbro -9 points 21h ago
Idk man. Humans have been humans for thousands of years. Why are psych papers constantly trying to rework how humans are? A "paradigm" shift is more unlikely than a superficial cultural shift.
At some point they're going to run out of thesis ideas relating to human behavior and it awfully looks like this paper is reflecting that sentiment. Hell, more than half of psychology studies fail the reproducibility test.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication\_crisis
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2015.18248
At some point they're going to run out of thesis ideas relating to human behavior and it awfully looks like this paper is reflecting that sentiment. Hell, more than half of psychology studies fail the reproducibility test.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication\_crisis
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2015.18248
GoodTrouble30 8 points 20h ago
Totally get where you're coming from. It does seem like we're endlessly reinventing the wheel with psych studies. But remember, humans are complex and evolving, so our understanding of the mind needs to evolve too. That said, the replication crisis is indeed a big issue. It's something the field needs to address, no doubt about it. It's not just about new theses, it's about refining and confirming what we already "know".
Sidus_Preclarum 0 points 19h ago
I'm still reading this as this is the result of fkn arseholes.
RentedPineapple -3 points 18h ago
The link posted only has the abstract, here is a link to the full study: file:///C:/Users/16044/Downloads/AggAsSelfControl\_ReRevisedManuscript\_ForPsyArxiv.pdf
pasdesoucisson 1 points 5h ago
I miss the TLDRs by some of the good folks on here...
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